Ol' Blue has a ways to go

[Ted]

I would NEVER use that stuff. You can go to Napa, Autozone, etc. and rent (for free) a combustion gas tester. That way you can find out if you have a very small head gasket leak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHp5E7XnbXo

Others have suggested common areas for coolant leaks. Sometimes if they are slow then they can take some effort to find, but it is worth finding out.

I would never use that stuff unless I had a vehicle that I specifically didn't care about.

I've got 246k on my 2004 Avalanche. Hoping to get 300k. If I get there ill shoot for 350k.

That's excellent to hear. My wife has said she never wants to get rid of hers, so it's my job to keep it going.

 

[denverpilot]

You can keep anything working if you're constantly rebuilding it.

 

[Ted]

You can keep anything working if you're constantly rebuilding it.

Well, you do get into questions of how much work you want to put into something. We were just talking about this with the Suburban we picked up for my brother-in-law. At 142,300, it's at the point where little things are starting to go. I've done the fuel pump, both serpentine belts and tensioners (those were more good items to do rather than mandatory), flushed the power steering fluid (I think the old stuff was original), and cleaned the throttle body. He'll need to flush the transmission and brake fluids, plus coolant. Also put in new door hinge pins (door is sagging - common GM truck problem), and really just keep up with the items as they go. If he does, the basic drivetrain should be good for a long while to go.

My 1995 Suburban I bought at 197,000 miles, and the previous owner had done none of those items as they wore out. By the time I sold it at 225,000 miles, it was practically a brand new truck, but I just gave up when the transfer case went out and I found a great deal on a 2000 Excursion with 90,000 miles. This was about the time when gas hit $4/gallon the first time. Excursions were worthless, but Suburbans still held their value.

 

[N747JB]

You can keep anything working if you're constantly rebuilding it.

Like airplanes???

 

[denverpilot]

Like airplanes???

Heh. That's where I was headed. Yup.

All you need is a data plate and those pickup trucks can last forever. (Not so sure about the crappy cars...)

So what's the group consensus on dollars spent over X years on maintenance once that value exceeds the worth of the vehicle?

Right now, with two trucks that are both worth well less than 1/4 of the price of a new one (with barely newer technology in the new one, if at all), and the most expensive replacement part (engine) still pricing lower than the vehicle... the decision to keep driving them looks to be completely sound, until labor costs are factored in.

Labor to replace an engine or transmission is still lower than the difference to new vehicle by a loooong shot. So...

Keep driving the beaters, I say! (Unless you need a different type of vehicle.)

A phrase dad used to say fits well...

"You only drive a new car, once."

I honestly boggle at people financing new cars on 7 year loans.

 

[Alexb2000]

Heh. That's where I was headed. Yup.

All you need is a data plate and those pickup trucks can last forever. (Not so sure about the crappy cars...)

So what's the group consensus on dollars spent over X years on maintenance once that value exceeds the worth of the vehicle?

Right now, with two trucks that are both worth well less than 1/4 of the price of a new one (with barely newer technology in the new one, if at all), and the most expensive replacement part (engine) still pricing lower than the vehicle... the decision to keep driving them looks to be completely sound, until labor costs are factored in.

Labor to replace an engine or transmission is still lower than the difference to new vehicle by a loooong shot. So...

Keep driving the beaters, I say! (Unless you need a different type of vehicle.)

A phrase dad used to say fits well...

"You only drive a new car, once."

I honestly boggle at people financing new cars on 7 year loans.

There is a lot that goes into that decision.

Assuming you pay retail for repair work. You finance vehicles and would have to put most repairs >$1000 on a credit card. You NEED your vehicle to get to work, etc.

Then trading at around 4-5 years old and 75K is a good policy IMO.

The vehicle is still financeable to another person (important). When it becomes a cash vehicle it drops in value pretty fast.

You can still be under warranty with certain vehicles so no big repair bills.

Maintenance other than the basics doesn't add one dime of value. You lose 100% of every dollar. Do the oil changes, maybe a battery, etc. Nothing more.

Finance rates are basically zero vs. a credit card rate for repairs of ~25%

Trading cuts out any interaction with one of the most potentially crooked groups you might ever deal with, car mechanics.

 

[Ted]

It depends a lot on the vehicle. Some will go to 150-200k pretty much trouble-free if you do regular maintenance. One of my friends has a GMC Envoy pushing 200k now, and he's only had to have it towed probably twice. Does all fluid changes on schedule and has the dealer look over it for mechanical items that are starting to go, and changes preemptively. He's certainly still well ahead of having payments, and it's proven reliable.

When you get to major repairs like an engine, though, I think the benefit goes way down unless you can do it yourself. And if you can, then you run into other issues like downtime. On my Mitsubishi, even if I have a donor engine sitting there ready it will be at least a 2 weekend project, more likely 3-4 to be pessimistic. At that point I effectively need another car anyway to drive to work - I'm not going to monopolize my wife's truck.

 

[Alexb2000]

It depends a lot on the vehicle. Some will go to 150-200k pretty much trouble-free if you do regular maintenance. One of my friends has a GMC Envoy pushing 200k now, and he's only had to have it towed probably twice. Does all fluid changes on schedule and has the dealer look over it for mechanical items that are starting to go, and changes preemptively. He's certainly still well ahead of having payments, and it's proven reliable.

When you get to major repairs like an engine, though, I think the benefit goes way down unless you can do it yourself. And if you can, then you run into other issues like downtime. On my Mitsubishi, even if I have a donor engine sitting there ready it will be at least a 2 weekend project, more likely 3-4 to be pessimistic. At that point I effectively need another car anyway to drive to work - I'm not going to monopolize my wife's truck.

What if that Envoy lost the transmission tomorrow morning? If your friend could just go down and write a check for a new car without missing a beat, OK. Or perhaps they have several vehicles and could just use another one, OK. OR, they know a guy that used to be a professional mechanic, now an engineer/pilot who could help them out cheap.

It always depends on the situation.

Mitsubishi engine replacements are not hard as long as you have hands the size of a asian school girl with fingers like a bamboo snake.

 

[Ted]

What if that Envoy lost the transmission tomorrow morning? If your friend could just go down and write a check for a new car without missing a beat, OK. Or perhaps they have several vehicles and could just use another one, OK. OR, they know a guy that used to be a professional mechanic, now an engineer/pilot who could help them out cheap.

It always depends on the situation.

Mitsubishi engine replacements are not hard as long as you have hands the size of a asian school girl with fingers like a bamboo snake.

He could go out and write a check for a new vehicle, but let's say he couldn't. Then he could go down and get financed for a new vehicle pretty much just as easily as he could with a lower mile vehicle, and his truck will be worth a few hundred bucks at scrap. The overall cost difference is still more in his favor than if he traded it at 75k.

But, like my wife, he loves his truck and has absolutely no desire to replace it. He's not found anything he likes as much. So that does influence things some.

Doing anything on a Mitsubishi is an exercise in inventing new swear words to properly convey your frustration. But once you get used to it, well, it's still bad.

That said, I really enjoy driving the car. Which is why I still have it in spite of its negative attributes.

 

[Skylane81E]

He could go out and write a check for a new vehicle, but let's say he couldn't. Then he could go down and get financed for a new vehicle pretty much just as easily as he could with a lower mile vehicle, and his truck will be worth a few hundred bucks at scrap. The overall cost difference is still more in his favor than if he traded it at 75k.

But, like my wife, he loves his truck and has absolutely no desire to replace it. He's not found anything he likes as much. So that does influence things some.

Doing anything on a Mitsubishi is an exercise in inventing new swear words to properly convey your frustration. But once you get used to it, well, it's still bad.

That said, I really enjoy driving the car. Which is why I still have it in spite of its negative attributes.

I'm driving an 8 year old dodge station wagon with 92k on the clock. My first car and I want it to end up like Angie's fathers first car still around. A 70s cutlass supreme drop top, odo reads 85,xxx but has rolled over twice. Now that her father has passed her brother drives it.

 

[Ted]

I'm driving an 8 year old dodge station wagon with 92k on the clock. My first car and I want it to end up like Angie's fathers first car still around. A 70s cutlass supreme drop top, odo reads 85,xxx but has rolled over twice. Now that her father has passed her brother drives it.

I'd planned that originally with my first car (an 82 Jaguar XJ-S V12), but ended up deciding better of it when the rust won out and the engine was consuming more oil than gas as a result of the piston rings that were no longer there, or at least not doing anything useful. In the past 10 years I've flipped something like 30 vehicles total.

I'm now at the point of wanting to just have and keep vehicles for a long time, having found some that work really well for us.

 

[Skylane81E]

That's the way the magnum is, carries everything I need, while looking and sounding good and being fun to drive.

 

[CJones]

After not seeing a puddle on the ground, your first assumption should be anything short of a major hose leak.

A common failure point is the water pump, but very few leaks will make puddles unless they are huge. Most water pumps have a weep hole to vent coolant that makes it past the seal. Look for corrosion around this hole.

Also look for crusty deposits around joints on the radiator and heater core. Replace the thing that has crusty deposits on it.

There are two really easy tests for blown head gaskets. First, if coolant is leaking into the oil, it will be really obvious. Check the dipstick. If it's just a tiny bit of leakage, you'll see it condense on the inside of the oil cap. Looks like Vaseline. Second, coolant can breach into the cylinders -- this will make clouds of persistent white smoke out the tailpipe, even after the engine is fully warmed. Exhaust will also make its way into the coolant; you can see the bubbles if you idle with the rad cap off. If none of that is present, a head gasket leak is very unlikely, and it has little consequence. If your coolant isn't going into the oil or the cylinders or to the outside where you can see it, it's not explaining your coolant loss.

You can put fluorescent dye to help find the leak, but I've never found that truly necessary.

Use stop leak only if you can't make a real repair. Many vehicles use sized orifices to control coolant flow through the head(s). Excessive stop-leak can interfere with this. You can also partially clog the radiator, leading to poor cooling performance in heavy traffic.

Wellp, I did the deed and put a bottle of Stop Leak in on the way home from work yesterday. Didn't think to check it right after the drive. Let it sit overnight and it lost over half of the reservoir capacity. Still no puddle under the car, so it's losing it under pressure. No white smoke, so probably a pin hole blowing down low somewhere as there isn't any antifreeze smell happening.

I replaced the water pump two years ago when I did the timing belt - it is tucked behind the timing belt on VW's, so I did it as a precaution while I had the front end torn apart for the timing belt.

I'll probably poke around a bit this evening to see if it is a relatively easy fix, but this thing definitely doesn't "owe" me anything. I've been kicking around the idea of getting rid of the car in favor of a mid-size SUV that fits me a little better anyway, so this will force me to break out the checkbook.

 

[MAKG1]

Well, that sucks.

Does the system pressurize at all? Squeeze the upper rad hose when the engine is hot (running or not).

The system should stay under pressure for some time after a hot shutdown. And you can take a flashlight under the hood and under the car (even in daylight) and look for small amounts of steam. It's best to do this with the engine off, but you can do it CAREFULLY with a running engine as long as the wheels are firmly blocked and you keep your fingers and flashlight away from moving parts like drivebelts and the fan.

VW cooling systems suck as a rule. They are complex, failure prone, and relatively difficult to repair. And they usually take "weird" fluids, and eat hoses if you put the regular green stuff in.

My weirdest VW cooling system failure was apparently a little bit of grit that got into the system for a long time (probably old stop-leak!). The water pump impeller blew it against the aluminum housing, and eventually wore a pinhole right behind the water pump. That was identified by finding the steam jet after shutdown. PITA to change; all the engine accessories had to come off as that housing bolts to the block underneath all their brackets. But it was fixed and it runs now with fine cooling system pressure.

 

[Ted]

I vote for water until it explodes, or you could sell it to the junkyard now for a few hundred bucks while it runs.

What happened to the Jeeps?

 

[Alexb2000]

sell it to the junkyard now for a few hundred bucks while it runs.

This. Likely to become the pandora's box of repairs.

 

[CJones]

Well, that sucks.

Does the system pressurize at all? Squeeze the upper rad hose when the engine is hot (running or not).

The system should stay under pressure for some time after a hot shutdown. And you can take a flashlight under the hood and under the car (even in daylight) and look for small amounts of steam. It's best to do this with the engine off, but you can do it CAREFULLY with a running engine as long as the wheels are firmly blocked and you keep your fingers and flashlight away from moving parts like drivebelts and the fan.

VW cooling systems suck as a rule. They are complex, failure prone, and relatively difficult to repair. And they usually take "weird" fluids, and eat hoses if you put the regular green stuff in.

My weirdest VW cooling system failure was apparently a little bit of grit that got into the system for a long time (probably old stop-leak!). The water pump impeller blew it against the aluminum housing, and eventually wore a pinhole right behind the water pump. That was identified by finding the steam jet after shutdown. PITA to change; all the engine accessories had to come off as that housing bolts to the block underneath all their brackets. But it was fixed and it runs now with fine cooling system pressure.

Yeah.. I'm pretty sure this will be my last VW. This one has lasted to 240k, but it has required some repairs that I thought "WTF!? How did THAT break/wear out!?" Luckily, I am pretty handy with a crescent wrench and BFH, so I've been able to do the work myself instead of paying premium VW repair shop/parts prices.

I'll do a closer inspection this evening - I've been avoiding any more than a quick look under the hood up to this point. The system does pressurize - it gurgles like crazy when I loosen the reservoir cap.

If it wasn't for being scared about the clutch (5-speed manual), I wouldn't mind dropping a little more money into it, but I know as soon as I put a new radiator or pull the water pump, etc. etc., the clutch will bite the dust the next week. I know that they usually wear out gradually, but if I invest money into it, it will be a 'freak' catastrophic clutch failure. ... at least that's what I'm telling myself to justify a new-to-me vehicle.

 

[CJones]

I vote for water until it explodes, or you could sell it to the junkyard now for a few hundred bucks while it runs.

What happened to the Jeeps?

Not sure what I'll do to be rid of the VW. Need to set up a plan for a new-to-me set of wheels before doing anything yet.

I'm driving the Wrangler right now until I decide if I can get the VW to hold enough water for a to/from work trip.

Sold the Grand Wagoneer a couple of years ago. It was going to take a lot of work to get it to pass emissions and it needed some frame-rot repair that I don't have access to a welding machine to repair.

 

[Skylane81E]

This. Likely to become the pandora's box of repairs.

Most yards around here pay the same running or not

 

[MAKG1]

Most yards around here pay the same running or not

And a few hundred for a 1/4 million mile vehicle is a bit unrealistic. You'll be lucky if it covers the tow.

FYI, clutch jobs are not difficult, just time consuming. And you do NOT need the dealer for anything aside from warranty work.

I don't recommend filling it with water and hoping, as the one time you delay a little bit ('cause traffic sucks or whatever) or the problem worsens, you turn a leaky hose into a blown head. VWs seem reasonably resistant to head damage, but if it were truly unnecessary, it would be an air cooled engine.

VW clutches seem to last forever. I'm still on the factory original. Odometer reads 180K, but it was broken when I got it (long since repaired); I think it's got at least as much mileage as yours. And I drive mountains daily.

Please don't be offended, but I'm going to ask a basic question. Are you sure you filled it all the way? I've seen Barr's plug the reservoir line (and many VW's have pressurized reservoirs that contain the rad cap), to the point that it prevents filling. The reason I ask is that you seem to have otherwise contradictory symptoms -- you seem to have a minor leak but very low fluid. And VW cooling systems can be a challenge to fill completely. Pulling out the temperature probe can help, but make sure you have a spare O-ring if you do that (it's a $1 part).

Also, do you see evidence of the thermostat opening? Lack of that would cause boiling, and you wouldn't find any leak because there isn't any -- the steam vents through the rad cap. It would be a shame to junk a vehicle for an $8 thermostat.

Clutches very seldom go out suddenly. They give a lot of warning, usually slipping under heavy load, high heat, and high RPM (like a jackrabbit start at a red light, where the clutch won't "grab" until you let off the throttle).

 

[Skylane81E]

And a few hundred for a 1/4 million mile vehicle is a bit unrealistic. You'll be lucky if it covers the tow.

All they ask is year make and model. Many even come pick it up free of charge. We did it with Angie's Toyota when it went brain dead on her way to school. I got it AAAed home, diagnosed the problem ($700 ECU in a $500 car) and pronounced the patient dead.

Next day we called the pull and pay yard and the following afternoon they were out with a tow truck and a $300 check.

Same deal when we moved out of ISZ, our old dead snow plow that had been sitting in the weeds for two years brought more than $400, with no doors!

 

[CJones]

And a few hundred for a 1/4 million mile vehicle is a bit unrealistic. You'll be lucky if it covers the tow.

FYI, clutch jobs are not difficult, just time consuming. And you do NOT need the dealer for anything aside from warranty work.

I don't recommend filling it with water and hoping, as the one time you delay a little bit ('cause traffic sucks or whatever) or the problem worsens, you turn a leaky hose into a blown head. VWs seem reasonably resistant to head damage, but if it were truly unnecessary, it would be an air cooled engine.

VW clutches seem to last forever. I'm still on the factory original. Odometer reads 180K, but it was broken when I got it (long since repaired); I think it's got at least as much mileage as yours. And I drive mountains daily.

Please don't be offended, but I'm going to ask a basic question. Are you sure you filled it all the way? I've seen Barr's plug the reservoir line (and many VW's have pressurized reservoirs that contain the rad cap), to the point that it prevents filling. The reason I ask is that you seem to have otherwise contradictory symptoms -- you seem to have a minor leak but very low fluid. And VW cooling systems can be a challenge to fill completely. Pulling out the temperature probe can help, but make sure you have a spare O-ring if you do that (it's a $1 part).

Also, do you see evidence of the thermostat opening? Lack of that would cause boiling, and you wouldn't find any leak because there isn't any -- the steam vents through the rad cap. It would be a shame to junk a vehicle for an $8 thermostat.

Clutches very seldom go out suddenly. They give a lot of warning, usually slipping under heavy load, high heat, and high RPM (like a jackrabbit start at a red light, where the clutch won't "grab" until you let off the throttle).

I'm pretty sure it has been filled several times over the past few days of trouble. After the first time it blew through coolant so quickly, I thought the same thing you are talking about - maybe it had a bubble somewhere and it wasn't "really" full. So I filled it completely full and let it bubble down. Then I filled it again and let it sit with the cap off overnight. Then I started it up and got it to temp and let it sit again for a few hours and checked level again - nothing that would indicated a 'bubble' in the system.

I don't think it's boiling out anywhere, either. I don't see, hear, or smell anything that would suggest boiling - when driving or when stopped - and I can usually detect a leaky heater core long before it becomes a puddle in the floorboard.

At this point, I'm really thinking that it is a leak toward the bottom of the radiator or a lower radiator hose and when it is under driving pressure, it is blowing things out on the belly. That would be the only thing I can think would be happening since I never see steam or dripping from the front of the engine when I have looked under the hood. I'll pull it in the garage tonight and give it a better look-over.

 

[MAKG1]

Keep in mind that the pressure is the same right after stopping as it is while driving. It's regulated by the rad cap. So, if pressure is causing a blow-out, it should still be there right after you shut off.

A lower rad hose is a reasonable hypothesis -- and it's cheap and relatively easy to fix. The radiator, less so. It should be easy to confirm visually even if the hose is not leaking at the time of inspection.

 

[jsstevens]

[snip]

Clutches very seldom go out suddenly. They give a lot of warning, usually slipping under heavy load, high heat, and high RPM (like a jackrabbit start at a red light, where the clutch won't "grab" until you let off the throttle).

Except when they don't warn you. I had a 5-speed '85 Honda Civic Wagon. One day I pushed the clutch in and the car made a bang and started to creep forward. For a couple of days I nursed it along (didn't have money for a fix right then). The clutch would not fully disengage. I first suspected the linkage, but after checking that and finding nothing wrong I just scratched my head. When the mechanic took it apart he found one of the springs in the clutch plate (takes up some of the force from the engagement) had failed, popped out and got stuck between the clutch and the flywheel. I had to have a new flywheel and a clutch (pressure plate, etc.) put in. Of course I think that's a rare failure. It's certainly the only time it's ever happened to me. But it can happen...


John

Edited for slepping.:wink2:

 

[denverpilot]

Yeah.. I'm pretty sure this will be my last VW. This one has lasted to 240k, but it has required some repairs that I thought "WTF!? How did THAT break/wear out!?" Luckily, I am pretty handy with a crescent wrench and BFH, so I've been able to do the work myself instead of paying premium VW repair shop/parts prices.

I'll do a closer inspection this evening - I've been avoiding any more than a quick look under the hood up to this point. The system does pressurize - it gurgles like crazy when I loosen the reservoir cap.

If it wasn't for being scared about the clutch (5-speed manual), I wouldn't mind dropping a little more money into it, but I know as soon as I put a new radiator or pull the water pump, etc. etc., the clutch will bite the dust the next week. I know that they usually wear out gradually, but if I invest money into it, it will be a 'freak' catastrophic clutch failure. ... at least that's what I'm telling myself to justify a new-to-me vehicle.

Karen's VW has had more money spent in repairs than the car was worth, brand new... and she bought it new. I'd never touch one ever again.

She's driving it still, on the 2nd transmission, and I want to dump it. She still likes it. I joke with her if it leaves her somewhere she can hitchhike home.

Anyway... she's agreed that I can hunt for an SUV for her... but too busy to do the big hunt for a "deal" right now. That stupid VW dies, she can drive the Subaru.

 

[rottydaddy]

Interesting side note about DIY service/repair vs. paying "Tony" or whoever:
I spent some time working on the Chevy truck today, putting the dash back together and patching some of the rusted-through floor and door sill areas with fiberglass (no welder, and no, I don't expect it to last very long).
I then crawled underneath to have a good look around, and found a couple of interesting things... for starters, the two bolts that mate the trans mount to the trans itself (actually the 4WD transfer case) were MIA, and the whole drivetrain was off-center about an inch, being free to slide back and forth. Hmmm, that might explain the loud CLUNK when you put the truck in Drive. Managed to lever the trans on-center, replaced the bolts, and no more clunk. That was easy. I didn't even have to go buy bolts- had a couple lying around that fit.

Also found a bolt missing where the bell housing mates to the engine. But again, I had a suitable replacement handy.
I mention these things because I am pretty sure this beast has only been serviced by pros. A few weeks ago, I also found all the spark plugs were gapped totally wrong for the engine. I think the previous owner being a blonde woman and not very mechanical-minded could account for these service faux pas going unnoticed.

I also checked the odo today, and it reads 66K and change. But this is one of those odometers with no 100K tumbler... it could be 166K, could be 266K. There's oil leaking somewhere... all the oil pan bolts were a little loose, but it's probably the gasket. Rear differential seal might be shot, too... oil seen there, and it doesn't seem to be coming back from the engine. I need to check the level to be sure, but the access bolt for that is not going to come out without a fight. Right-hand manifold has a couple of cracks, but some JB Weld seems to have corrected that for the near future. I'll probably replace both manifolds, maybe with headers... the smog pump has no belt and is seized up; despite this, it's passed NJ emissions a few times, so I want to pull all that junk out anyway... and I'm sure the air tubes would be murder to get off those rusty old manifolds. Easier to just replace them. the entire exhaust system, in fact, needs to be replaced pretty soon. But if I can get it through the inspection, it'll do as is for a while.
All in all, it's a pretty solid machine... starts easily, idles well, no smoke, no cracks in the frame, and no severe rust in any critical structural areas. And the price was right...

 

[Ted]

Servicing by pros doesn't necessarily mean it will be in great shape. Depends on the shop, the individuals, etc.

The big issue, though, is willingness to pay of the customer and how often he or she comes in. At my shop, we could make vehicles like new or better. We didn't have a lot of customers willing to pay that price, though.

Meanwhile, when I'm working myself and not paying $65+/hr I'm more willing to spend a few hours on a silly problem that I could live with, but fixing it just takes time and $5.

 

[rottydaddy]

Servicing by pros doesn't necessarily mean it will be in great shape. Depends on the shop, the individuals, etc.

The big issue, though, is willingness to pay of the customer and how often he or she comes in. At my shop, we could make vehicles like new or better. We didn't have a lot of customers willing to pay that price, though.

Sure, but would you skip the upper bolts when changing a transmission mount in order to keep a customer's bill down? That, and the wrong plug gaps, are examples of sheer incompetence or laziness.

 

[Ted]

Sure, but would you skip the upper bolts when changing a transmission mount in order to keep a customer's bill down? That, and the wrong plug gaps, are examples of sheer incompetence or laziness.

Certainly we didn't do crappy work to keep a bill low. We did the work we were instructed to do by the customer. It sounds like these folks were lazy/incompetent. Hence my point that a good individual owner can have good (often better) results by doing his/her own work.

All comes down to who's turning the wrenches.

 

[MAKG1]

Sure, but would you skip the upper bolts when changing a transmission mount in order to keep a customer's bill down? That, and the wrong plug gaps, are examples of sheer incompetence or laziness.

Careful....

Plug gaps widen with use. They'll widen quite a lot before they start misfiring. And if the plugs are that bad, check the distributor cap.

If they were narrow, that's a Foxtrot Uniform.

I've found a lot of "professional" FUs over the years. My fave was when the alignment shop forgot to tighten the tie rod sleeves on my Exploder. I always inspect before a road trip, so I found it a few hours later. Attention to detail....

 

[Ted]

I'd be lying if I said that as a pro my work was 100% perfect. But did have a very small percentage of returns because I did enough checks to make sure I had it right before the customer took it back. Our frequent customers would come in and request that I do some of the harder and more prone to screw up jobs since I didn't screw them up..

Like with airplane mechanics, I've seen some automotive shops that will do no functional checks or test drives, just hand keys back. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

 

[denverpilot]

Careful....

Plug gaps widen with use. They'll widen quite a lot before they start misfiring. And if the plugs are that bad, check the distributor cap.

If they were narrow, that's a Foxtrot Uniform.

I've found a lot of "professional" FUs over the years. My fave was when the alignment shop forgot to tighten the tie rod sleeves on my Exploder. I always inspect before a road trip, so I found it a few hours later. Attention to detail....

Heck, for my GMC, the plugs come pre-gapped and the manufacturers say to leave them alone or you'll break them or damage the sharp tip on the center conductor. The electronic ignition system takes care of it.

You replace them only on mileage or if misfiring occurs and a computer code is logged, per GM.

I still bend the outer conductor carefully to at least match them all up. But technically I don't need to.

 

[Skylane81E]

Heck, for my GMC, the plugs come pre-gapped and the manufacturers say to leave them alone or you'll break them or damage the sharp tip on the center conductor. The electronic ignition system takes care of it.

You replace them only on mileage or if misfiring occurs and a computer code is logged, per GM.

I still bend the outer conductor carefully to at least match them all up. But technically I don't need to.

That is what I'm supposed to do, every 100k take the plugs out and replace them with new strait from the box, no gaping.

 

[tonycondon]

not only did ol' blue get new tires yesterday but i also filled the gas tank. it will never be worth as much as it was yesterday.

 

[VanDy]

That is what I'm supposed to do, every 100k take the plugs out and replace them with new strait from the box, no gaping.

Every 100k? Mine made it to 180k and still fired and looked ok!

Ok maybe didn't look too good

-VanDy

 

[Skylane81E]

Dodge says 100k on platinums

 

[VanDy]

Dodge says 100k on platinums

I have no idea what Chevy recommends, I just roll with it. 180k+ all I have ever done is 1 set of brakes, 1 set of tires, a coolant temp sensor and oil changes. Hope it makes it until I pay it off


-VanDy

 

[Maxmosbey]

Guy in my Jeep club says that if you can't figure out what's wrong, blow it up. The harder they blow up, the more obvious the problem becomes. Then you can fix it. Just one way to look at it I guess.

 

[Skylane81E]

Big thing with the newer cars is a mechanic willing to use the diagnostic equipment and information at hand.

My dads Liberty broke down in Colorado and the local dealership couldn't fix it. He had to tow it home behind a rental truck. Local dealer had it fixed in less than an hour, plugged in the computer, it said bad cam sensor so he replaced it, presto

 

[Skylane81E]

I have no idea what Chevy recommends, I just roll with it. 180k+ all I have ever done is 1 set of brakes, 1 set of tires, a coolant temp sensor and oil changes. Hope it makes it until I pay it off


-VanDy

Half as many miles and much more work done,

But then again had I been eligible I would have taken the E street prepared championship with it a couple of years ago in the SCCA WOR so it hasn't had an easy life.

Example, I have yet to kill a set of brake pads without melting them off