NYC Parking Violations Bureau - What a Racket

[RJM62]

About a month ago, I was driving through Manhattan with my two godchildren in the car, trying to get to the Holland Tunnel. I proceeded through an intersection, but was blocked by another driver who cut me off before I got through.

The friendly "Traffic Enforcement Agent" gave me a ticket for Obstructing Traffic. Even the kids protested, but of course, it was to no avail. TEAs definitely do have ticket quotas (unlike real NYC cops), and nothing stops them once they start writing a ticket.

This particular offense is not considered a moving violation in New York City because then the TEAs wouldn't be able to write tickets for it, and also (I suspect) because moving violations have to be adjudicated in a slightly less transparently corrupt court. Non-moving violations carry no points, and are therefore adjudicated in a kangaroo court known as the Parking Violations Bureau.

Most of these tickets are actually handled online or through the mail, as no sane person wants to go take a day off from work to go down to the PVB in person if they don't have to. It's simple economics: The lost income exceeds the fine, so it's usually not worth bothering.

But business is slow these days, anyway; and I had witnesses. So what the heck, I thought. I sent the ticket in with a request for an in-person hearing and requested that my goddaughters either be allowed to submit affidavits or else be subpoenaed as witnesses. Not an unreasonable request, I thought; and it could be a good civics lesson for the kids if it actually came to it.

What I actually suspected, however, was that the PVB would offer a reduced fine in return for a guilty plea, which is what they used to do, mainly to save the costs of an actual hearing. The combined salaries of the ALJ, the bailiff, the clerk, and the rest of the entourage cost way more than the average ticket fine, so in the past they routinely offered to settle with a wink and a nod, sometimes reducing the fines by as much as 50 percent.

Hence my surprise when I was notified by mail today that my hearing had been held in absentia and that I had been found guilty and assessed a fine of the full $115.00. No witnesses, no opportunity to present my defense, no chance to hire one of the dozens of lawyers who loiter around the hearing room, nothing. Nada. Zip.

Interesting approach, don't ya think? They save on the costs of the hearing by simply not inviting the defendant.

Furthermore, I was told over the phone when I called that I had to pay the fine first if I wanted to appeal, using a form that I would have to hunt down on the Internet myself, and that I did not have the right to call any witnesses nor present any evidence that I hadn't presented at the initial hearing -- which was held in my absence and without any notice being provided to me in advance.

Now I admit, everyone who lives in New York City knows that the Parking Violations Bureau is a racket worthy of a RICO indictment. But in the past (the distant past, because the last time I had occasion to fight a NYC parking ticket was many years ago), they at least pretended that it was a real judicial proceeding. Now they've dropped all pretense and have become transparently corrupt.

About the only good thing about the process is that I can call 311 any time, 24/7, for more information or just to whine about the shocking injustice of it all. So I figure I'll call a couple of times every day with idiotic questions until I'm sure that the city has spent more in payroll costs to answer them than the $115.00 they collect from me for the extortion money fine.

What a racket.

-Rich

 

[bbchien]

New York Drivers. You can have 'em.

 

[RJM62]

New York Drivers. You can have 'em.

Hey, I resemble that remark.

 

[gismo]

Now I admit, everyone who lives in New York City knows that the Parking Violations Bureau is a racket worthy of a RICO indictment.

Sue em in conciliation court.

 

[Lawreston]

On the Topic:

A couple days ago I received a letter(Nasty Gram??) from the Old Orchard Beach Police Department -- "Parking Division"(or whatever it's called). I was being assessed a $60.00 fine because the Parking Violation of Maine registration #9(on July 25) remains unpaid.
BS! I'll have a bit of fun with this one. My plate #9 hasn't been in Old Orchard Beach since the summer of 1959 when I went to see(and got to sit-in a set with) Louis
Armstrong. Factually, my #9 has only been out of the garage once in 2009 and that was a round trip to Woolwich(14sm). And if I don't pay the fine within 30 days the matter will be turned over to the COLLECTIONS DEPARTMENT for legal action.

I called the police chief; he was "out." So was the deputy chief and on down the line. I'd have to call the Parking Division, which I said I'd do after I coursed out the dispatcher for lousy administration. Note here that I said I was going to have some fun with this serious oversight of their department.

I'll wait another 20 days or so and check back with the department. But as I told the dispatcher, "I'm not paying that ******* parking ticket! because I was never in your territory on July 25."

Oh, I guess I'll have to ask for a description of the vehicle in violation. You see, my plate #9 has been on numerous Harley Davidson(s) since 1954 and I already qualified(here) that it's only been 7sm from my house this year.

My gut feeling is that automobile plate #9 got a parking ticket, never paid it; and when the department researched the #9, "C" rute probably comes before a lot of other names and they locked onto the first #9 they saw in the files. But I'll bet it was a Dodge or a Ford or a Chevy without my name attached to it. And somebody is thinking he/she got away without paying a parking ticket.

HR

 

[SCCutler]

I was in downtown L.A. one fine Saturday, many years ago, sitting in a bus lane (no buses running), waiting for my wife who was in a store picking up something.

Around the corner comes a uniformed young lady, walking down a row of illegally parked cars, ticketing each. She comes to me, I smile at her, she smiles at me, she walks on by and behind the next car in line, behind me, illegally parked.

Now, my foolish mistake was to think she was a peace officer, which she was not; she's a ticket-writer. I notice in my rear view mirror that, while she may be standing behind the car behind mine, she is craning her neck to get a gander at my plate. Sneaky little beeotch (OK, not so little...).

So, I started my engine and signaled to enter the traffic lane, and right then, a clump of cars comes along. When I started the engine, miss bossy-pants started writing like a demon on her ticket pad, and she rushes up and stuffs a ticket under my wiper.

I yanked on the parking brake, jumped out and said "I want to talk to you!" She ignored me, smugly waddling away.

I grabbed the ticket, fuming, and looked to see what the damage was gonna be.

And saw that, in her haste after I started the engine, while she had written the proper tag number in, she had circled the pre-printed "CA" for California, instead of writing in "TX" for my Texas tags.

Ha!

 

[sba55]

[...]What a racket.

-Rich

That's a horrible situation to be in. On the one hand, it is obviously incredibly unjust, on the other it would probably cost you much more than $115 to sue the city of this (if you even could).

I had a similar situation with "administrative law" here in Illinois. I've gotten a few parking tickets that were clearly unjustified - don't think anybody would dispute this. The few traffic tickets I've gotten for the same reason have all been dismissed once I showed up in court. Anyways, apparently I would have to pay a fee that is 6x as high as the traffic ticket to fight it, and even though all of the tickets were issued for the same silly reason, I would have to fight every single one of them separately, and I'd have to do this in person. I asked the clerk about fighting them - she said "nope, not worth it, just pay them". Right...

I finally caught one of those useless parking people writing me yet another ticket for the same stupid reason. I asked her why she was giving me a ticket. First she claimed that my registration was only valid for 7 days (it isn't, and I challenged her to show me where it said that; in fact, my temporary registration doesn't have an expiration date). Then she said that it was "unacceptable" that I didn't have an IL registration and that she was giving me a ticket. I told her that she was abusing her powers, and that I didn't care if this was unacceptable to her and that she should be ashamed. I then just left and she never got my VIN.

On the plus side, I know someone who's saved about as much in road tolls as those stupid tickets by driving through the collection plazas without license plates

 

[RJM62]

That's a horrible situation to be in. On the one hand, it is obviously incredibly unjust, on the other it would probably cost you much more than $115 to sue the city of this (if you even could).

That's about the only thing stopping me from marching into the courtroom after I pay the fine and suing the TEA, the ALJ, the Commissioner of Finance, and the Mayor in Small Claims Court (as it's called here).

A lawyer friend of mine said I also could file a conspiracy suit under federal Civil Rights law, pro se, and even ask for punitive damage on the grounds of "intentional and deliberate indifference" to my due process rights. That one's actually pretty tempting because, he says, the city routinely settles most federal cases that have some element of substance and where the damages sought are less than $25,000. Further, the city really doesn't want to take a chance of a federal finding that the PVB really is the racket that we all know it is. But even he admits that getting the case past the first step in the federal process would be a long shot and could take months or years.

On the plus side, I know someone who's saved about as much in road tolls as those stupid tickets by driving through the collection plazas without license plates

Ironically, the reason for my presence in Manhattan that day was to avoid paying tolls. I'm a shunpiker from way back. From where I live, the Holland Tunnel is the easiest way to get to New Jersey without paying a toll; and if I time the trip right, the traffic through Lower Manhattan usually isn't all that bad. I figure I've saved thousands of dollars in tolls over my lifetime by taking that route, so maybe I shouldn't be complaining.

Besides, the alternatives, such as taking the Verrazano Bridge ($11.00) -> Staten Island Expressway -> Outerbridge Crossing are no prize traffic-wise, either. You can spend hours on the SIE when it's backed up, which seems to happen with no rhyme or reason.

-Rich

 

[Cap'n Jack]

New York Drivers. You can have 'em.

Having driven 1/2 way across the country 3x, I'd say bad drivers are everywhere. They are just more concentrated in big cities due to the higher population density.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

NYC is almost its own country. Didn't someone on this board get a firearms violation transiting a legal firearm through LGA from another state? IIRC he let the airline know it was in his checked baggage and the counter person reported him.

 

[RJM62]

Both the state and the city are like countries unto themselves.

New York State forbids non-residents from possessing or transporting handguns, period, even if they have permits from their home states. There are a few exemptions for competitive shooters traveling to accredited matches, and hunters who hold non-resident NYS hunting licenses, but none for people who are simply traveling through the state.

New York City is even more extreme. The city doesn't even recognize permits issued by other jurisdictions in New York State. For example, a person who has a license to carry a pistol in Nassau County cannot even possess that pistol, locked in a case and unloaded, across the border in Queens County.

The only exemption is that non-NYC residents who hold permits issued by other NYS jurisdictions may transport a handgun, locked in a case in the trunk and unloaded, through NYC, if there is no other reasonable route between the departure and destination points and the trip is uninterrupted.

-Rich

 

[Anthony]

New York State forbids non-residents from possessing or transporting handguns, period, even if they have permits from their home states. There are a few exemptions for competitive shooters traveling to accredited matches, and hunters who hold non-resident NYS hunting licenses, but none for people who are simply traveling through the state.

Rich? Is this true? I didn't realize you couldn't even transport a firearm THROUGH NYS unloaded and locked up. Really?

 

[RJM62]

Rich? Is this true? I didn't realize you couldn't even transport a firearm THROUGH NYS unloaded and locked up. Really?

Yes, it's true, but only for handguns. A non-resident cannot legally transport a handgun through New York State except as previously mentioned.

This doesn't apply to rifles or shotguns, however. NYS (with the exception of NYC) does not register or license shotguns or rifles, nor does it prohibit non-residents from possessing or transporting rifles or shotguns for legitimate hunting or sporting purposes within the state.

New York City does require that rifles and shotguns be registered. There's a 24-hour exemption, however, to accommodate transients who pass through the city to go hunting Upstate.

http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm

-Rich

 

[gismo]

Yes, it's true, but only for handguns. A non-resident cannot legally transport a handgun through New York State except as previously mentioned.

This doesn't apply to rifles or shotguns, however. NYS (with the exception of NYC) does not register or license shotguns or rifles, nor does it prohibit non-residents from possessing or transporting rifles or shotguns for legitimate hunting or sporting purposes within the state.

New York City does require that rifles and shotguns be registered. There's a 24-hour exemption, however, to accommodate transients who pass through the city to go hunting Upstate.

http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm

-Rich

Are any laws violated if a pilot flies his airplane over the State of New York with an unloaded (or loaded) handgun in the airplane? If that's legal, what about if he stops for fuel or an emergency assuming the gun is left in the airplane?

 

[jesse]

Are any laws violated if a pilot flies his airplane over the State of New York with an unloaded (or loaded) handgun in the airplane? If that's legal, what about if he stops for fuel or an emergency assuming the gun is left in the airplane?

I really don't know how that works out. The differing firearm laws between states becomes very confusing. I always check state and local laws before I carry a gun through their area. On a long trip this can be a lot of research. Some of the local laws you never will discover until they charge you via them. For example there are cities in Nebraska that try to outlaw the state's CCW program ..even though the state says they cannot do so. Checking the book of every city you drive through is not easy.

My Nebraska conceal and carry permit is not valid in Minnesota. My Utah permit which I received through the same class is valid in Minnesota. Sigh...

Legally carrying a gun is not easy. Illegally carrying it on the other hand is quite easy.

 

[Kelvin]

Legally carrying a gun is not easy. Illegally carrying it on the other hand is quite easy.

Yep...and it shouldn't need to be like that...

 

[Dean]

The other big racket they have going out there is all the ******** toll roads. When I went to Maine to pick up my airplane it cost me over $50.00 to drive through NJ and NY. I bypassed both on the way home.

 

[RJM62]

Are any laws violated if a pilot flies his airplane over the State of New York with an unloaded (or loaded) handgun in the airplane? If that's legal, what about if he stops for fuel or an emergency assuming the gun is left in the airplane?

I have no idea. I know the basics of the non-resident gun laws for the benefit of friends and relatives from out of town who come to visit. Anything beyond that, I really can't say.

I can say that at least in New York City, the real cops (unlike Traffic Enforcement Agents) generally aren't looking for extra work bothering people who aren't creating a problem. Up in the boonies... can't say for sure.

-Rich

 

[ScottM]

.

Legally carrying a gun is not easy. Illegally carrying it on the other hand is quite easy.

Yep...and it shouldn't need to be like that...

----------

Legally being a pilot is not easy. Illegally being a pilot on the other hand is quite easy.

Yep...and it shouldn't need to be like that...

-------------

Legally being a financial planner is not easy. Illegally being a financial planner on the other hand is quite easy.

Yep...and it shouldn't need to be like that...

-----------

Legally carrying a nuclear weapon is not easy. Illegally carrying a nuclear weaponplanner on the other hand is quite easy.

Yep...and it shouldn't need to be like that...

-----------

Why is the first example different that the rest?

Doing anything right is always harder than doing it wrong.

 

[gismo]

Why is the first example different that the rest?

You mean besides the issue that all but the first (or maybe the first two) aren't true?

Doing anything right is always harder than doing it wrong.

I think Jesse's point is that handgun laws seem to make life rather difficult for law abiding gun owners while having little or no impact on the criminals it's supposed to impede. (Hope this doesn't cross into SZ material).

 

[ScottM]

You mean besides the issue that all but the first (or maybe the first two) aren't true?

I don't know why you think those first may not be true. But that is another discussion.

I think Jesse's point is that handgun laws seem to make life rather difficult for law abiding gun owners while having little or no impact on the criminals it's supposed to impede. (Hope this doesn't cross into SZ material).

So should we get rid of all laws then? After all laws only really make thing difficult for those that follow them. Criminals have no issues not following laws. Therefore, laws have no impact on criminals nor do laws impede them in their criminal endeavors.

I just got done watching 60 Minutes about a financial planner who did not like to follow the laws. It was Bernie Madoff BTW. He was unimpeded by all the laws and regulation when he stole 36 billion dollars. Should the reaction be to just remove the regulations since it did nothing to stop him but made it harder for honest financial planners to run their business?

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Scott- I'm not grokking your argument.

Jesse tries to follow the rules, but finds they are a maze. One shouldn't need a law degree to carry something legally. The rules for carrying a firearm are rather byzantine, even within a state.

In contrast it is relatively easy to follow the rules when flying.

 

[ScottM]

Scott- I'm not grokking your argument.

Jesse tries to follow the rules, but finds they are a maze. One shouldn't need a law degree to carry something legally. The rules for carrying a firearm are rather byzantine, even within a state.

In contrast it is relatively easy to follow the rules when flying.

Ok I get that argument. What we need is firearms-law-reform.

I think the problem is that if anyone were to ever try that there would be two sides at polar opposites screaming at the top of their lungs a bunch of ridiculous stuff and nothing would get done at all.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Ok I get that argument. What we need is firearms-law-reform.

And I now understand what you were saying.

I think the problem is that if anyone were to ever try that there would be two sides at polar opposites screaming at the top of their lungs a bunch of ridiculous stuff and nothing would get done at all.

This is SO true. Even if something sensible came out, the other side would shoot it down simply because they didn't think of it.

 

[wsuffa]

I did some work one time for a group in Missouri. The guy I was working with had (at that time) recently visited Washington, DC with his family. He parked down near the Mall, and got back to his car with 5 minutes left on the parking meter and the meter maid putting a parking ticket on the windshield. He asked what she was doing, and she said "tough, if you want to challenge it, go to court". Took a picture and decided to challenge it.

At the time, there was a "walk-in" process for contesting parking tickets (I believe that's changed). So, he went into the court, and when he was up in front of the judge. Told his story. Judge ordered the Baliff to get the meter maid in there to see what she had to say. She arrived, and told the judge that, yes, that's correct. Judge dismissed the ticket, apologized to my friend, and told the meter maid that he'd make sure that her supervisor knew what she'd done.

My friend got outside and saw the meter maid. She came up to him and said "I want to thank you for doing that. They will suspend me with pay for 5 days, and I need some time off. Thank you VERY much!"

Sigh.

 

[gismo]

Ok I get that argument. What we need is firearms-law-reform.

I think the problem is that if anyone were to ever try that there would be two sides at polar opposites screaming at the top of their lungs a bunch of ridiculous stuff and nothing would get done at all.

Prolly close to how we got were we are already. Emotions not logic seems to be behind a large part of the gun laws (and liquor laws for that matter).

 

[sba55]

A lawyer friend of mine said I also could file a conspiracy suit under federal Civil Rights law, pro se, and even ask for punitive damage on the grounds of "intentional and deliberate indifference" to my due process rights. That one's actually pretty tempting because, he says, the city routinely settles most federal cases that have some element of substance and where the damages sought are less than $25,000.

I like that idea. If I was a lawyer, I'd do that - seems like not only are the chances of winning something fairly high, this scheme really is pretty obviously a violation of process rights - "sure, you can appeal, but it will cost you $LOTS and we won't tell you when we will decide your appeal". Outrageous!

The city has now threatened me with booting my car when I get another ticket and if I don't pay the outstanding ones. Sadly for them, my car is now on the way to California....

-Felix

 

[Danos]

A friend of mine parked next to a cardboard box in NYC and went into a store. When he got back a cop was taking the box off of a fire plug and writing him a ticket so he snapped a shot of it with his phone. He confronted the cop just as he was scanning his car. It went to court and my friend won.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Yes, it's true, but only for handguns. A non-resident cannot legally transport a handgun through New York State except as previously mentioned.

This doesn't apply to rifles or shotguns, however. NYS (with the exception of NYC) does not register or license shotguns or rifles, nor does it prohibit non-residents from possessing or transporting rifles or shotguns for legitimate hunting or sporting purposes within the state.

New York City does require that rifles and shotguns be registered. There's a 24-hour exemption, however, to accommodate transients who pass through the city to go hunting Upstate.

http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm

-Rich

That doesn't sound right to me. It's a matter of Federal law - there's some Federal law regarding transport of firearms; they must be locked in the trunk, or something like that.

So, that law in NY is unenforceable.

Check that out for yourself before you listen to me, though. I haven't bothered checking gun laws in years; the two states I spend most of my time in - Colo. and Ariz. - aren't terribly restrictive.

 

[RJM62]

That doesn't sound right to me. It's a matter of Federal law - there's some Federal law regarding transport of firearms; they must be locked in the trunk, or something like that.

So, that law in NY is unenforceable.

Check that out for yourself before you listen to me, though. I haven't bothered checking gun laws in years; the two states I spend most of my time in - Colo. and Ariz. - aren't terribly restrictive.

You're probably right. The fact that a law may be unenforceable, unconstitutional, or just plain dumb has never deterred New York politicians, anyway.

-Rich

 

[Paul Allen]

Federal gun laws permit you to transport an unloaded handgun locked in your trunk. This includes NY. You must pass through the state and you cannot spend the night in a hotel or anywhere else.

 

[dmccormack]

Federal gun laws permit you to transport an unloaded handgun locked in your trunk. This includes NY. You must pass through the state and you cannot spend the night in a hotel or anywhere else.

See what happens if you get pulled over in NYC and have said firearm in your vehicle.

If you tell the police, "There is a firearm in the trunk," you will lose it. If you don't and they find it, things may get ugly.

I stopped by a dealer in Long Island and was looking at H&K and Sigs. When the guy behind the counter found out I was from PA he took the gun back -- "I can't even let you hold it."

 

[TMetzinger]

Federal gun laws permit you to transport an unloaded handgun locked in your trunk. This includes NY. You must pass through the state and you cannot spend the night in a hotel or anywhere else.

Yep, they do. And if you bring a DOJ lawyer and an FBI agent with you, you might avoid the hassles you would get otherwise, including being arrested and booked, and possibly even convicted (which you would hopefully eventually overturn on appeal).

Without the federal presence, you're going to have a painful road to victory, even if that victory is assured.

There are other places the same, where even though a state law specifically allows something and prohibits localities from pre-empting it, people still get arrested, have their property seized, and get to spend time making the courts enforce the law on the locality.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

See what happens if you get pulled over in NYC and have said firearm in your vehicle.

If you tell the police, "There is a firearm in the trunk," you will lose it. If you don't and they find it, things may get ugly.

I stopped by a dealer in Long Island and was looking at H&K and Sigs. When the guy behind the counter found out I was from PA he took the gun back -- "I can't even let you hold it."

You have to wonder why there haven't been some serious lawsuits over this (who knows, maybe there have been - I couldn't care less about what happens in NY).

But, I'm guessing there haven't been because both sides have concerns about what the result might be. But, in light of the USSC's decision in Heller, I expect various groups (on both sides) to be a little more eager to test the waters.

At any rate, those of you who might travel with guns - either by car or by air - would do well to keep your ears to the ground in the next few years. I don't want to to get to far into SZ material, but I think this is ok: Heller, decided in 2007 (or was it '08?), has really opened the door to some serious regulation and restriction; there are a few remaining issues in regard to details, but I expect that we'll see a lot of new regulations in various localities in the next few years, if it isn't happening already.

So, my advice is this: know the law, and don't rely on 3rd-party websites to tell you what it is. While I'm not willing to give legal advice in states I'm not licensed in (everywhere but Md. and Colo.), if anyone wants to send me a PM, I'll be happy to tell you where to look to find the actual law - which, when it comes to guns, are pretty decipherable.

 

[alaskaflyer]

So, my advice is this: know the law, and don't rely on 3rd-party websites to tell you what it is. While I'm not willing to give legal advice in states I'm not licensed in (everywhere but Md. and Colo.), if anyone wants to send me a PM, I'll be happy to tell you where to look to find the actual law - which, when it comes to guns, are pretty decipherable.

My advice is: don't live in NY. Or DC, either.

 

[dmccormack]

You have to wonder why there haven't been some serious lawsuits over this (who knows, maybe there have been - I couldn't care less about what happens in NY).

But, I'm guessing there haven't been because both sides have concerns about what the result might be. But, in light of the USSC's decision in Heller, I expect various groups (on both sides) to be a little more eager to test the waters.

National gun laws are a patchwork of law, local custom, and public perception that runs the gamut from Chicago and New York to Texas and everything in between (PA is a shall issue state but doesn't have the Castle Doctrine -- State law trumps local but Philadelphia still imposes local regulations, ad naseum...)

 

[jesse]

So, my advice is this: know the law, and don't rely on 3rd-party websites to tell you what it is. While I'm not willing to give legal advice in states I'm not licensed in (everywhere but Md. and Colo.), if anyone wants to send me a PM, I'll be happy to tell you where to look to find the actual law - which, when it comes to guns, are pretty decipherable.

The state laws are generally pretty easy to find and understand. I've also noticed some serious issues with the data on 3rd party websites.

The problem though -- is when local extends the states laws or completely over-rides them. This gets *very* hard to figure out. As I drive through Nebraska how exactly am I supposed to research the municipal laws of every city I traverse? Hell -- how do I even easily figure out the city limits? There are several cases in Nebraska where the local attempts to over-ride the state. T For example -- to carry in Omaha I have to register my gun(s) with Omaha's police department and carry paperwork showing I did. The state does not say this is a requirement. There are some cities in Nebraska where carrying with a Nebraska permit is completely illegal in their eyes. The state even says they can't -- but that doesn't mean that it won't be an expensive fight.

What sucks more -- is the fact that people from outside Nebraska would have no idea that the above city laws could make what they're doing illegal. They did their due-dilliegence and acquried a conceal and carry permit recognized by the State of Nebraska but still find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

How do I know traveling through other states that the above scenarios don't exist? I don't.

I just research the state laws and the city if it is a large city. From there I print out all the laws and carry them with me. Don't expect a small town cop in Minnesota to know that Minnesota honors your Utah permit..because they don't know that. It's much nicer if you can show the officer instead of having to show the judge after the officer arrests you.

 

[Ghery]

The state laws are generally pretty easy to find and understand. I've also noticed some serious issues with the data on 3rd party websites.

The problem though -- is when local extends the states laws or completely over-rides them. This gets *very* hard to figure out. As I drive through Nebraska how exactly am I supposed to research the municipal laws of every city I traverse? Hell -- how do I even easily figure out the city limits? There are several cases in Nebraska where the local attempts to over-ride the state. T For example -- to carry in Omaha I have to register my gun(s) with Omaha's police department and carry paperwork showing I did. The state does not say this is a requirement. There are some cities in Nebraska where carrying with a Nebraska permit is completely illegal in their eyes. The state even says they can't -- but that doesn't mean that it won't be an expensive fight.

What sucks more -- is the fact that people from outside Nebraska would have no idea that the above city laws could make what they're doing illegal. They did their due-dilliegence and acquried a conceal and carry permit recognized by the State of Nebraska but still find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

How do I know traveling through other states that the above scenarios don't exist? I don't.

I just research the state laws and the city if it is a large city. From there I print out all the laws and carry them with me. Don't expect a small town cop in Minnesota to know that Minnesota honors your Utah permit..because they don't know that. It's much nicer if you can show the officer instead of having to show the judge after the officer arrests you.

Well, just come to the state of Washington. State law (and constitution) trumps local law. In spite of many attempts by the mayor of Seattle, he can't ban guns, much as he'd like to. State says NO! Follow state law and you're in the clear around here.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

National gun laws are a patchwork of law, local custom, and public perception that runs the gamut from Chicago and New York to Texas and everything in between (PA is a shall issue state but doesn't have the Castle Doctrine -- State law trumps local but Philadelphia still imposes local regulations, ad naseum...)

I'm just saying...expect it to get worse.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

The state laws are generally pretty easy to find and understand. I've also noticed some serious issues with the data on 3rd party websites.

The problem though -- is when local extends the states laws or completely over-rides them. This gets *very* hard to figure out. As I drive through Nebraska how exactly am I supposed to research the municipal laws of every city I traverse? Hell -- how do I even easily figure out the city limits? There are several cases in Nebraska where the local attempts to over-ride the state. T For example -- to carry in Omaha I have to register my gun(s) with Omaha's police department and carry paperwork showing I did. The state does not say this is a requirement. There are some cities in Nebraska where carrying with a Nebraska permit is completely illegal in their eyes. The state even says they can't -- but that doesn't mean that it won't be an expensive fight.

What sucks more -- is the fact that people from outside Nebraska would have no idea that the above city laws could make what they're doing illegal. They did their due-dilliegence and acquried a conceal and carry permit recognized by the State of Nebraska but still find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

How do I know traveling through other states that the above scenarios don't exist? I don't.

I just research the state laws and the city if it is a large city. From there I print out all the laws and carry them with me. Don't expect a small town cop in Minnesota to know that Minnesota honors your Utah permit..because they don't know that. It's much nicer if you can show the officer instead of having to show the judge after the officer arrests you.

I had typed out a long response, but the most I can really say is that it's a poor situation.