NTSB report on Sully's use of AoA

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Maui Cirrus CFII, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Maui Cirrus CFII

    Maui Cirrus CFII Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Maui Hawaii
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AoA
    Interesting read
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Maui Cirrus CFII

    Maui Cirrus CFII Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Maui Hawaii
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AoA
    2
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,237
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Throttle
    Posting excerpts from NTSB report does not clean messkit.
    - Confucius
     
  4. iflyforfun

    iflyforfun Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2010
    Messages:
    292
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iflyforfun
    I flat out do not understand why everybody feels the need to pile on. A pointless quip does not an intelligent man make - Confusius (I don't think so). AOA may not be the do all / end all, but it an educated person cannot argue that it is a WORSE indicator than airspeed. Yes, we all need to look outside the window. Yes, we all need to know how to fly our planes. No, a donut will probably not save someone who would otherwise spin in on final, but how can anyone possible argue that airspeed is a better than angle of attack? Why the compelling need to criticize and heckle this guy? Fine, he over posted and a bunch of whiners think he's "selling". I just do not understand all this negativity ... like a bunch of old ladies sitting around trying to impress each other with how whiny they can be.
     
  5. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,237
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Throttle
    Post an AOA sales pitch once and move on. Post it multiple times and you're just a fool. Support someone posting their sales pitch multiple times and you are a bigger fool. This is true whether you "get it" or not.
     
  6. iflyforfun

    iflyforfun Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2010
    Messages:
    292
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iflyforfun
    And mindless heckling ... that definitely doesn't make you a fool, it makes you "one of the kool kids". I don't see how I was supporting, more just baffled by the compelling need of so many to pile on the heckle and hate band wagon. Interesting that you comment on my "support" and not my comment that "how can anyone possibly argue that airspeed is a better than angle of attack".
     
    Sundancer likes this.
  7. JCranford

    JCranford Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,635
    Location:
    North TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JCranford
    Mainly cuz the guy's 'piling on' with the endless AoA posts...
    :confused:
     
    ircphoenix and Fearless Tower like this.
  8. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,688
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    I have no idea what AoA is (A-holes of America?) and I refuse to find out because of how annoying this guy is.
     
  9. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,002
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Who argued that airspeed is better than AOA?
     
  10. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    13,772
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Oh gawd, another one.

    At least peddle a better AOA system, that bulky thing looks like a home pregnancy test and a TV remote had a bastard love child.


    If someone wanted a AOA, seems like the alpha Valkyrie is the no brainer way to go




    http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com
     
    deonb likes this.
  11. nauga

    nauga Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,411
    Location:
    Rockwood Storage Facility
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bravo Seriously
    Yes, it says he was referencing an FMS-computed speed for best L/D, not an AOA, and he did not fly the green dot after extending the flaps. Your title,"NTSB report on Sully's use of AOA," is misleading, the report is not on his use of AOA, and the excerpts posted do not say anything about AOA in the cockpit. I'm in favor of AOA in the GA cockpit but you do yourself no favors with cryptic posts that give the appearance that you don't fully understand the concept.

    Nauga,
    the and indexer
     
  12. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    528
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    Amount of Annoying.

    That's the new AoA, and it's off the charts. GD it if you guys respond then my ignore feature isn't as effective.
     
    mulligan and SoCal RV Flyer like this.
  13. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    5,981
    Location:
    NM or AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    I don't know about in the big iron, but I flew a C-206 that had an AoA in it. The only thing it told me was that I was doing the landings correctly.
     
  14. abqtj

    abqtj Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    abqtj
    I'll have to go back and re-watch the movie
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  15. Cavorter

    Cavorter Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Messages:
    160
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Robert
    I read the attachments... Am I supposed to be impressed? Am I supposed to rush out and buy one of these devices and maybe hire the OP at $1500/day? Sorry I am not impressed.
     
  16. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    31,056
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Everskyward
    The OP persists even though he is driving away customers with every thread. Those who are interested in an AOA are likely to go elsewhere.
     
    deonb, rsleeds, Cajun_Flyer and 4 others like this.
  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,002
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Aspen has a better AOA system than the KLR-10.

     
  18. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,399
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    OkieAviator
    I started to play the video and was extremely disappointed that Dick Collins wasn't sitting in the plane. I hastily closed it in disgust....
     
  19. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,237
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Throttle
    Clearly you are mistaken: 1) Buddy Holly died in a Bo. 2) There is no blue donut.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  20. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,672
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sundog
    Some kind of emotional backlash / weirdness thingy here? Some of you guys have a girlfriend leave you for a Maui flight instructor? Or run off with an AoA salesman?

    I read the guy's posts; he's not obnoxious, or even blatantly making a sale's pitch. He's talking about AoAs for the most part, or stuff related/tangential to AoA. Which is at least as useful as the constant babble concerning PIC time and/or barbecue sauce. Dang, if his post titles/subjects aren't precise, unambiguous, and spot-on, so what? Most of the rest of ours aren't either. I tend to ignore or skip posts I prefer not to read. . .

    Disclaimer - I don't know the guy, never been to Maui, and while I have flown some with an AoA, I'm not emotionally committed or financially invovled with AoAs.
     
  21. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,237
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Throttle
    Clearly you are mistaken: 1) Buddy Holly died in a Bo. 2) There is no blue donut.
     
  22. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    528
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    It'd be different if he wasn't selling something. He is. THAT is what taints it. Along with the general tone.
     
  23. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    5,530
    Location:
    PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PAFlyer
    [​IMG]
     
    eman1200 likes this.
  24. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,002
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    He's trying to sell his Bendix / King product. It's that simple. He's also making comparisons to how the military uses AOA to how GA can use AOA. Apples and oranges.
     
    Fearless Tower likes this.
  25. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    12,958
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I think he came on too strong with too many threads at once. Didn't really bother me. I just read and contributed to the comments anyway. Didn't watch any of his videos.
     
  26. BalooAirService

    BalooAirService Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    108
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cloud Kicker
    agreed @ Iflyforfun.

    its cause some people really do just sit around ALL DAY waiting/hoping to send replies in forum's.
    pretty pathetic.
    Apparently this guy likes his AOA.. well, who cares. Im sure someone can block his acct (idk.. POA mgmnt I guess) if he is truly doing something wrong/annoying.
    moving on to something else.
     
  27. Cavorter

    Cavorter Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Messages:
    160
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Robert
    The rest of us don't like being spammed. We don't like being called at home or on our cell phones or getting unwanted emails selling something suspect. This is what is happening here. We don't need this character trying to tell us something. We are all intelligent here. We know how to fly and how to land a plane. We know about AoA indicators. If we want one, we will get one. We don't need this annoying spammer trying to convince us.

    If you enjoy that, you are a lucky individual. Because there is a lot of this type of behavior out there. The majority of the rest of us don't care for it.
     
    Velocity173 and Flymeariver like this.
  28. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,688
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    No, never had a girlfriend... I don't swing that way. I just find it obnoxious for sales people to spam the boards. If he was actually contributing to conversations/dialog and not just trying to make money or generate money for the company, maybe I'd find him less annoying.

    Everywhere I turn, people are trying to sell me something. One nice thing about these boards is the lack of ads. Would rather that not change.
     
    MetalCloud, Stingray Don and rsleeds like this.
  29. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,207
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoCal RV Flyer
    I don't have an AoA indicator on my plane. Heck, I don't even have a stall warning buzzer, and I haven't died yet. I do like donuts, with sprinkles.

    Next.
     
    Omalley1537 and Velocity173 like this.
  30. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,818
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    hmm....read his threads and complain..OR...click on his profile and hit ignore, you will never be spammed again. Just my observation.
     
  31. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,672
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sundog
    Dang, I missed that vote . . .
     
  32. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,672
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sundog
    Apologies, I am corrected, IRT the girlfriend thing; I tend to attribute righteous indignation to guys. . .and just my opinion, I could be wrong; he did some of both - a very, very mild pitch. . .and contributed to AoA discussion, and some interesting, if not necessarily griping, links.
     
  33. Maui Cirrus CFII

    Maui Cirrus CFII Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Maui Hawaii
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AoA
    All I am trying to do is raise awareness. Every 4 days a pilot is killed because of loss of control. So let's see by Thursday 1 more dead pilot, husband,father or mother.

    I'll tell you that even CFIs have been angry at me,because they either don't understand it, no one taught them or they hate the fact that one of their peers is trying to do something about it.

    No where in my videos am I asking people to buy it. I am trying to share the virtues of this instrument through education.

    For those that say you don't need it. Maybe you don't. But for someone looking to add another safety layer to their flying skills then it's a good choice.

    Look the reason you don't see them every where is because the margins on these is so low no one is motivated to sell them. Sportys makes more money selling their videos than this. But for a little flight school it's a nice extra couple bucks. Plus the safety benefit is the feel good about the sale. There are some who are super pilots that only need a scarf and goggles. I'm not one and haven't met many either.

    I apologize for those that have been offended by my efforts. But I don't apologize for raising awareness and selling to some pilots who take this stuff seriously. One of my customers will avoid a bad situation one day.

    If we can bring the 40% accident rate down to 20% we are all better off. Let's make it one dead pilot in 8 days instead.

    Ps all the data is on the NTSB site. I don't make this up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  34. Maui Cirrus CFII

    Maui Cirrus CFII Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Maui Hawaii
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AoA
    The AoA is on the airspeed tape.
     
  35. Acrodustertoo

    Acrodustertoo Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,046
    Location:
    BFE Montana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Buford T. Justice
    Your buttocks should tell you if you are landing correctly.
    If you have to change undies = bad landing
    If your buttocks hurt and are bruised = bad landing
    All is good and clean undies = good enough landing
     
    Zeldman and Sundancer like this.
  36. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    12,958
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I've had all three and undies remained clean, no difference IOW. :dunno:
     
    SoCal RV Flyer and Zeldman like this.
  37. Acrodustertoo

    Acrodustertoo Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,046
    Location:
    BFE Montana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Buford T. Justice
    You are lying then !
     
  38. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,688
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    Nice... I haven't been called "righteous" since the 80s!
    upload_2017-1-10_7-38-35.png

    You're pretty gnarly too ;)
     
    StevieTimes and labbadabba like this.
  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,002
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    But raising awareness isn't necessary. You say the FAA has taken a gentle approach but I disagree. Everywhere you look, AoA devices are being pushed on us with no real data supporting a reduction in accidents. Every flight student is taught the importance of AoA in training. We all know or should know the relationship between AoB vs stall speed and the importance of keeping the ball centered. Your spin accidents are a human factors problem and not a technological problem.

    Look at the vid I attached with Phil Boyer flying his A36. He's flying an AoA approach, which I would assume is L/D max but he didn't go into that. At any rate, an A36 is normally flown between 80-90kts on final. His AoA shows for this particular day to be around 85-86kts. So basically Vref somewhat matches AOA. At least close enough not to cause an accident and I seriously doubt will affect how smooth the landings are either.

    So, the selling point once again is the spin on the turn to final. Or that's at least the AoA proponents would like to believe. In reality most stall / spin accidents are manuvering and not the turn to final. Looking at Phil's vid again, we can see an overshoot to final. Not a very realistic overshoot though because he let the speed bleed down to 81 kts. Why fly 81 kts on base when your normal approach speed is around 86 kts? Well, only way that is going to happen is if you have a pilot that is task saturated with what's going on outside the aircraft. No AoA device is going to solve that problem any more than a stall horn blaring or the seat of the pants pre stall buffet or even a stick shaker (Colagan). What's more important is, the AoA device isn't going to warn the pilot of being uncoordinated either. Phil could've stalled in his bank (I estimate around 74 kts) but if he's coordinated and reacts promptly, he won't crash. Problem is, when it comes to stress and task saturation, even when faced with good, accurate data, most pilots can't absorb the information...even if it's in your LoS.

    Then, the comparison of military use of AoA to civilian. Two different animals. For one, the speeds and AoA vs endurance are different with jet vs prop. The jet isn't using max L/D on final either. It's an optimum AoA. A jet can have significant fuel savings on a XC vs a small GA single. It's critical to fly correct AoA on final to a carrier while not so critical for a small GA. Some jets have AoA indicators that adjust for flap / gear deployment. From what I read, the KLR-10 doesn't have the capability to do that. Finally, military aircraft (fighters) are max performing their aircraft. Even with AoA indicators they depart controlled flight from time to time. GA aircraft aren't pushing their aircraft that hard. The manuvering accidents that do occur, will still happen with an AoA devices. You can't fix stupid when pilots are using hazardous ADM.

    I agree, an AoA is a better depiction of an impending stall vs a stall horn or light. In rare instances it might make a pilot react properly to a stall but, it's by no means a cure all to the stall / spin accidents. I sure wouldn't call them a "game changer."
     
    SoCal RV Flyer, dmspilot and deonb like this.
  40. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    31,056
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Everskyward
    I fly an airplane with an AOA indicator. I rarely look at it. I have asked at least two former military aviators who flew off carriers, and used the one in their military airplane. They don't use the one in this civilian business jet either.

    The only situation I can think of where it might be more useful than a simple airspeed indicator is if you are trying to land on a very short runway and being right on speed is critical .

    Or if you like gadgets...
     
    MetalCloud likes this.