Odd Position

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LmannyR

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Luis R
Landed at an airport recently and tower gave me taxi instructions while I was still rolling down. Tower wanted me to turn off on a taxiway but to give way to the aircraft moving from left to right then follow. First time at this airport and read back the taxi instructions. All normal. As I turn off the runway I quickly realize I could not clear the hold short bars in order to let this other plane pass in front of me first. Problem “I” think was another plane landed on the runway while I was still “technically” on the runway and proceeded to the next taxi turn off since I was still waiting for the taxi plane to cross in front of me to follow. I was in a C172 and was absolutely sure my tail was off the actual runway but still, the hold short bars was dead center under my plane. There was NO room to clear the hold short bars. If I did, I would have been on the taxiway blocking the other aircraft that was to cross from left to right.

Hindsight… I should have clarified with the tower that I could not clear the hold short bars in order to give way.

If my passenger didn’t point out someone just landed behind us I would not have thought anything of it really.

Thoughts
 
LmannyR said:
Thoughts
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Was your turnoff at least 3000 feet down the runway from the threshold? If so, another light single can legally land with you still on the runway, no need for you to be clear.
 
flibmeister said:
Was your turnoff at least 3000 feet down the runway from the threshold? If so, another light single can legally land with you still on the runway, no need for you to be clear.
Click to expand...

About 2000 feet or less. Plane who landed behind me was a Caravan I think.
 
LmannyR said:
Landed at an airport recently and tower gave me taxi instructions while I was still rolling down. Tower wanted me to turn off on a taxiway but to give way to the aircraft moving from left to right then follow. First time at this airport and read back the taxi instructions. All normal. As I turn off the runway I quickly realize I could not clear the hold short bars in order to let this other plane pass in front of me first. Problem “I” think was another plane landed on the runway while I was still “technically” on the runway and proceeded to the next taxi turn off since I was still waiting for the taxi plane to cross in front of me to follow. I was in a C172 and was absolutely sure my tail was off the actual runway but still, the hold short bars was dead center under my plane. There was NO room to clear the hold short bars. If I did, I would have been on the taxiway blocking the other aircraft that was to cross from left to right.

Hindsight… I should have clarified with the tower that I could not clear the hold short bars in order to give way.

If my passenger didn’t point out someone just landed behind us I would not have thought anything of it really.

Thoughts
Click to expand...
You did nothing wrong. If it happened just like you describe, the Tower had an Operational Error.
 
How big of a deal is it if you land/takeoff/perform touch and go if someone else in the process of leaving the runway is near the hold short but has not completely cleared it yet?
 
Baked Potato said:
How big of a deal is it if you land/takeoff/perform touch and go if someone else in the process of leaving the runway is near the hold short but has not completely cleared it yet?
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It’s not as long as the expectation is the preceding traffic clears the hold short line before the landing traffic touches down. It sounds like that wasn’t the case here.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
It’s not as long as the expectation is the preceding traffic clears the hold short line before the landing traffic touches down. It sounds like that wasn’t the case here.
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Yup. In this case there were “…restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking…”


CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY−
a. Taxiing aircraft, which is approaching a runway, is clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are held short of the applicable runway holding position marking.
b. A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft, which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking.
c. Pilots and controllers shall exercise good judgment to ensure that adequate separation exists between all aircraft on runways and taxiways at airports with inadequate runway edge lines or holding position markings.
 
LmannyR said:
Landed at an airport recently and tower gave me taxi instructions while I was still rolling down. Tower wanted me to turn off on a taxiway but to give way to the aircraft moving from left to right then follow. First time at this airport and read back the taxi instructions. All normal. As I turn off the runway I quickly realize I could not clear the hold short bars in order to let this other plane pass in front of me first. Problem “I” think was another plane landed on the runway while I was still “technically” on the runway and proceeded to the next taxi turn off since I was still waiting for the taxi plane to cross in front of me to follow. I was in a C172 and was absolutely sure my tail was off the actual runway but still, the hold short bars was dead center under my plane. There was NO room to clear the hold short bars. If I did, I would have been on the taxiway blocking the other aircraft that was to cross from left to right.

Hindsight… I should have clarified with the tower that I could not clear the hold short bars in order to give way.

If my passenger didn’t point out someone just landed behind us I would not have thought anything of it really.

Thoughts
Click to expand...


Did the tower say anything to you as your were holding for your traffic to follow?
 
aterry1067 said:
Did the tower say anything to you as your were holding for your traffic to follow?
Click to expand...

Actually, I remember clarifying with the tower after noticing I couldn’t clear the hold short lines. I asked “where do you want me to go” when I stopped short of the taxiway the other plane was on. He got a little irritated and gave slow instructions emphasizing to give way to the aircraft and follow. So I held position. I didn’t specifically mention “unable to clear hold short line”.

I would not have thought anything of it if I did not know another plane landed behind me.
 
LmannyR said:
Actually, I remember clarifying with the tower after noticing I couldn’t clear the hold short lines. I asked “where do you want me to go” when I stopped short of the taxiway the other plane was on. He got a little irritated and gave slow instructions emphasizing to give way to the aircraft and follow. So I held position. I didn’t specifically mention “unable to clear hold short line”.

I would not have thought anything of it if I did not know another plane landed behind me.
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If the tower didn’t call you out for your tail being across the hole short line, then they were ok with it. They can see you and know where you are. You did the right thing by getting as far off as you could and still holding for your traffic, and you also did the right thing by notifying tower that you were unable to get your entire aircraft across the hold short line…if ever in doubt, always ask ATC for clarification, and that’s what you did.

You’ll also learn that different controllers at the same tower will sometimes see things differently. If that happens at the same field with a different controller, s/he may tell you to taxi further forward.
 
Baked Potato said:
How big of a deal is it if you land/takeoff/perform touch and go if someone else in the process of leaving the runway is near the hold short but has not completely cleared it yet?
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Uncontrolled airport, it's not an issue. You're responsible for safety.

Controlled field - it would be a runway incursion.
 
I used to think that as well, and even did a go around once because the other aircraft had not completely cleared the hold line. Then I heard this situation covered in the Opposing Bases podcast, so I looked it up. Sure enough, ATC can have two landing airplanes on the runway at the same time as long as separation requirements are met per aircraft category.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html

In FAA order JO 7110.65AA - Air Traffic Control section 3.10.3, it states:


  1. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
  1. Separate an arriving aircraft from another aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that the arriving aircraft does not cross the landing threshold until one of the following conditions exists or unless authorized in paragraph 3-10-10, Altitude Restricted Low Approach.
  1. The other aircraft has landed and is clear of the runway. (See FIG 3-10-1.) Between sunrise and sunset, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft has landed, it need not be clear of the runway if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:
 
aterry1067 said:
I used to think that as well, and even did a go around once because the other aircraft had not completely cleared the hold line. Then I heard this situation covered in the Opposing Bases podcast, so I looked it up. Sure enough, ATC can have two landing airplanes on the runway at the same time as long as separation requirements are met per aircraft category.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html

In FAA order JO 7110.65AA - Air Traffic Control section 3.10.3, it states:


  1. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
  1. Separate an arriving aircraft from another aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that the arriving aircraft does not cross the landing threshold until one of the following conditions exists or unless authorized in paragraph 3-10-10, Altitude Restricted Low Approach.
  1. The other aircraft has landed and is clear of the runway. (See FIG 3-10-1.) Between sunrise and sunset, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks and the other aircraft has landed, it need not be clear of the runway if the following minimum distance from the landing threshold exists:
Click to expand...

When I was based at Boundary Bay airport near Vancouver BC I don’t think I ever landed or took off with no other airplane on the runway. It’s one of the busiest airports in Canada and definitely the busiest training airport and tower always had other planes land or take off while the preceding plane was still rolling off the runway. At the worst of times during rush hour it was hard to get a clearance at all.
 
Where is the vasaviation playback?
 
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