Occasional sucky landings

TexasAviation

TexasAviation

Pre-takeoff checklist
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TexasAviation
I got my PPL in November and have thoroughly enjoyed it. It's so much fun being able to go places faster and take friends and family up for sightseeing trips!

Since then, though, I've had two landings that really sucked, both in crosswinds. I *think* I know what the problem was (taking out the crosswind correction when I flare). But it still bugs me that it's happening. I've just got those rare occasions where I can't get my brain, hands and feet all on the same page, so the landing ends up rough. Not dangerous, just uncomfortable and slightly embarrassing.

On Saturday, there was a gusty 10-knot direct crosswind. No biggie. I took off and stayed in the pattern to do a touch-and-go, and the first landing went textbook perfect. I totally greased it, which made me feel like THE MASTER OF CROSSWIND LANDINGS as I showed my passengers how I'd land on one wheel, then two, then three :)

Feeling good about myself, I went on to do about 30 minutes of sightseeing before heading back to the airport. On the next landing, I did a good job on final until the very end, when I flared too early and then took the crosswind correction out for a very ungraceful ending to our flight.

Sounds like a good reason to spend an afternoon in the pattern :)
 
Go buy a Comanche - you expect 'sucky landings' and are generally happily surprised when they are not. . . .
 
You can't nail them all the time. As long as you can use the plane again ,all is good. Don't be to critical on yourself.you should get better the more landings you do.
 
I think I have 80 hours or so and about 1 in 4 landings are terrible. Consistently terrible for inconsistent reasons. I treat all my failures to a learning experience and analyse what I did and try to not do it again.

Also a 10 knot direct crosswind is not an easy landing by any means. You might do one perfect and the other completely wrong, come down hard facing the side of the runway.
 
Try less flaps and come in a little hotter on X-winds.

Fly it on.
 
I'd take a different path. Keep the flaps out and the speed the same but steepen the final approach. You'll have better control.
 
Definitely second reducing use of flaps or doing the crosswind landing without flaps. Last time I had a strong crosswind I didn't use any flaps and just flew the approach at higher speed. Those flaps are like sails and combined with the slower forward momentum make the plane vulnerable to being blown around quite a bit, especially on the last 200 ft.
 
Practice, practice and more practice. I'm working on my CFI and still don't do perfect landings every time.
 
There's a support group for that. It meets at the hanger with the refrigerator and beer.
 
...my best landing was one after my longest break between flights (in my short 2 year flying career...).

As mentioned, any landing you can walk away from is a good one...and even better if you don't have to call the A&P (or the FAA).

:D
 
A hair shy of 300 hours here. Putting the R182 down last week my instructor calls over the radio from the taxiway "those both looked like good landings".

Ass. Haha.

Keep at it!
 
The occasional sucky landing is just part of being a pilot. The important part is to hold yourself to a high standard of performance and reflect on your performance, both good a bad, to always work on doing it better. If you maintain a professional attitude and make a conscious effort to improve you will find, in time, the sucky landings are spaced farther apart and the ones you consider to be sucky are really not all that bad compared to sucky landings today.

As far as changing configuration or approach speeds in high winds there are some things to be careful about. Adding a little speed can help but it can get to a point of diminishing returns if you add to much. In the multi turbine equipment I have flown the flight departments all had maximum amounts we were allowed to add for environmental considerations. The limits generally were around 15% of the calculated approach speed. Also we could reduce flaps some but not eliminate them completely but in the equipment i am referring to flap up landings were emergency procedures so that doesn't necessarily transfer to little airplanes. Not getting too carried away with extra speed does apply in my opinion. If you carry to much extra you will be forcing the airplane down while it still wants to fly and significantly increase your runway requirement. That can cause a whole different set of problems.

I personally don't like to land flaps up for wind. Thats just what I have found works for me. In most light GA aircraft flaps up landings are perfectly acceptable, just don't forget to figure that choice into your runway requirement and always be familiar with the POH for what you are flying.
 
Stewartb said:
I'd take a different path. Keep the flaps out and the speed the same...
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Yep. There is no reason to increase airspeed for x-wind factors alone. Gusts and turbulence yes, x-wind no. You still have to slow to touchdown speed. All extra speed is doing is making you float more. It's not a remedy for under-developed x-wind skills.
 
RoscoeT said:
Yep. There is no reason to increase airspeed for x-wind factors alone. Gusts and turbulence yes, x-wind no. You still have to slow to touchdown speed. All extra speed is doing is making you float more. It's not a remedy for under-developed x-wind skills.
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Yet again I agree with Roscoe.

Similarly, for crosswind landings I might avoid the 40° "barn door" flaps of an old Cessna, but on most modern planes full flaps is just fine, perhaps with some exceptions.

Of note: Cirrus "Caution"s that full flaps should be used on all landings, except if they are failed and perhaps training for such a failure.
 
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One other bit of advice. Some will agree, some will dispute. So be it.

If possible, knowing that you'll land crosswind, ask for the pattern that'll put your base leg into the wind. That'll make your setup and turn to final easier. Everyone's heard the old saying that a good landing starts with a good approach. That'll never be more important than when the landing will test your skills. Give yourself the best chance to nail it. Cheers.
 
Stewartb said:
I'd take a different path. Keep the flaps out and the speed the same but steepen the final approach. You'll have better control.
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And ideally with the throttle near idle.

Too much speed means a lot of time close to, but not on, the ground. Same with too little flap. If you have to do that for gusts, that's the way it is. But just for a crosswind? I wouldn't.
 
I still have the occasional sucky landing and I have a little over 700 hours.

You can't win them all! Plus 99% of the time it's only you who noticed anything but a good landing.
 
FastEddieB said:
Yet again I agree with Roscoe.

Similarly, for crosswind landings I might avoid the 40° "barn door" flaps of an old Cessna, but on most modern planes full flaps is just fine, perhaps with some exceptions.

Of note: Cirrus "Caution"s that full flaps should be used on all landings, except if they are failed and perhaps training for such a failure.
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I agree here too. I wasn't very specific in my post. General practice for me is half the steady state plus all the gust not to exceed the max allowed adjustment. Never any consideration for crosswind other than I couldn't exceed the limitations in the SOP. These procedures were generally from transport category aircraft.

In GA aircraft I will not increase by more than 5-10 knots at most and it has to be at or above max demonstrated crosswind to get me to reduce flaps. Just my opinion. I have seen others do it differently and not have issues.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I agree here too. I wasn't very specific in my post. General practice for me is half the steady state plus all the gust not to exceed the max allowed adjustment. Never any consideration for crosswind other than I couldn't exceed the limitations in the SOP. These procedures were generally from transport category aircraft.

In GA aircraft I will not increase by more than 5-10 knots at most and it has to be at or above max demonstrated crosswind to get me to reduce flaps. Just my opinion. I have seen others do it differently and not have issues.
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I'll land our Maules with no flaps in high crosswinds. The plane is easier to control about 5 knots fast and clean. The plane tends to get squirrelly if you have flaps in anything but a steady crosswind.
 
ARFlyer said:
I'll land our Maules with no flaps in high crosswinds. The plane is easier to control about 5 knots fast and clean. The plane tends to get squirrelly if you have flaps in anything but a steady crosswind.
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Never flown a maule. They look like fun though. My tailwheel time is in cubs, champs rv's and an assortment of ag airplanes. Of course the flap or no flap question is rather easy in j-3's and champs. In the air tractors I still like flaps just not full flaps. The ailerons droop with the flaps and you can feel a difference in the roll response with full flaps. The thrush doesn't have any of that magic so i generally use full flaps. I do think the flap tactics can vary quite a bit from one airframe to the next.
 
Stewartb said:
I'd take a different path. Keep the flaps out and the speed the same but steepen the final approach. You'll have better control.
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I'll have to try that method someday. For me at my home field we get some strong x winds and mtn wave turbulence. I like getting myself down low as soon as I can on windy days to get a feel for what I will be dealing with.
 
DavidWhite said:
2k hours here and most of my landings suck
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I bet most of your landings are on surface most of us wouldn't characterize as runways. :)

No two landings are alike. Conditions are always different, even on the same runway on the same day. I've watched older airline pilots bounce landings hard, asked one of them if he was going to log them all.
 
Every time I think I'm getting good I have a couple crappy ones. I went and did 10 in a row the other day and the last 2 were horrible. I decided to call it a day when they were getting worse and not better.
 
ARFlyer said:
I'll land our Maules with no flaps in high crosswinds. The plane is easier to control about 5 knots fast and clean. The plane tends to get squirrelly if you have flaps in anything but a steady crosswind.
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And that's just as the POH says (I think). Reduce flaps for crosswind landings, I recall that negative or reflex flaps were included in that recommendation but I never used them.

I did a max effort crosswind landing at Key West some years ago. Used zero flaps and didn't have enough rudder to keep it straight in the slip until in ground effect. Had to do a 270 turn turn to exit runway 27. Got props from the tower who I'm sure were looking for entertainment. They then mentioned that a Piper Malibu had ground looped earlier and put the gear thru the wing.
Tarheelpilot said:
Never flown a maule. They look like fun though. My tailwheel time is in cubs, champs rv's and an assortment of ag airplanes. Of course the flap or no flap question is rather easy in j-3's and champs. In the air tractors I still like flaps just not full flaps. The ailerons droop with the flaps and you can feel a difference in the roll response with full flaps. The thrush doesn't have any of that magic so i generally use full flaps. I do think the flap tactics can vary quite a bit from one airframe to the next.
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I have very limited experience with different aircraft but it's always seemed to me that xwind tactics can be very aircraft specific. I was taught to always 3 point the Maule or at least always include the tailwheel in 2 pointers. I did finally teach myself to do wheelies and they seemed fine but there must have been a devil in there somewhere.

FWIW, in 40+ years of light aircraft flying I've only had one year long period when I didn't make the occasional sucky landing; August 2011 thru 2012. That was my first year flying the RV10 after 10+ years flying a tailwheel Maule. The '10 was just so easy after wrassling with the Maule. However by 2013 I dumbed down my skills enough so that I now make more than the occasional sucky landing.
 
FWIW, just keep practicing until you are satisfied with your landings.
If you seem you are not improving, get a CFI to fly with you and analyze your technique and flaws. I did it with my ex-CFI friend and it helped me.

Also, my ex-CFI friend has 10k+ hours, flying all sorts of fast rocket-powered aluminum coffins and he yet has to show me a smooth landing in any airplane. Every single time he has an excuse for why that particular landing could not have been made perfect. ;) Which makes me feel better about my good and not-so-good landings. :)

EDIT: You know the saying: "There are 3 simple rules to a perfect landing ... unfortunately nobody knows what they are". :D
 
Sit up straight, test your brakes, and say to yourself ... "o.k., get on the stick and rudder" when you get to short final.

Get your head in the game and outside the pit.

Fly it like you stole it. ;)
 
Stewartb said:
One other bit of advice. Some will agree, some will dispute. So be it.

If possible, knowing that you'll land crosswind, ask for the pattern that'll put your base leg into the wind. That'll make your setup and turn to final easier. ………...
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I'll dispute it, downwind on the base leg just start the base to final turn a little earlier rather than later and it shouldn't make any difference.
 
It matters to me. If I'm landing on my narrow strip with a NW wind at 35mph, which isn't uncommon, my headwind component is 22mph and the crosswind component is 27mph from the left. If I'm flying base at 70 mph into the wind my ground speed is 43 mph and I'm already set to crab. The other way my base leg ground speed is 97 and I have to turn 110*+ and get set up on final. That's much more difficult on a steady wind day but figure gusts and the normal mechanical turbulence and I'll wave it off before I start. But y'all should do what's best for you. It's just a discussion of techniques.
 
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txflyer said:
Sit up straight, test your brakes, and say to yourself ... "o.k., get on the stick and rudder" when you get to short final.

Get your head in the game and outside the pit.

Fly it like you stole it. ;)
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That's good stuff there.

One of my TW instructors suggested that once on final, get my feet up on the pedals and put pressure on both pedals, wag 'em back and forth and "get your head" and feet in the game.
 
ChrisK said:
A hair shy of 300 hours here. Putting the R182 down last week my instructor calls over the radio from the taxiway "those both looked like good landings".

Ass. Haha.

Keep at it!
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Ever had an instructor get on the radio when you're on final and say "You look a little high there, but don't worry, you have plenty of airspeed"?
 
UngaWunga said:
Ever had an instructor get on the radio when you're on final and say "You look a little high there, but don't worry, you have plenty of airspeed"?
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No but my primary instructor once informed a student that she was departing with a small tailwind. Rather than continue she executed a late abort, flipped her 150 over a fence, and broke her collarbone.

Gotta be careful what we say to the students and when we say it!!
 
Every time I get a Comanche bang its because I tried to land it instead of simply putting it on position and flying it on to the stall . . . .
 
Bill Watson said:
That's good stuff there.

One of my TW instructors suggested that once on final, get my feet up on the pedals and put pressure on both pedals, wag 'em back and forth and "get your head" and feet in the game.
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I make my best landings when I'm just having fun and flying the plane without hardly ever looking at anything inside once I'm 'in the groove.' Relaxed and having fun. Just listening to the motor and hand on the throttle.

If anything feels wrong or rushed on the approach, chances are it is wrong. The airplane is out ahead of you, and you're behind it.

My TW God taught me the drop wing hold centerline with rudder method on short final. Chances are, if you cannot hold it steady on center on final, and you're bouncing around with big corrections, you're asking for a real rodeo on touchdown. :redface:
 
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