NYC Touch & Go?

flyingpreacher

flyingpreacher

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flyingpreacher
Ok, so I'm less than 3 hours from commercial minimums, and I want to do something cool to get over the hump. I'm planning to fly Christmas day (weather permitting) and I was thinking with the slight dip in travel volume, maybe I could try a T&G at one of the big 3 NYC airports. Won't be my first Class Bravo, but I'm curious if anybody has any (non-COVID shutdown) experience with this? My timing is pretty flexible, although I want to do it during the day. I don't care if it's KEWR, KLGA, or KJFK. I'm instrument rated and plan to file IFR. So here are the three primary things I'm looking at:

1. Which one is the cheapest? (I know that there will likely be a cost, but I'm ok with that as a Christmas present to myself)
2. Which one is least busy?
3. Which one is most likely to accommodate a bugsmasher like me? (172)

Anything even remotely comparable in my site search was about during the COVID shutdown when people were doing pattern work at Bravos, so probably not quite relevant.

What say you, Pilots of America?
 
Not an authority on the subject but I wouldn’t be surprised if they said no. That being said, if it’s on Christmas Day they might be slow enough to allow it.
 
Unless you go in the middle of the night, they’re unlikely to give you a touch and go. If you file IFR, you can most definitely do a full stop. Not sure if they make guys taxi to the FBO still. I heard that was a thing so they can collect their fees. Best bet is to file IFR and just do a full stop taxi back. You can also check flight aware to see when there is a lull in departures. It’s always pretty busy but I bet you can find some times that are less busy than others. You also may be in luck being Christmas Day. Usually airline schedules are reduced so there will be less flights.
 
Try asking this in the Landline group on FB. Lots of controllers there.
 
I don't know if you can do that, but I do know that a training flight did a touch and go at Minneapolis/Saint Paul and the tower operator said, "Don't come back. This is not a training airport."
 
My two cents is that the approach and departure from Newark looks less complicated than Kennedy or La Guardia, but I don’t really know.

Anecdotally, the NY controllers have a sharper reputation than the NJ controllers. I know more GA people who have been permitted flying in Newark’s airspace than Kennedy.
 
I prefer Newark. Very reasonable (last I checked it was $8.50 per 1000 pound gross weight of your aircraft) and they have the seldom used 11/29 runway that has easy access to Signature. I’ve done it twice and it worked out pretty slick.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I don't know if you can do that, but I do know that a training flight did a touch and go at Minneapolis/Saint Paul and the tower operator said, "Don't come back. This is not a training airport."
Click to expand...

MSP and many Class B airports have notes in the Chart Supplement to the effect of T&Gs prohibited, training flights not authorized, or all aircraft must park at terminal or FBO. I know MSP does, so I'm curious how someone even got cleared for a T&G there, I wouldn't think the tower would allow it.

During the COVID shutdowns, most Class Bs were desolate and eager to work with anyone that wanted to come through. But today's air traffic has picked up to pre-pandemic or beyond levels, and they don't have the time for games. I've heard pilots grouse that "my taxes pay for that infrastructure therefore I'm going to use it", but the Class B airports aren't really setup or meant for GA traffic. They are at capacity with the scheduled traffic. Just like an interstate, it may be public infrastructure but you can't ride your bicycle down I-95 at rush hour.
 
midwestpa24 said:
MSP and many Class B airports have notes in the Chart Supplement to the effect of T&Gs prohibited, training flights not authorized, or all aircraft must park at terminal or FBO. I know MSP does, so I'm curious how someone even got cleared for a T&G there, I wouldn't think the tower would allow it.
Click to expand...
This was a few years ago, and the airplane was a light twin from Minnesota State University at Mankato. I heard the story from a fellow CFI who was attending school there when it happened.
 
I went out one night to get night current so I could tour some friends around the next evening. I flew from IAD to HEF and noticed fog starting to form in the low lying areas so returned to IAD. Rolling out about 800 feet down the 11,000' runway I asked if they weren't busy could I do a stop and go. So I stopped took off, climbed up to 1000' AGL, cut the power and landed again. I probably could have gotten a third in if I had tried hard enough.
 
flyingron said:
I went out one night to get night current so I could tour some friends around the next evening. I flew from IAD to HEF and noticed fog starting to form in the low lying areas so returned to IAD. Rolling out about 800 feet down the 11,000' runway I asked if they weren't busy could I do a stop and go. So I stopped took off, climbed up to 1000' AGL, cut the power and landed again. I probably could have gotten a third in if I had tried hard enough.
Click to expand...

When I was doing my CFI ASE out of FDK (MANY years ago) we went to IAD to do night work. They cleared us unlimited T&G, full stop, stop and go, low approaches on 19L and no need to talk to them, but they would appreciate it if we would tell them when we left. :D
 
I always wanted (back when there were three runways) to do a landing at each one.
I also wanted to do an IAD-DCA-BWI triple sometime. I've done IAD and BWI. The controllers at DCA invited us to come when we hung out with them but all that kind of died after 9/11.
 
In the ’90’s, when based at FRG, had a controller friend at the tower at JFK. We would call up after departing FRG while transiting the exclusion, 500 feet along the shore, and get cleared for one or sometimes two touch n go’s, left traffic. Most were just before midnight or just after. Never got charged.
 
flyingpreacher said:
Ok, so I'm less than 3 hours from commercial minimums, and I want to do something cool to get over the hump. I'm planning to fly Christmas day (weather permitting) and I was thinking with the slight dip in travel volume, maybe I could try a T&G at one of the big 3 NYC airports. Won't be my first Class Bravo, but I'm curious if anybody has any (non-COVID shutdown) experience with this? My timing is pretty flexible, although I want to do it during the day. I don't care if it's KEWR, KLGA, or KJFK. I'm instrument rated and plan to file IFR. So here are the three primary things I'm looking at:

1. Which one is the cheapest? (I know that there will likely be a cost, but I'm ok with that as a Christmas present to myself)
2. Which one is least busy?
3. Which one is most likely to accommodate a bugsmasher like me? (172)

Anything even remotely comparable in my site search was about during the COVID shutdown when people were doing pattern work at Bravos, so probably not quite relevant.

What say you, Pilots of America?
Click to expand...
There's nothing hard about landing a bug-smasher at a NYC bravo airport. Have done it at all three. However, your communications skills have to be top notch or you will be denied before you ever see the airport's beacon. NY Tracon works at a speed like no other. And they often practice their NY accents on unsuspecting "foreigners" from hinterland places like IPT :)

If you really want a touch and go, try around 2am. Otherwise plan on a full-stop ± going to the FBO. Landing fees at JFK and EWR can be over $100 at many times of the day; JFK used to be only $25 at off hours.

Generally EWR is going to be the easiest IMHO. And all is predicated on being able to make a 172 go 115 knots downhill on final.
 
flyingpreacher said:
Ok, so I'm less than 3 hours from commercial minimums, and I want to do something cool to get over the hump. I'm planning to fly Christmas day (weather permitting) and I was thinking with the slight dip in travel volume, maybe I could try a T&G at one of the big 3 NYC airports. Won't be my first Class Bravo, but I'm curious if anybody has any (non-COVID shutdown) experience with this? My timing is pretty flexible, although I want to do it during the day. I don't care if it's KEWR, KLGA, or KJFK. I'm instrument rated and plan to file IFR. So here are the three primary things I'm looking at:

1. Which one is the cheapest? (I know that there will likely be a cost, but I'm ok with that as a Christmas present to myself)
2. Which one is least busy?
3. Which one is most likely to accommodate a bugsmasher like me? (172)

Anything even remotely comparable in my site search was about during the COVID shutdown when people were doing pattern work at Bravos, so probably not quite relevant.

What say you, Pilots of America?
Click to expand...
Picked up a passenger at EWR in 2019... they were more afraid of me than me of them. Landing fee was billed later, FBO only wanted min fuel of 8 gallons to waive handling. But, they didn't know what 100 low lead was. "We don't have that, we only have avgas!"

Paul
 
Steamflyer said:
There's nothing hard about landing a bug-smasher at a NYC bravo airport. Have done it at all three. However, your communications skills have to be top notch or you will be denied before you ever see the airport's beacon. NY Tracon works at a speed like no other. And they often practice their NY accents on unsuspecting "foreigners" from hinterland places like IPT :)

If you really want a touch and go, try around 2am. Otherwise plan on a full-stop ± going to the FBO. Landing fees at JFK and EWR can be over $100 at many times of the day; JFK used to be only $25 at off hours.

Generally EWR is going to be the easiest IMHO. And all is predicated on being able to make a 172 go 115 knots downhill on final.
Click to expand...
Very helpful! Fortunately, I talk to NY Center for almost every IFR flight, and I'm familiar with most of the arrival fixes, and what altitudes to expect. Shouldn't be any different than going into Toronto ("Max forward speed as long as possible...")

Weather isn't looking TOO promising for a Christmas day flight, but I still plan to do it one way or the other!

I appreciate everybody's help, and I hope to report back with my experience!
 
Thanks for all the advice! After low temps and MVFR predicted all week, it ended up being 5-8C the whole way and I got .2 in easy IMC.

I called AOPA Pilot Information and talked to a (retired?) airline pilot named Patrick. He advised filing IFR, full stop, pick up the new clearance, depart again.

I did this and it worked out wonderfully. The only thing that mildly annoyed anybody was when I told ground I was holding short of the departing runway. (I didn’t realize that you don’t have to say that at the big airports.) He was like “Ok?” Other than that, I have ZERO qualms about flying into a big airport now.

That’s good because as of this flight, I now have my commercial minimums! If all goes according to plan, January checkride!!!
 
Congrats! Did I miss it, or was the chosen field omitted in your narrative?!
 
No, @Steamflyer, you didn't miss it. I've been thinking about it so much, I assumed I had included it, but I didn't. I landed runway 11 at KEWR and departed RWY 22R behind a couple of international-bound United Flights. Those people on that flight to Puerto Rico had a goofy little 172 to look at through their window when they lined up!
 
flyingpreacher said:
No, @Steamflyer, you didn't miss it. I've been thinking about it so much, I assumed I had included it, but I didn't. I landed runway 11 at KEWR and departed RWY 22R behind a couple of international-bound United Flights. Those people on that flight to Puerto Rico had a goofy little 172 to look at through their window when they lined up!
Click to expand...
Fantastic! I imagine you were their once-a-month customer on 11. Did you go to the FBO and have the nice Port Authority folks come in to "register" you so you could pay the nice fee? Last time I was there in about 2011 in a Twin Comanche they sure did - they know if it's a "new" N-number (same thing used to happen at TEB, but now Vector just sends a bill).
 
Steamflyer said:
Fantastic! I imagine you were their once-a-month customer on 11. Did you go to the FBO and have the nice Port Authority folks come in to "register" you so you could pay the nice fee? Last time I was there in about 2011 in a Twin Comanche they sure did - they know if it's a "new" N-number (same thing used to happen at TEB, but now Vector just sends a bill).
Click to expand...
No, I just requested my new clearance on Taxiway Z short of Z5. Got it there, then taxied Sierra Whiskey cross 11. Was #4 for departure behind a Spirit and 2 United flights. I think the United pilot could tell that I didn't belong, because after given the "Line up and wait, caution wake turbulence" the United pilot came back on "Tower, there's gonna be a lot of wake turbulence for that Skyhawk."

I appreciated the extra warning. Even though I'm gearing up for that CPL ride, I don't do a lot of work behind 737s, so the extra reminder wasn't ill-advised, nor did I take any offense. The only thing that surprised me is that I expected to feel a bit more of the jet blast. Granted, I maintained adequate spacing, but still thought I'd feel it more.
 
At the risk of getting in trouble for posting this in the wrong area, since it is the direct outflow of this thread, I figured it wouldn't be horribly inappropriate to give you all the link to the video (non-monetized) for the approach and departure at KEWR.

 
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