o.k., who gets my new magneto money?

The "same day" that the parts for your mag that the local mechanic at the remote airstrip doesn't have. Parts is parts Jim regardless if it's 70 year old magneto technology or an electronic board.
There is a very good chance the mechanic has new or used parts for mags. There is zero chance he has parts for EI.

Then you are assuming the mechanic at the remote airstrip can diagnose the EI system. Yes, it's fairly simple, but which of the three or four stupidly expensive parts do you want him to order, get shipped overnight and try first? And if you see him walking back from your plane with a megger, it's probably going to be an expensive repair.
 
I'm all for as many electronic ignitions as one can sell. Just remember us little folks who can't afford a $5,000 upgrade and please sell your re-buildable magnetos to your hangar neighbors.

Signed: Magneto
 
There is a very good chance the mechanic has new or used parts for mags. There is zero chance he has parts for EI.

And you base that on? Having a magneto fail in the field and ground you? I have and he didn't.

Then you are assuming the mechanic at the remote airstrip can diagnose the EI system. Yes, it's fairly simple,

I had to help another mechanic diagnose my last magneto ignition issue after he was 13 hours into it and throwing parts at it... the last straw being he wanted to replace the ignition switch until I showed him how to ohm it out and confirm things with a jumper wire.

Yet this mechanic could read and I suspect would have done better with the EI system which walks him through trouble shooting.

http://www.electroair.net/pdfs/troubleshooting_the_EIS.pdf

Listen, I'm not defending EI or their pricing. You can have any ignition system you want... but don't engage in this public Neo-Luddism just because you don't understand something and/or are unwilling to document your claims. There *are* significant benefits to electronic ignition.... including if done right (which I question if EI did) the ability to diagnose issues far easier.

P.S.

I just called EI and read them your e-mail as if you were my AP trying to talk me out of buying a unit. Besides them indicating to me my AP didn't know what he was talking about, they also indicated the parts just don't fail much past initial install (infant mortality) or them being physically damaged. Unlike a magneto system, there are no moving parts... no points.. All replacement parts are in stock and can ship same day. Now granted, he had a reason to want to sell me a unit... but that's a big reason the automotive people went to electronic ignition... reliability. And I'm old enough to remember points on cars... and having to constantly adjust them. Nowadays... just change the plugs.... the stuff just doesn't fail.

http://www.electroair.net/stc_replacement_parts2.html
 
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Another issue that maybe hasn't been brought up is failure modes.

With breaker points you're usually going to start running crappy and you'd have to ignore that for a significant period before a possible complete failure. With Electronic Ignition it more often just quits working. It's like analog vs digital TV. When something went wrong with an analog TV you had snow whereas with a digital TV you get a blue screen.

This isn't to dispute that the electronics are more reliable. With the breaker points, eventually it is going to start running crappy and require service whereas with the electronics it's quite possible that it will never experience a failure in it's lifetime.
 
That's why you still have redundant systems.

BTW, I once had two magnetos fail in flight at the same time... one fully and one partially. The partial one may have been bad for a while... it would misfire above 2000 rpm but my mag checks at 1800rpm (POH) never caught it until the other one fully and suddenly failed.
 
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http://www.electroair.net/pdfs/troubleshooting_the_EIS.pdf


I just called EI and read them your e-mail as if you were my AP trying to talk me out of buying a unit. Besides them indicating to me my AP didn't know what he was talking about, they also indicated the parts just don't fail much past initial install (infant mortality) or them being physically damaged. Unlike a magneto system, there are no moving parts... no points.. All replacement parts are in stock and can ship same day. Now granted, he had a reason to want to sell me a unit... but that's a big reason the automotive people went to electronic ignition... reliability. And I'm old enough to remember points on cars... and having to constantly adjust them. Nowadays... just change the plugs.... the stuff just doesn't fail.

http://www.electroair.net/stc_replacement_parts2.html

Understand the line of discussion, and wish I had a unit. But how does Electroair become "EI"? EI makes engine monitors.


Paul
 
EI is for 'electronic ignition'

I talked to Ron today over lunch, and I asked him if he would rebuild my old mags, or if he's into that. He recommended since I want two mags, just get exchanges.

And he's not too hip on fine wire plugs. He said one of our Dr's on the field put them in his Giles and it had problems from day one. When they went back to massive plugs, the problem cleared up. :dunno:
 
EI is for 'electronic ignition'

I talked to Ron today over lunch, and I asked him if he would rebuild my old mags, or if he's into that. He recommended since I want two mags, just get exchanges.

And he's not too hip on fine wire plugs. He said one of our Dr's on the field put them in his Giles and it had problems from day one. When they went back to massive plugs, the problem cleared up. :dunno:

Hmmm, interesting on why a fine wire would cause a problem not found with massive electrode.
 
Hmmm, interesting on why a fine wire would cause a problem not found with massive electrode.

I'd bet it was dropped or just defective from the start. I've run into the same kind of problem with a massive plug and have a friend who won't use that brand of plug due to one defect.
 
I'd bet it was dropped or just defective from the start. I've run into the same kind of problem with a massive plug and have a friend who won't use that brand of plug due to one defect.

I used to use Auburns instead of Champions, but it was because of way more than one defective Champion, plus the Auburns were a couple of bucks less.
 
I have a copy of an engine emissions test report that NASA performed for the EPA in 1976.(report TM X-73500) They studied a 160 HP Lycoming engine extensively to see what effects humidity, air temperature, fuel mixture, and ignition timing had on emissions. A by product of the study was a 206 page volume of fuel consumption and horsepower statistics. While the focus was on emissions, they gathered extensive data on BSFC and HP under a wide range of conditions.

here is a Dropbox link. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dd2ywydyq0loy3d/LycomingO320NASA.pdf

Interestingly, while there are performance losses when timing is retarded from spec, there are little or no gains when advancing the timing beyond spec. They basically confirmed that 25 BTDC was ideal for that engine. Advancing the timing to 30 BTDC had virtually no benefit.

Retarding the timing to 20 degrees cut HP from 157, down to 148. Advancing it to 30 degrees only raised it from 156, to 157.

The main thing to take from this, is that keeping ignition timing precisely at the specification is more important that most people realize. That means maintaining the ignition system with a focus on the timing event inside the magneto, and from the magneto to the engine. Internal timing is important to achieve the dwell time needed for coil saturation and optimum spark output. Optimum spark is both high voltage and long duration. External timing puts the spark to the plug at the correct moment. Most mechanics do not understand the difference in these two events. It's poor maintenance that causes poor performance, not necessarily the fact that the magnetos have a fixed timing event or are 1930's tractor technology.

I suspect that the majority of magneto-equipped engines with more than 500 hours on them have incorrect timing. Even when the external timing is set correctly, the internal timing can be off several degrees, resulting in loss of performance. Combine this with poor quality spark plugs like Champion massive electrode plugs, and you can be losing 10-15 HP. Add in carburetor heat leaks, poor cylinder baffling, and fuel system discrepancies, and you create a real dog.

Controlling the engine fuel mixture and timing with a closed-loop electronic control system is the way to achieve the best performance. We're probably farther from that goal than ever, since the Aerosance FADEC seems to have gone nowhere since 1998.

The best combination of conventional ignition system components at the moment are Bendix magnetos with Tempest fine wire plugs. Tight plug gaps are critical and these hold the gap exceptionally well while allowing maximum spark exposure to the fuel air mixture.


It will be interesting to see how Electroair fares compared to the LASAR system that failed in the market place. Maintenance was part of that, because parts were ridiculously expensive and sometimes unobtainable.

Buried in the Electroair STC Instructions for Continued Airworthiness: Every 1000 hours or 5 years, replace the ignition harness. It can't be deferred because as an STC ICA it is an Airworthiness Limitation. Any idea what that will cost? They could set the price at $1000 and you could choose to buy it, or ground the plane.

This system uses two different timing curves and adds them based on conditions. An RPM curve, with a max of 26.5 degrees at 2700 RPM.. And a vacuum curve, with a maximum of 18.5 degrees at 16" MP. They are added together, but there are no conditions under which you could get all 45 degrees of advance. Under typical conditions you may get 28 total. You would have to be at 16"MP and 2700 RPM to get all available advance. It drops off steeply after that.

If you apply the EIS timing curve to a typical Lycoming performance cruise power setting of 24" MP and 2400 RPM, you get ZERO vacuum advance, and only 24 degrees BTDC because you have yet to hit 2500 RPM, where the RPM advance curve equals the OEM timing setting of 25 BTDC. To get any benefit from the vacuum advance curve, you have to be below 75 percent power. It appears that settings of 55 to 65 percent power will allow total advance to equal or exceed the OEM setting of 25 BTDC.

At 22"MP and 2300 RPM, you get 23 BTDC rpm advance plus 4.5D for a total of 27.5 BTDC timing. If you go to 23/2300, you get 24+2.25 for 26.25 BTDC total timing. Some Comamche 250/260 pilots use 22"MP/2100 RPM cruise setting, giving 22 degrees RPM + 4.5 vacuum advance for 26.5 total timing. That's a whopping 1.5 degrees advance, which NASA says gives you a .0064% HP increase. If you go over square, you lose the vacuum advance and are back to 24 BTDC, so you LOSE a degree of timing. Oversquare settings like 24/2300 and 23/2200 are known to produce good performance, long top cylinder life, and lower vibration. Using them essentially cancels the vacuum portion of the EIS timing advance, and with good reason but without thinking this all the way through. As cylinder BMEP rises under high MP and lower RPM combinations, the chance of detonation increases. The simplest way to avoid this is to retard timing under those specific conditions, or to find the happy medium under all conditions. That happy medium is the OEM advance setting. But this system appears to retard the timing below the OEM setting in many cases, unnecessarily. This might be beneficial to high compression or turbo engines that need more detonation margin or want the ability to operate on lower octane fuel. But typical Lycomings only need 91 octane and so the detonation margin with 100LL is huge. And don't forget as currently configured, this system gives ZERO vacuum advance above 24"MP. So it is useless on a turbo.

The highest amount of advance will occur under high RPM and low MP conditions. For example, at 10,000 feet you might have 20" MP and 2500 RPM. Under these conditions you will get 34 BTDC total timing. This is where you should see the maximum benefit. Low MP high RPM cruise flight above 8000 feet. The least amount of advance, sometimes LESS than OEM, will occur during high MP conditions such as takeoff and climb. This is according to the Electroair charts: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/electroair.php

The numbers I have seen posted don't appear to be any better than book performance numbers for a new plane. It appears that most of these retrofits are on 30-50 year old planes that were driven by upcoming repairs or dissatisfaction with constantly throwing money at old problems. So we may simply be seeing "performance improvements" that would come from stock new replacement parts, installed by competent mechanics. For example, I flew a completely stock B model Twin Comanche for years that would true at 170 KTAS at 9000 feet on 15.4 GPH. No speed mods whatsoever, and actually had poor paint and some other drag inducing items costing a few knots I'm certain. But good engine maintenance made it efficient in spite of the aerodynamic challenges.

I'll wait to see how this evolves before jumping in. A better timing curve is needed IMHO. At the moment I see no benefit for the substantial outlay on my twin, or for my customers.

NOTE: In the EA info pages is a note about cylinder Peak Pressure occurring at 11 degrees ATDC. I'm not sure if this is an error or intentional, but all data I have seen indicates optimum PP occurs in a band from 14 to 18 degrees ATDC and it is linked to ignition timing. If PP occurs too soon the engine will be prone to detonation. If too late, it runs hot and loses power.
 
Excellent post.

I started running 'over square' after reading several articles.

It just makes sense. Less revolution's on the engine, less wear.
 
Interestingly, while there are performance losses when timing is retarded from spec, there are little or no gains when advancing the timing beyond spec. They basically confirmed that 25 BTDC was ideal for that engine. Advancing the timing to 30 BTDC had virtually no benefit.

Retarding the timing to 20 degrees cut HP from 157, down to 148. Advancing it to 30 degrees only raised it from 156, to 157..

The focus of this NASA test was emissions NOT fuel economy. As such, the test you posted is almost irrelevant . Both the CAFE and NASA report shows HP peaks in the 25BTDC range and electronic ignition brings little to the table here. But very few of us cruise at 100% power at sea level. If you'll review the earlier CAFE report I posted, economy was it's focus and timing's to 40 BTDC were used as well as altitudes to 15K.


Buried in the Electroair STC Instructions for Continued Airworthiness: Every 1000 hours or 5 years, replace the ignition harness. It can't be deferred because as an STC ICA it is an Airworthiness Limitation. Any idea what that will cost? They could set the price at $1000 and you could choose to buy it, or ground the plane.

I'm wondering how long it took you to find this and then speculate it cost a $1000? In less time then it took me to write this I found this:

http://www.electroair.net/stc_replacement_parts.html

Ignition wire.... $49.00

With all due respect, this is the kind of rhetoric that detracts from an overall good post.

This system uses two different timing curves and adds them based on conditions. An RPM curve, with a max of 26.5 degrees at 2700 RPM.. And a vacuum curve, with a maximum of 18.5 degrees at 16" MP. They are added together, but there are no conditions under which you could get all 45 degrees of advance. Under typical conditions you may get 28 total. You would have to be at 16"MP and 2700 RPM to get all available advance. It drops off steeply after that.


What exactly are you looking at? You are right about the two curves but your understanding of how the system works seems flawed. Above 24" of MP you are at zero advance over default. At my typical higher altitude cruise settings I'm looking at between 31 to 34" BTDC.

The formula is Advance = RPM advance + Vacuum Advance

vacuumadvance.JPG


rpmadvance.JPG



At 22"MP and 2300 RPM, you get 23 BTDC rpm advance plus 4.5D for a total of 27.5 BTDC timing. If you go to 23/2300, you get 24+2.25 for 26.25 BTDC total timing. Some Comamche 250/260 pilots use 22"MP/2100 RPM cruise setting, giving 22 degrees RPM + 4.5 vacuum advance for 26.5 total timing.

Instead of pulling numbers out of the hat, let's pull them from a POH. 2200/20 is best power long range cruise on my airplane (POH). That would be 32d of advance.

And don't forget as currently configured, this system gives ZERO vacuum advance above 24"MP. So it is useless on a turbo.

It's not STC'ed for a turbo.

The least amount of advance, sometimes LESS than OEM, will occur during high MP conditions such as takeoff and climb.

And that is EXACTLY as it should be as in these scenarios the chances of detonation are highest. Also retarding the advance during high power operations is a good way to pick up a few octane points of margin... allowing many of us to run mo-gas (which is outside the scope of this STC).


I'll wait to see how this evolves before jumping in. A better timing curve is needed IMHO. At the moment I see no benefit for the substantial outlay on my twin, or for my customers.

I agree on the timing curve, it's overly conservative as well as the system being overpriced. But I've converted enough old cars to electronic ignition (as well as written firmware to understand what is going on) to not recognize the advantages of electronic ignition in general.
 
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Excellent post.

I started running 'over square' after reading several articles.

It just makes sense. Less revolution's on the engine, less wear.

It's also a good way to make up for the fixed timing as well... in particular if you are running LOP. Since the RPM's are lower, it gives more time for the charge to burn before the exhaust valves open. At a given power setting at peak EGT, you should notice that over-squared operation will give a lower EGT but a higher CHT. Less power is going out the exhaust stack.

Here I am flying my aztec at 14 gph (total) 1850rpm/25". On magentos :D

http://youtu.be/qwSeoKa1reQ
 
In my experience with fleets of airplanes equipped with data logging engine monitors, very few operate in the low power regimes where the EI system will give more advance than the standard magneto. Simply put, most pilots fly below 9000 feet and use the higher power settings to go fast. That's why they bought a plane. Using the POH settings for 65 through 85 percent power puts you at or behind the original timing spec. So again, the only real benefits accrue at settings below 65 percent power. Not many Aztecs are flown at 45 percent power. At least not in the commercial world, where the vast majority of them fly.

FWIW, your Lycoming engines are optimized for 2200-2350 RPM's. The cam shaft, the connecting rod ratio, and the combustion chamber are all tailored to 91 octane fuel at that rpm/flame front propagation combination. Cruise RPM's below 2100 place higher stress on the prop blade roots and increase wear on the hub bearings. It's like driving uphill in overdrive. The effects are less, below 55 percent power, but still there.
 
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It's also a good way to make up for the fixed timing as well... in particular if you are running LOP. Since the RPM's are lower, it gives more time for the charge to burn before the exhaust valves open. At a given power setting at peak EGT, you should notice that over-squared operation will give a lower EGT but a higher CHT. Less power is going out the exhaust stack.

Here I am flying my aztec at 14 gph (total) 1850rpm/25". On magentos :D

http://youtu.be/qwSeoKa1reQ


I've learned a lot just from this thread. POA is cool for that.

I noticed one nit-pick in your video. The GDL39 on your dash is oriented sideways. Maybe it doesn't matter if it's not the 3D unit, but I know I just read on the 3D unit it must be pointed with the little end towards the front of the plane/direction of flight, and as close to the center of the plane as possible.

Just FYI.
 
In my experience with fleets of airplanes equipped with data logging engine monitors, very few operate in the low power regimes where the EI system will give more advance than the standard magneto. Simply put, most pilots fly below 9000 feet and use the higher power settings to go fast. That's why they bought a plane.

Yeap, and it was already conceded ElectroAir system isn't cost effective for most certified aircraft. Yet many of the experimental guys have lower cost electronic ignition systems such as the lightspeed.

Not many Aztecs are flown at 45 percent power. At least not in the commercial world, where the vast majority of them fly.

I can't say. I typically fly my aztec at about 50% power (about 18gph)... which is just about right for the airframe as it's Carson's speed. is ~160mph indicated which is what this LOP fuel flow nets me. Remember the aztec has 500hp engines bolted onto what was at first a 300hp frame (apache), so running it at 75% power just compresses air and is exactly why it got a bad reputation as a gas hog. Flown economically, the MPG in the Aztec is almost the same as it was in my Cherokee 6.

Anyways, the idea is to keep Carson's speed for as high an altitude as possible while still running at LOP or peak EGT. It's really the sweet spot for variable advance if economy is your goal. And of course the longer spark duration helps LOP operation (reduces lean misfires).
 
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The GDL39 on your dash is oriented sideways. Maybe it doesn't matter if it's not the 3D unit, but I know I just read on the 3D unit it must be pointed with the little end towards the front of the plane/direction of flight, and as close to the center of the plane as possible.

It's not the 3D unit and AFAIK, it doesn't matter with that one. I might be getting rid of it soon.
 
It's not the 3D unit and AFAIK, it doesn't matter with that one. I might be getting rid of it soon.


Me too, as soon as they come out with SVX on android.

But I thought you should know, on the 3D unit, it definitely makes a difference according to the manual.
 
Cruise RPM's below 2100 place higher stress on the prop blade roots and increase wear on the hub bearings. It's like driving uphill in overdrive. The effects are less, below 55 percent power, but still there.

The power settings I am using are in the power charts in the POH. It's also in the engine manual. This is the 540C4B5 that has a redline of 2575 rpm and is derated to 250hp. At MP below 25" operation of 1800rpm is explicitly permitted.

See page 59 in the attached POH (page 25 of the PDF) as well as page 60 (page 50 of the PDF).

I typically cruise at 2000 rpm however.

EDIT P.S. Page 60 is really a good example of the efficiencies of lower RPM operation. For a given HP see how the fuel flow drops off as the RPM goes lower. For example, for a given percentage of power (such as 55%) going from 2200 rpm to 1800 RPM reduces the fuel flow by 1 GPH. On my twin that equates to 2gph.

P.P.S. the one thing I didn't check is the prop tech manual.... I'd presume the POH would cover that but it's worth checking with hartzell which I'll do on monday as this isn't the first time I've heard what you mentioned.
 

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The highest amount of advance will occur under high RPM and low MP conditions. For example, at 10,000 feet you might have 20" MP and 2500 RPM. Under these conditions you will get 34 BTDC total timing. This is where you should see the maximum benefit. Low MP high RPM cruise flight above 8000 feet. The least amount of advance, sometimes LESS than OEM, will occur during high MP conditions such as takeoff and climb. This is according to the Electroair charts: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/electroair.php


Interesting analysis.

Kinda looks like the items you mention wouldn't be all that useful to many, but could work well for non-turbo engines up here where he airports are all at 6000' MSL and above...

Not a lot, but it depends on what altitude you like to cruise at...
 
I would bet that most engines that haven't had the mag/timing dialed in the last 100 hrs have a loss. That's the real advantage to electronic ignition, it stays set on timing for life.
 
I would bet that most engines that haven't had the mag/timing dialed in the last 100 hrs have a loss. That's the real advantage to electronic ignition, it stays set on timing for life.

And that's both big and why the auto guys first did it.... although it's of note even in the pre-electronic days most cars had mechanical advance so that's long been recognized as desirable.
 
And that's both big and why the auto guys first did it.... although it's of note even in the pre-electronic days most cars had mechanical advance so that's long been recognized as desirable.

Mechanical advance and vacuum advance are necessary on engines that need to operate under various RPM and load conditions. It's not so important with an engine as slow as these that operate within a 3-400rpm range. You can actually do all the timing change you need for the efficiency change just by leaning correctly. What would benefit aircraft engines the most is just an old style CDI ignition system like we swapped into our motorcycles and hot rods in the 70s. That would be the biggest benefit as just an ignition swap. Now if you want to go whole hog and put TPI-EFI on as well, then the computer controlled real time timing adjustments can really benefit us because we could operate at very tight margins to detonation, and that is where peak efficiency lies, right on the cusp. With that as well, then we could see some significant fuel savings and an increase in engine reliability and cylinder life. We'd probably double TBO or better. Look what it's done for auto engine longevity. While detonation is the most destructive short term issue your engine will see, excess fuel is the most destructive and expensive in the long haul. Excess fuel washes out rings and causes sticking and burned valves, excess fuel eats up exhaust systems, excess fuel costs you more oil changes, excess fuel costs more for every mile travelled.

With a full digital engine management system, the computer can keep, everything constantly fine tuned in real time.
 
You can actually do all the timing change you need for the efficiency change just by leaning correctly.

Which pretty much describes why I joined the LOP/low RPM/ oversquared camp. With LOP the charge is burning even slower, making it more desirable to keep it contained longer before the exhaust valve opens. With fixed timing the only way to do that is to slow the RPM down. But that only buys you so much, hence my interest in advancing the timing to give me a little more envelope. Also don't negate the reduction in lean mis-fires that the extended spark dwell of EI can give you.

The lower noise/less wear was only secondary... and phil does have a point about really low RPM's (even though it's in my POH). I'd far rather advance the timing at 2100 rpm then potentially lug things at 1850rpm.

Of course, I fly my twin pretty much as a corner case. Not embarrassed at all to be cruising at 170mph TAS.... I've been a fuel economy nut since I bought my first car... a 1974 12" wheel Honda civic that got 40mpg.
 
What
should my timing be set at on my 0-470-R?
Damn phone, I can't type with a flip on it.
 
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