Oh, Crap, Here we go again.

"The Cessna pilot was a student pilot who initially took off from Warrenton, Virginia, the Federal Aviation Administration confirmed.'

Oh, is his CFI going to hear about it. :incazzato:
 
Two fighter jets for some poor schlub who got lost. What're we coming to?
 
Oh Heck... I hope that wasn't one of my flight schools planes. I don't think we've got a 182 out there in Warrenton, so with any luck it's not.
 
And the latest news is...

A C172, student pilot, lost. DID NOT PENETRATE THE FRZ but did bust the bravo and was headed for the FRZ at the time of the intercept.

From my flight school... It's sobering, because the CFIs are generally held in high esteem by the community - they're all folks who teach because they want to teach, and they have the highest pass rate in the area. If one of their students can mess up this badly, what happens if I become one of those CFIs? Kind of sobering.
 
TMetzinger said:
And the latest news is...

A C172, student pilot, lost. DID NOT PENETRATE THE FRZ but did bust the bravo and was headed for the FRZ at the time of the intercept.

From my flight school... It's sobering, because the CFIs are generally held in high esteem by the community - they're all folks who teach because they want to teach, and they have the highest pass rate in the area. If one of their students can mess up this badly, what happens if I become one of those CFIs? Kind of sobering.
Click to expand...

Last I heard, perfection was still a difficult and usually unattainable goal for mere mortals. People make mistakes -- sometimes big ones -- especially students.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Last I heard, perfection was still a difficult and usually unattainable goal for mere mortals. People make mistakes -- sometimes big ones -- especially students.
Click to expand...

Been there, Done that.

Just after my PPL, my best friend and I, (he was a student pilot at the time, returning from upstate NV headed south toward VGT (North Las Vegas). It was turning dark and we got our navigation a little wrong and almost busted the (non-existent) Area 51 airspace. There's actually 2 parts to that airspace, if I remember correctly (not looking at the charts). The Eastern segment is restricted, I think, and there's a Western segment that is prohibited. Again, this is from memory and was several years ago.

There we were flying along and as we passed a mountain ridge which was on our left when we went out, we noticed it was on our left on the way back in. Just as we were asking ourselves, "Hey, shouldn't that mountain be on our right?" we noticed the B-52 Bombers about 2 o'clock high. Then, all of a sudden, they disappeared (I mean flew away).

Of course, we immediately began climbing, and turning and talking. Eventually we got through to Nellis AFB. Needless to say, they were not amused. I got reamed in the air, told to call immediately after landing. No fighter pilots. I was obviously turning away from the airspace (I may have clipped the restricted a bit while turning away but I've never been completely sure). Then, to add insult to injury, I got disoriented in the dark and couldn't find the airport because of all the Vegas lights (and probably being mentally flustered). Had to be vectored practically to the runway. Of course, that particular night the runway in use was one I had never landed on. Oy, what a night.

Overall I got off light. Fortunately, one of the DEs around was a friend. Called me to his house immediately and explained how to file the NASA report, don't wait, be proactive, etc. Filed the NASA report, had an 'interview' at the FSDO, was contrite, absolutely willing to do whatever they wanted, completely cooperative, etc., had to do some remedial night flying and night navigation training.

FYI: In NV, AR, etc. It's all desert and mountains. Once you're outside the cities, even in daytime, unlimited VFR, you need your nav skills working because it's often really hard to tell where you are just by pilotage. At night, it's just inky blackness. Even when there's a moon, all you see is mottled darkness on the ground. That's one of the main reasons to become IFR. Out here, it really makes a difference.

Anyway, it all worked out but it was definitely a lesson - several lessons actually.:eek:

Be Well,

Jimmy
 
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bbchien said:
44709 for the CFI.
Click to expand...

44709?

As a side note, everyone can make a mistake. We all try not to, of course, but it will happen. No one was hurt or killed. Hopefully it just leads to a little better navigation training and no permanent trouble.
 
TMetzinger said:
And the latest news is...

A C172, student pilot, lost. DID NOT PENETRATE THE FRZ but did bust the bravo and was headed for the FRZ at the time of the intercept.
Click to expand...

I don't fly out there so I don't know the airspace or the special rules, but am I interpretting it correctly that he wasn't doing anything wrong until he busted the bravo?

If so, roughly how long does it take for a 172 to fly from the edge of the bravo to the FRZ? Assuming (probably incorrectly) that they sent the fighters after him as soon as he busted the bravo, I'm just trying to get some sense of the response time of the F-16s.
 
While I think that as a student you should be cut more slack, in this case I'm wondering just what happened. From what I've read the plane is a 2003 172S which has a large screen GPS as standard equipment. How do you get that lost in a area where you know you must know where you are because of airspace restrictions? There must be more to this story that we are not hearing yet.
 
bbchien said:
44709 for the CFI.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but what is he supposed to demonstrate? That he knows how to teach the airspace? That he knows how to teach navigation using all available information?

Give a 44709 ride to the designers of the mandatory SFRA course too, since this student took and passed that course as well.

We'll have to see what shakes out and why this student got this lost.
 
Maybe the student likes north up on the GPS, and some bonehead changed it to track up.
 
RJM62 said:
Last I heard, perfection was still a difficult and usually unattainable goal for mere mortals. People make mistakes -- sometimes big ones -- especially students.

-Rich
Click to expand...

And this is apropos to this news how? I have a perfect record of not falling to my death out of trees. I intend to keep that record intact by not climbing trees when I'm drunk. Student pilots should have a perfect record of not busting the Washington DC spooky places because, well, it's pretty important and pretty obvious how not to. In this case, all it takes for perfection is a modicum of attention - unless it was done on purpose.
 
PittsDriver said:
And this is apropos to this news how? I have a perfect record of not falling to my death out of trees. I intend to keep that record intact by not climbing trees when I'm drunk. Student pilots should have a perfect record of not busting the Washington DC spooky places because, well, it's pretty important and pretty obvious how not to. In this case, all it takes for perfection is a modicum of attention - unless it was done on purpose.
Click to expand...

If the DC SFRA, or whatever they're calling it, was drawn on the ground with a giant pen, such that it was visible from the air, I might agree with you. But it isn't, it takes navigational skills to stay out of, and anyone can get lost when they first get going. Up in the air is very disorienting. Sorry, I got lost plenty when I was a student pilot in situations where I wouldn't now. I found my way back by a number of means and didn't bust anyone's airspace, but I got lost.

If people are going to fly in that area, the occasional infraction is nearly inevitable. Human beings make mistakes, like the one about instituting the dumb rules in the first place. Zero tolerance policies work great on paper, but tend to fall down in the real world.
 
EdFred said:
Well no wonder ya got lost. Arkansas is nowhere near Nevada. :D
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LOL. Durn it! So that was the problem all along? Looks like I still need work on that navigation. One of these days I'll get it :eek:. (Opps, I meant AZ, of course... really... I did.)

Be Well,

Jimmy
 
steingar said:
Up in the air is very disorienting. Sorry, I got lost plenty when I was a student pilot in situations where I wouldn't now. I found my way back by a number of means and didn't bust anyone's airspace, but I got lost.
Click to expand...

I'm just gonna guess that you didn't learn how to fly around the DC ADIZ/SFRA though. Students get lost all the time around here too but they still should have had it drilled in to them how to avoid an intercept or the class B even when they're lost. Hey, I'm definitely not a fan of the security theater antics that gets visited upon us constantly being based here. We use all kinds of "big lines on the ground" type of references to make sure we don't get busted - not unlike pilots do everywhere when training near airspace restrictions.

I was just pointing out that it's a little too lenient to say that student pilots make mistakes so - oh, well... If a student doesn't know that the practice area is southwest of the airport, not northeast - and can't tell the difference - then they shouldn't be signed off to solo to the practice area - period.
 
PittsDriver said:
I'm just gonna guess that you didn't learn how to fly around the DC ADIZ/SFRA though. Students get lost all the time around here too but they still should have had it drilled in to them how to avoid an intercept or the class B even when they're lost. Hey, I'm definitely not a fan of the security theater antics that gets visited upon us constantly being based here. We use all kinds of "big lines on the ground" type of references to make sure we don't get busted - not unlike pilots do everywhere when training near airspace restrictions.

I was just pointing out that it's a little too lenient to say that student pilots make mistakes so - oh, well... If a student doesn't know that the practice area is southwest of the airport, not northeast - and can't tell the difference - then they shouldn't be signed off to solo to the practice area - period.
Click to expand...

If someone is lost, how do they know where the DC ADIZ/SFRA is? I suppose if you make certain they are supplied with and conversant with GPS technology it is possible that they might never hit the idiot barrier. However, accoutering them so obviates many of the skills needed for navigational proficiency. Saying someone who is just learning to navigate and see things from the air should at all times know exactly where they are with no exceptions is just plain stupid. Student pilots have been getting lost in airplanes since the invention of the airplane.
 
steingar said:
If someone is lost, how do they know where the DC ADIZ/SFRA is? I suppose if you make certain they are supplied with and conversant with GPS technology it is possible that they might never hit the idiot barrier. However, accoutering them so obviates many of the skills needed for navigational proficiency. Saying someone who is just learning to navigate and see things from the air should at all times know exactly where they are with no exceptions is just plain stupid. Student pilots have been getting lost in airplanes since the invention of the airplane.
Click to expand...

I never said that they should at all times know anything. I just said that it should be possible to train a student flying out of Warrenton not to bust the SFRA or the class B even when they're lost. You're not seriously suggesting that we should be accepting of the training that renders students that do this are you? At a minimum, the instructor and student have some 'splainin' to do. Sure, people aren't perfect and they're going to do stupid things and no about of great training is going to stop that. But the attitude that says this is somehow understandable because it was a student pilot jeopardizes all the flight training that goes on in and around the SFRA. That's all my rebuttal was meant to say - that students training near the SFRA are held to a standard that should make this happen rarely if ever.
 
What you're saying is a student in DC should be able to do better than a student elsewhere than in DC. Utterly stupid. Lost is lost. Arrogance in action, and one of the many reasons that mine will be the last generation of middle class pilots. By the time I stop flying it will be an activity of the very, very rich, due to attrition of everybody else. No one will want to, because by then one wrong turn and you're face down on the ramp with guns and lots of 'spainin to do. And all the other pilots (all three toothless old guys) will be all to happy to jump all over your case, just like you here are doing right now in this here thread. Wanna know why GA is dying? Look in the mirror.
 
steingar said:
What you're saying is a student in DC should be able to do better than a student elsewhere than in DC. Utterly stupid. Lost is lost. Arrogance in action, and one of the many reasons that mine will be the last generation of middle class pilots. By the time I stop flying it will be an activity of the very, very rich, due to attrition of everybody else. No one will want to, because by then one wrong turn and you're face down on the ramp with guns and lots of 'spainin to do. And all the other pilots (all three toothless old guys) will be all to happy to jump all over your case, just like you here are doing right now in this here thread. Wanna know why GA is dying? Look in the mirror.
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Don't know if this thread is the "reason GA is dying," but will agree that an two-ship F-15 escort is a bit much.

These events point out the insanity of the DC SFRA, not the state of student piloting.
 
dmccormack said:
Don't know if this thread is the "reason GA is dying," but will agree that an two-ship F-15 escort is a bit much.

These events point out the insanity of the DC SFRA, not the state of student piloting.
Click to expand...

No doubt about it that it's way over the top. Somebody in this thread basically said "hey, it's understandable - it was a student pilot." I'm made some attempt to point out the fallacy of that line of thinking with respect to airspace, specifically the SFRA were we know that some really ridiculous responses happen.

What you're saying is a student in DC should be able to do better than a student elsewhere than in DC.
Click to expand...

Not at all - well, maybe. If you leaned to fly near some class bravo airspace, I'm going to guess that your instructor did something very similar to what mine did; on every flight, he pointed out that those power lines marked the point at which it was safe to climb above 1500' but below 2500'. Or that just a few miles on the other side of this or that highway, was a restricted area. Or when you're crossing this river from the south you have to be east of that triangle island to stay out of the Bravo. So I don't cross the river unless I see the triangle island and I fly around on the south side of it until I'm not lost.

So is it your intent to point out that students that train near these considerations are no more cognizant or sensitized than those that train in the middle of nowhere? If students are trained around here are instructed properly, they're still going to get disoriented but that know that if they do they should fly that-a-way until they're not - to keep them outta trouble. So I disagree with your assertion that lost is lost. A student can be lost but still know not to fly toward that tall pointy thing sticking up out of the middle of the National Mall.

But more importantly, it's critical that we demand this level of training and perfection from students around here or there won't be any flight training. It's stupid, it sucks, it's irrational, and it's our national policy right now. But to ignore it - that's what's stupid.
 
Another example of what I'm trying to describe - at our home airport we're about 3.5 miles from where a college football game takes place on many Saturday afternoons. This particular football game is treated to a Navy F/A-18 fly-by at exactly 3:30. Students that are trained at our airport should be grilled to know that on Saturday afternoon's when there's a Navy game, that you shouldn't be on the north side of the airport in the pattern or you'll be guilty of invading the implied TFR around sporting events. This is a TFR that you won't even get a NOTAM for. As a pilot you're just supposed to know these things. I'd be willing to bet this airspace is violated way more often by seasoned pilots than the students at our airport. I'm guessing that CFIs near where Ohio plays it's home games probably do the same. So yeah, I'd be very critical of any CFI in that situation that didn't make it point to stress this notion as well as the student that should have known better.
 
And I would expect students who train near mountains to have more mountain flying skills taught than I got. We train for the areas we fly in.
 
chucky said:
And I would expect students who train near mountains to have more mountain flying skills taught than I got. We train for the areas we fly in.
Click to expand...


Absolutely correct. When western pilots come to the east they are appalled that 10 miles visibility is as high as it goes... flying 5 mile vis on a sunny day is not uncommon and I've flown with some pilots who treat it like we're in clouds when really it's just a hazy high pressure day...
 
PittsDriver said:
A student can be lost but still know not to fly toward that tall pointy thing sticking up out of the middle of the National Mall.
Click to expand...

A student can be in the middle of a bunch of nondescript cornfields and blow the ADIZ/SFRA/utter government stupidity zone. Pilots blow bravos all the time, new ones and seasoned ones. Hell, CFIs themselves have gotten lost and crashed after running out of fuel.

No, it isn't good to get lost, and one should be properly trained to navigate. But when someone is just starting out, and has to practice maneuvers that take some degree of attention to complete successfully, they will loose their way. And when someone is navigating in an unfamiliar environment, they will loose their way.

But the bye, the Shoe is in the middle of a class charlie that is nicely demarcated with a big freeway that runs all the way around town. If I busted it ever I would only have myself to blame, you have to be pretty blind to miss it. If such a landmark existed to keep noobs out of the ADIZ/SFRA/utter government stupidity zone, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. There may even be at some airports, but not at all of them.
 
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