NOW I'm a pilot

[Henning]

Look as well at my throttle-prop selection and prop verification technique. It is not taught anywhere nor endorsed or even recognized by the FAA, however when open minded high time MEIs like Dr Bruce give it a try, they come back trying to figure out how to integrate the technique into instruction; they are already sold at the personal level. ME operations is like any other, PTS is MINIMUM standards for operations and the POH is a guide that sets reference points with detailed scope and adjustments for conditions.

 

[jesse]

I don't have it with me, it's in the plane in Atlanta in a hangar and I am in Ft Lauderdale too broke to fly anything at all; so simply put, I can't give you that information as I don't have it memorized of available as reference.

Ok. I don't have it either -- but I did read it in detail when I did my CP-AMEL ride in a 310 and I *think* I remember it saying something like "out of usable runway - BRAKES APPLY / GEAR UP".

I can see why you might do what you do and I'm not going to fault you for it. But my point is that you acted as if what Ed was taught was just TERRIBLE when in reality it's pretty standard and taught quite widespread...and I think the manual for the very airplane you own suggests it. I can see both sides. To each their own.

 

[Henning]

Ok. I don't have it either -- but I did read it in detail when I did my CP-AMEL ride in a 310 and I *think* I remember it saying something like "out of usable runway - BRAKES APPLY / GEAR UP".

I can see why you might do what you do and I'm not going to fault you for it. But my point is that you acted as if what Ed was taught was just TERRIBLE when in reality it's pretty standard and taught quite widespread...and I think the manual for the very airplane you own suggests it. I can see both sides. To each their own.

I'm sorry I didn't make my self clear, I don't think the action he was taught is critically wrong for the situation. I think the criteria he gave for coming to that conclusion were critically wrong in a ME application and the POH criteria for 'usable runway' are indeed vague especially in the light of the emergency deceleration value on ones belly is greater than on wheels. There is also less risk of structural rupture and breech with exposure to outside conditions in the cabin at the end of the runway on a nose gear collapse. The POH and/or AFM are edited with a lawyers jaundiced eye for incompetence.

 

[Bob Noel]

I'm sure we all have had that moment. You are walking away from your aircraft mentally reviewing your flight when it hits you: That was really difficult, but I pulled it off without much drama......HEY!!! I'm finally good!!! Mastering this crazy game is, of course, an elusive goal that few can honestly say they have attained. But anyone who has flown enough can look back on their experience and find their rite of passage. Anyone care to share?

I've never had a flight after which I had to say "that was really difficult"

Maybe it's just luck

Maybe it's because I try very hard to confine my flying to the easier conditions (decision making to avoid needing special piloting skills).

 

[Skylane81E]

Landing what was left of the Arrow with the gear down after it got smashed up by a departing cowling.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Landing what was left of the Arrow with the gear down after it got smashed up by a departing cowling.

Do you have photos?

 

[Skylane81E]

Do you have photos?

 

[EdFred]

Looks like the mythbusters chicken through a windscreen episode.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

OMG do you / your passenger still have a face???

 

[Skylane81E]

Pic doesn't show the damage to the stabilator or the left cowl half blanking the IB portio of the left wing.

 

[Skylane81E]

OMG do you / your passenger still have a face???

No passenger, I was unhurt.

I found about a pound of fiberglass on the hat shelf in the back, a passenger would have been in BAD shape. I also don't know what kind of medical aid is available at 3W2...

Yeah this happened over lake Erie.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

No passenger, I was unhurt.

I found about a pound of fiberglass on the hat shelf in the back, a passenger would have been in BAD shape. I also don't know what kind of medical aid is available at 3W2...

Yeah this happened over lake Erie.

Holy crap they would have lost a lot of blood.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Never the way I was taught in a twin. Lesson one by a very competent instructor: Vr>positive rate>Gear Up>Accelerate for Blue line before you even leave G/E. You never have gear hanging when you are flying and you always want as much speed and altitude as fast as you can to buy you time to feather and keep it going under control.

A quick check of the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook chapter on multi-engine confirms your training and advice (except for wanting as much speed as possible):

"Landing gear retraction should normally occur after a positive rate of climb is established."

"After leaving the ground, altitude gain is more important than achieving an excess of airspeed. Experience has shown that excessive speed cannot be effectively converted into altitude in the event of engine failure. Altitude gives the pilot time to think and react."

In the chapter on complex it states:

"Normally, the landing gear should be retracted after lift-off when the airplane has reached an altitude where, in the event of an engine failure or other emergency requiring an aborted takeoff, the airplane could no longer be landed on the runway. This procedure, however, may not apply to all situations."

I've never flown complex, so only know what the books claim.

 

[Ted]

No, what kills you is that you had committed to a poor thought process using considerations that don't apply to ME flying. While in this circumstance it leads to an acceptable conclusion, it does so for the wrong reason which if used in other circumstance will kill you.

I think we're having a communication problem here (surprised?).

Let's see if we can turn this into a useful discussion rather than an argument. That will be my attempt, anyway.

First off, Henning is right that a safe outcome does not necessarily mean that the "right" decision was made. For example: someone I know flew a 182, intentionally, on a flight that left him with about 15 minutes of fuel left into an airport that was OVC006, and built up about 2" of ice in the process. He knew there was icing, he knew the TAFs. He landed safely, no damage was done to him or the plane. It was not a good decision to make the flight for a number of reasons, including the fact that I was flying an empty FIKI Navajo to the same airport and he could have come with me...

It is established that there are different types of takeoffs. This is why we are taught short and soft field takeoffs and landings in addition to "normal". So really, there isn't much of a "normal" so much as varying types. What you're describing with the 11,000 ft runway I'd consider a "long field" takeoff, so add that to the list.

On anything from short field to normal (for most piston twins, let's say 5000 ft or less), once I've established that the plane is solidly in the air and flying with a positive rate established (i.e. I'm not worried about some gust of wind changing my lift and running me back into the ground) I pull the gear up. Once the gear is up, my hands are over to the props, same as you, and I fly away, ready to cage an engine that fails. From this point forward, the plan is to fly away.

On a long field takeoff, I'll keep the gear down a bit longer, because if I lose an engine, I don't want to have to call the insurance company, and my brakes work very effectively at stopping. Plus I'll be able to keep steering the plane. I'm still going slow, I can easily pull both back, point the nose at the ground, and come to a stop. If I run off the end of the runway, then, well, I'm at least no worse off than bellying in the plane. Meanwhile, I'll stay low to the ground, getting me accelerated towards blue line as quickly as possible.

Now, let's look at the advantages of pulling the gear up. Yes, you will accelerate marginally faster to blue line. But since in the case of the long field takeoff, that extra exposure is offset by a better option in case of the engine failing.

In the Navajo, if I'm heavy on a hot day and I lose an engine, even after the gear is up, I'll be in a heaping world of ****. If I have a long runway, you better believe I'm going to land the plane back on it, and both the owner and I will be a lot happier if it's in one piece.

ME isn't only about learning the physical differences in flying, it's also how we need to consider those differences and quirks in our operating process.

I agree. But it doesn't mean that one answer fits all situations.

In an emergency situation where you are going fast looking at the end, your belly is where you want to be, that's a hell of a good brake that is relatively easy to fix if desired.

In that situation, you're in a world of **** no matter what. I'm going to follow my decision matrix. Gear up, I'm flying away. And if I hit the trees, it just wasn't my day.

 

[Ted]

A quick check of the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook chapter on multi-engine confirms your training and advice (except for wanting as much speed as possible):

"Landing gear retraction should normally occur after a positive rate of climb is established."

"After leaving the ground, altitude gain is more important than achieving an excess of airspeed. Experience has shown that excessive speed cannot be effectively converted into altitude in the event of engine failure. Altitude gives the pilot time to think and react."

I'd agree with these statements overall. Typically in a twin you want to accelerate in a shallow climb towards blue line (Vyse). This normally works well since Vy is probably near or above blue line anyway.

I do think, though, that it's wise to leave the gear down until you've established that you're not going to land on the runway again. If nothing else, having it down will then help you in diving for the runway, and brakes are effective at stopping you.

In the chapter on complex it states:

"Normally, the landing gear should be retracted after lift-off when the airplane has reached an altitude where, in the event of an engine failure or other emergency requiring an aborted takeoff, the airplane could no longer be landed on the runway. This procedure, however, may not apply to all situations."

I think this does apply to both singles and twins. The main issue is when you're looking at a short field takeoff. You may not have enough room for an accelerate-stop (accelerate, rotate, engine fails, stop and brake). In that case, an engine failure results in a crash anyway, so therefore as soon as you have a positive rate you are already out of runway. Cleaning the plane up as quickly as possible will help you accelerate faster.

This doesn't apply to some planes. The 182RG comes to mind, because in the process of its gear retracting, it ends up presenting the broad side of the wheel to the wind, so retraction increases drag.

I've never flown complex, so only know what the books claim.

Well, hopefully we can keep this thread educational to provide some learning for you and others.

 

[Henning]

A quick check of the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook chapter on multi-engine confirms your training and advice (except for wanting as much speed as possible):

"Landing gear retraction should normally occur after a positive rate of climb is established."

"After leaving the ground, altitude gain is more important than achieving an excess of airspeed. Experience has shown that excessive speed cannot be effectively converted into altitude in the event of engine failure. Altitude gives the pilot time to think and react."

In the chapter on complex it states:

"Normally, the landing gear should be retracted after lift-off when the airplane has reached an altitude where, in the event of an engine failure or other emergency requiring an aborted takeoff, the airplane could no longer be landed on the runway. This procedure, however, may not apply to all situations."

I've never flown complex, so only know what the books claim.

I'm not talking about excess, I'm talking about the transition to minimums and placing my hands on the props once committed to going. I remember being taught positive rate gear up by the FAA. I remember Accelerate to Blue line, Minimum effective climb/minimum loss of altitude speed before you leave ground effect with the gear up and clean or + speed from a man who had been a B-24 left seater as they came on line in the 40s out of England.

 

[John Baker]

I thought I was pretty good until last Sunday. I had not flown for over a month, no big deal thought I. So, I'm all preflighted, getting ready to fire er up, when I discover I forgot my GPS hook up, so no GPS, poor visibility for VFR, 7 miles. Heck with it, I know what I'm doing, I'll use my VORs.

So, wind is 210/9 G 15, they are using 23 instead of 27, 27 is the one I'm used to. Everyone else is heading to the coast, so I decide to head east out over the mountains. I figure since the coast is jammed, poor visibility, that is not where I want to be.

I take off, my VOR tracking is right on, and I'm heading out V-66. When I'm about five miles past Loveland Res. I decide to head toward Julian VOR, so I turn north. There are a few cumulus clouds way out, no big deal. Then my #1 radio goes out.

As I'm cussing it, turning it on and off, checking fuses and such, and tracking #2 VOR radio, I notice that those cumulus clouds are a heck of a lot closer, and are rapidly building into towering cumulus. So being the great pilot that I am, I chickened out and did a 180.

So, I'm at 7,500' and have to drop down below 4,500' real soon to get under Bravo. Power back, get settled on my new track, and start in again trying to get #1 working. After what seemed like only a few minutes it came back on, all is good.

Then I sense something big to my immediate left, and take a glance....it's a mountain, and I'm below the top of it. I was about 500' AGL directly below me, and about a 1/4 mile away from the dirt on my left. I had descended a whole lot faster than I thought, and concentrating on the radio inside the cockpit.

I powered up, got my altitude back, and all was fine for the rest of the trip back to MYF.

I honestly do not know if I have a guardian angle or not, nor can I recall if I had been checking out what was in front of me. Remembering back, I think I was, but I am not sure. Not the great pilot I envisioned myself to be.

Several lessons here; Don't get lost in the cockpit, fly the airplane, don't just look at what's ahead, look all around. Most important though, fly more often.

-John

 

[Ted]

I'm sure we all have had that moment. You are walking away from your aircraft mentally reviewing your flight when it hits you: That was really difficult, but I pulled it off without much drama......HEY!!! I'm finally good!!! Mastering this crazy game is, of course, an elusive goal that few can honestly say they have attained. But anyone who has flown enough can look back on their experience and find their rite of passage. Anyone care to share?

Ok, now to the actual point of the question:

I'm not sure which flight that was for me. There are probably several, and then there were flights that made me think I didn't have a clue what I was doing.

Not too long after getting my private, I flew the Archer to New York City for the day, landing at White Plains. It was a beautiful VFR day. I was up in the air, everything went well. I had no problems. I landed, and felt as though I didn't have to work too hard. So I felt I had the hang of it somewhat. Perhaps it was then. Hard to say.

But I am working on writing another book about my first logbook. Maybe I should have finished the first book (on engines) prior, but I like multitasking.

 

[denverpilot]

Monkey wrench time:

Your 11,000' long runway is now magically at an airport above your single-engine service-ceiling DA.

Now what. Still going to pull that gear up the second you come off the ground?

 

[Ted]

Monkey wrench time:

Your 11,000' long runway is now magically at an airport above your single-engine service-ceiling DA.

Now what. Still going to pull that gear up the second you come off the ground?

I probably wouldn't change my procedure much. Of course, Henning's and my procedures are different.

The difference is I would understand that, in the event of an engine failure, it's no different than flying a single.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I thought I was pretty good until last Sunday. I had not flown for over a month, no big deal thought I. So, I'm all preflighted, getting ready to fire er up, when I discover I forgot my GPS hook up, so no GPS, poor visibility for VFR, 7 miles. Heck with it, I know what I'm doing, I'll use my VORs.

So, wind is 210/9 G 15, they are using 23 instead of 27, 27 is the one I'm used to. Everyone else is heading to the coast, so I decide to head east out over the mountains. I figure since the coast is jammed, poor visibility, that is not where I want to be.

I take off, my VOR tracking is right on, and I'm heading out V-66. When I'm about five miles past Loveland Res. I decide to head toward Julian VOR, so I turn north. There are a few cumulus clouds way out, no big deal. Then my #1 radio goes out.

As I'm cussing it, turning it on and off, checking fuses and such, and tracking #2 VOR radio, I notice that those cumulus clouds are a heck of a lot closer, and are rapidly building into towering cumulus. So being the great pilot that I am, I chickened out and did a 180.

So, I'm at 7,500' and have to drop down below 4,500' real soon to get under Bravo. Power back, get settled on my new track, and start in again trying to get #1 working. After what seemed like only a few minutes it came back on, all is good.

Then I sense something big to my immediate left, and take a glance....it's a mountain, and I'm below the top of it. I was about 500' AGL directly below me, and about a 1/4 mile away from the dirt on my left. I had descended a whole lot faster than I thought, and concentrating on the radio inside the cockpit.

I powered up, got my altitude back, and all was fine for the rest of the trip back to MYF.

I honestly do not know if I have a guardian angle or not, nor can I recall if I had been checking out what was in front of me. Remembering back, I think I was, but I am not sure. Not the great pilot I envisioned myself to be.

Several lessons here; Don't get lost in the cockpit, fly the airplane, don't just look at what's ahead, look all around. Most important though, fly more often.

-John

Thank you for posting this. Last night, with a VERY long engine run / taxi / runup (new pilot passenger) I still paid only a bit over $30 for 0.3 hobbs, one lap around the pattern. And that was in the big, expensive plane. If I'd been solo I would have saved money in the little one.

It was then and there (since I'd seen some rust before) that I told myself I would fly once per week, or at worst once every other week, for $30 or less, if that is what it takes. After work, at night, whatever. I had no idea how quickly my skills would fade. Sure, it is boring, but flying beats not flying and I can afford $30 per paycheck.

This, plus perhaps I should consider buying a simulator. I've sworn them off before, but now I don't know.

 

[Henning]

Monkey wrench time:

Your 11,000' long runway is now magically at an airport above your single-engine service-ceiling DA.

Now what. Still going to pull that gear up the second you come off the ground?

Yes, no matter what, before I leave ground effect my plane will be clean and ready to climb at max efficiency. If I am in G/E my potential to get by on seriously reduced power and high differential as I get the the other stowed or get power back on the other while applying flaps as well as trim to repitch for an easy low angle/vertical speed smooth, safe high G/E cushion rate in L/W belly landing which will get you stopped short and safe.

 

[Skylane81E]

Might also be worth noting that aircraft type should be considered. Ive heard that some 337 models can't climb well during gear retraction so they must stay down until clear of obstacles.

 

[GCA319]

Never get there. Kinda...

Have had a few flights where I was pleased with my performance considering where I came from prior -- but I keep that thought in check with, "I'm no Bob Hoover."

I just keep trying to make something better each flight. Sometimes something else atrophies while I focus on a trouble area.

With most recreational pilots who are darn serious about getting time in the air -- averaging roughly 4 flights a month (a flight a weekend), in a good month -- we're not flying enough to get into a super high-performance groove. That's just truth.

Enough to stay proficient at a decent performance level and even shall we say, "safe"... but not like a Sean Tucker who's out virtually every day practicing.

That's my realistic view of recreational flying.

The folks who do it for a living and get much more time in, can do much better than the average Joe Blow like myself.

I don't try to settle for average but a week between flights and sometimes two, will mean that a "perfect" flight is not the norm and there will always be something to critique.

It's one of the reasons I'd eventually like to get involved with tow plane operations with CAP here locally. I'd like to see how spending 8 hours a day in a 182 towing gliders affects my airmanship. Plus I really enjoyed soaring and I need to re-add that to my air time.

Need to finish the Instrument up first, then I'm off to finish that Glider add-on and probably the Commercial even though I have no plans to fly for hire.

Just doing it for the overall experience and well-roundedness.

Always keep learning...

Consider doing your Commercial in a glider (after you get your add-on). I don't know about DEN, but around here, there are plenty of opportunities to get some part time work giving glider rides and instruction (of course you'd need the CFI-G for that). You can tow gliders and be compensated with your PPL so you could still get your powered fix (this is a recent change, I'll dig and see if I can find the LOI).

 

[Jay Honeck]

For me, the moment came when I first landed at Oshkosh. So many pilots over the years had told me what a cluster-f*ck the Fisk approach was, and how "crazy" everything was there -- and I had just brought my wife and kids safely into the busiest airspace on the planet.

AND I pulled off a good landing in front of the world's toughest crowd -- 600,000 of your closest friends, many of them pilots themselves...

Since then, the feat has been repeated many times. Only much later did I realize how bone simple the Fisk approach really is, and how virtually anyone could do it...

 

[denverpilot]

Consider doing your Commercial in a glider (after you get your add-on). I don't know about DEN, but around here, there are plenty of opportunities to get some part time work giving glider rides and instruction (of course you'd need the CFI-G for that). You can tow gliders and be compensated with your PPL so you could still get your powered fix (this is a recent change, I'll dig and see if I can find the LOI).

Good thoughts. It's all time and money. Time and money.

Time I'm short of right now. Not so much that I don't have free time, but that every two weeks I'm on-call and today's bosses think everyone's sitting by a network connection, logged into the VPN, just waiting for the cell phone to ring.

It's almost taboo to say, "I just landed at the airport and I'm walking to the truck to get online. Let me push the airplane into the hangar." It's defintely taboo to let the call go to voice mail and call back 10 minutes later.

Worse, easily 90% of the calls weren't my system's problems to begin with. They're Linux boxes and I build stuff that would make the Maytag repairman more bored than he already is if given the proper resources. Uptime makes money. It also requires up-front money.

People in charge feel warm and fuzzy when they drag 10 people into a conference call. Always have.

The other night I couldn't sleep so I remotely loaded all the software on a server that they needed up and running badly the next day (due to **** poor planning) and sent a note that I'd be into the office at 10. Cell phone's on the mightstand next to my head so call if you need anything. Good night!

Today was that morning. The cell started ringing and three conference calls were booked before I could pick up the truck keys and drive 4 miles to the office. I just sent a note I was stuck on a call and I'd be in when I could. Never left the house until dinner time. Ha.

Just hard to schedule things like flying around it. I'd probably go nuts with a true 8-5 job.

 

[GCA319]

Good thoughts. It's all time and money. Time and money.

Time I'm short of right now. Not so much that I don't have free time, but that every two weeks I'm on-call and today's bosses think everyone's sitting by a network connection, logged into the VPN, just waiting for the cell phone to ring.

It's almost taboo to say, "I just landed at the airport and I'm walking to the truck to get online. Let me push the airplane into the hangar." It's defintely taboo to let the call go to voice mail and call back 10 minutes later.

Worse, easily 90% of the calls weren't my system's problems to begin with. They're Linux boxes and I build stuff that would make the Maytag repairman more bored than he already is if given the proper resources. Uptime makes money. It also requires up-front money.

People in charge feel warm and fuzzy when they drag 10 people into a conference call. Always have.

The other night I couldn't sleep so I remotely loaded all the software on a server that they needed up and running badly the next day (due to **** poor planning) and sent a note that I'd be into the office at 10. Cell phone's on the mightstand next to my head so call if you need anything. Good night!

Today was that morning. The cell started ringing and three conference calls were booked before I could pick up the truck keys and drive 4 miles to the office. I just sent a note I was stuck on a call and I'd be in when I could. Never left the house until dinner time. Ha.

Just hard to schedule things like flying around it. I'd probably go nuts with a true 8-5 job.

Time and money are what make an airplane fly. Forget all that aerdynamics stuff.