NOW I'm a pilot

Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
3,171
Location
Central Oregon/Hawaii
Display Name
Threefingeredjack
Home Airfield
KBDN/PHOG
I'm sure we all have had that moment. You are walking away from your aircraft mentally reviewing your flight when it hits you: That was really difficult, but I pulled it off without much drama......HEY!!! I'm finally good!!! Mastering this crazy game is, of course, an elusive goal that few can honestly say they have attained. But anyone who has flown enough can look back on their experience and find their rite of passage. Anyone care to share?
 
Never get there. Kinda...

Have had a few flights where I was pleased with my performance considering where I came from prior -- but I keep that thought in check with, "I'm no Bob Hoover."

I just keep trying to make something better each flight. Sometimes something else atrophies while I focus on a trouble area.

With most recreational pilots who are darn serious about getting time in the air -- averaging roughly 4 flights a month (a flight a weekend), in a good month -- we're not flying enough to get into a super high-performance groove. That's just truth.

Enough to stay proficient at a decent performance level and even shall we say, "safe"... but not like a Sean Tucker who's out virtually every day practicing.

That's my realistic view of recreational flying.

The folks who do it for a living and get much more time in, can do much better than the average Joe Blow like myself.

I don't try to settle for average but a week between flights and sometimes two, will mean that a "perfect" flight is not the norm and there will always be something to critique.

It's one of the reasons I'd eventually like to get involved with tow plane operations with CAP here locally. I'd like to see how spending 8 hours a day in a 182 towing gliders affects my airmanship. Plus I really enjoyed soaring and I need to re-add that to my air time.

Need to finish the Instrument up first, then I'm off to finish that Glider add-on and probably the Commercial even though I have no plans to fly for hire.

Just doing it for the overall experience and well-roundedness.

Always keep learning...
 
I was pretty proud of myself after I landed the 210 during my evening of excitement. That was the most intense thing I have ever had happen to me. I've been thinking about it alot lately, it has been bugging me. Lots of people told me they would have geared it up, which makes me feel good about getting it back on the ground in one piece.
 
I was pretty proud of myself after I landed the 210 during my evening of excitement. That was the most intense thing I have ever had happen to me. I've been thinking about it alot lately, it has been bugging me. Lots of people told me they would have geared it up, which makes me feel good about getting it back on the ground in one piece.

It doesn't matter what you do in life -- lots of people will tell you that you should have done something else. Don't worry about it, else you'll run yourself crazy.
 
I was pretty proud of myself after I landed the 210 during my evening of excitement. That was the most intense thing I have ever had happen to me. I've been thinking about it alot lately, it has been bugging me. Lots of people told me they would have geared it up, which makes me feel good about getting it back on the ground in one piece.

Exactly the kind of example I was fishing for. Second guessing yourself is normal, and shows you care about performance.
 
So, what kind of tool starts a thread like this without an example of his own??? The kind who is thinking one thing and typing another. :dunno:


I first had that feeling one rainy night in the Gulf of Mexico, while operating on a SAR case with a 210ft cutter. Landing on a moving target is all about timing, as the deck is moving up and down as well as rolling back and forth. The trick is for the LSO, who is directing you, to time the ship's movement so you catch the slight hesitation in the roll at the peak of an upward heave. Then you are supposed to smoothly ease collective and drop, (softly preferably), on deck. While you always operate into the wind, if there is a strong wind blowing you deal with the turbulence the ship's superstructure leaves in its wake. On this night we were returning for fuel and to close out for the day. The sea was choppy and giving the deck short, sharp movement. Night is always taxing, but this one was a bit of a *****. But, we smoothly dropped into the station astern and everything went like clockwork, I watched the LSO and moved like a puppet to his signals, and we slipped on deck with no fuss. Once secured and shut down the AC simply said "Nice" I reailzed I hadn't been thinking what to do, but making the helo do what I thought about doing. That is what being a pilot means to me, to think about what you want the craft to do, and it does it as an extension of your will.
 
So, what kind of tool starts a thread like this without an example of his own??? The kind who is thinking one thing and typing another. :dunno:


I first had that feeling one rainy night in the Gulf of Mexico, while operating on a SAR case with a 210ft cutter. Landing on a moving target is all about timing, as the deck is moving up and down as well as rolling back and forth. The trick is for the LSO, who is directing you, to time the ship's movement so you catch the slight hesitation in the roll at the peak of an upward heave. Then you are supposed to smoothly ease collective and drop, (softly preferably), on deck. While you always operate into the wind, if there is a strong wind blowing you deal with the turbulence the ship's superstructure leaves in its wake. On this night we were returning for fuel and to close out for the day. The sea was choppy and giving the deck short, sharp movement. Night is always taxing, but this one was a bit of a *****. But, we smoothly dropped into the station astern and everything went like clockwork, I watched the LSO and moved like a puppet to his signals, and we slipped on deck with no fuss. Once secured and shut down the AC simply said "Nice" I reailzed I hadn't been thinking what to do, but making the helo do what I thought about doing. That is what being a pilot means to me, to think about what you want the craft to do, and it does it as an extension of your will.

Last weekend I dropped into a 25' wide strip in my 172 with a 50-degree cross at 15G20, and I had a genuine graybeard aviator in the right seat with me. It wasn't until I was turning around to backtaxi and he said "Well done" that I realized that I had pulled off a very respectable landing without even thinking about what I was doing - I just did it. That felt pretty damn good.

To be fair, my home strip is 30' wide and I nearly always have some cross, but it's still fun to reach that point where you can just DO something without having to think about how you are going to do it.
 
Just little moments, so far. Nothing big. Yesterday was one (realizing I am not THAT BAD for a low time pilot). The long XC was another (realizing I could take us somewhere, on a vacation, and deal with weather and ATC and other stuff and make good decisions).
 
So, what kind of tool starts a thread like this without an example of his own??? The kind who is thinking one thing and typing another. :dunno:


I first had that feeling one rainy night in the Gulf of Mexico, while operating on a SAR case with a 210ft cutter. Landing on a moving target is all about timing, as the deck is moving up and down as well as rolling back and forth. The trick is for the LSO, who is directing you, to time the ship's movement so you catch the slight hesitation in the roll at the peak of an upward heave. Then you are supposed to smoothly ease collective and drop, (softly preferably), on deck. While you always operate into the wind, if there is a strong wind blowing you deal with the turbulence the ship's superstructure leaves in its wake. On this night we were returning for fuel and to close out for the day. The sea was choppy and giving the deck short, sharp movement. Night is always taxing, but this one was a bit of a *****. But, we smoothly dropped into the station astern and everything went like clockwork, I watched the LSO and moved like a puppet to his signals, and we slipped on deck with no fuss. Once secured and shut down the AC simply said "Nice" I reailzed I hadn't been thinking what to do, but making the helo do what I thought about doing. That is what being a pilot means to me, to think about what you want the craft to do, and it does it as an extension of your will.

Nice example, and a good explanation of being OWTA (One With The Airplane). Steven Coonts described something similar in The Cannibal Queen (reminds me to bring the book to WINGS for Tracey to read) about how he "wore" the A-6 he flew.
 
I was pretty proud of myself after I landed the 210 during my evening of excitement. That was the most intense thing I have ever had happen to me. I've been thinking about it alot lately, it has been bugging me. Lots of people told me they would have geared it up, which makes me feel good about getting it back on the ground in one piece.

Tell me if I did smart or stupid:

Taking off in a 310, 11,000 of runway! Just picked up the gear switch and lose the right engine. I caged it as quick as I could and brought it around for a landing.

Did I make the appropriate decision?
 
Tell me if I did smart or stupid:

Taking off in a 310, 11,000 of runway! Just picked up the gear switch and lose the right engine. I caged it as quick as I could and brought it around for a landing.

Did I make the appropriate decision?

IMHO once flying it is nearly always better to stay flying. That way you get a "normal" engine out landing instead of a hard braking emergency landing. I base this on these assumptions:

1.) You don't pick up the gear until all usable runway is expended and you have a positive rate.

2.) You weren't on fire.

3.) You had your Ray-Ban Aviators on and your silk scarf properly tossed over the right shoulder.

(NOTE: #3 is optional)
 
Tell me if I did smart or stupid:

Taking off in a 310, 11,000 of runway! Just picked up the gear switch and lose the right engine. I caged it as quick as I could and brought it around for a landing.

Did I make the appropriate decision?

My Hero!:rolleyes2:
 
Tell me if I did smart or stupid:

Taking off in a 310, 11,000 of runway! Just picked up the gear switch and lose the right engine. I caged it as quick as I could and brought it around for a landing.

Did I make the appropriate decision?

If straight ahead and putting it back down wasn't an option, then I'd have done the same thing. But I also don't pull the gear up until I'm to that point where having it down isn't going to matter. So on an 11,000 foot runway, I'm probably above TPA when the gear comes up. :D
 
WTF??? Was he with you??

I've discussed the event in the intervening years with many people including the smartest people in the field from the NTSB while waiting with a trailer to haul away wrecks. The odds were clearly not in my favor in a recip twin of the better outcome being in flying out. The odds of an injury had I chopped the other and settled her on in the 7000' remaining plus the safety gear off the end of 31 LGB at the time was neglible.

The decision I made was the incorrect one. Since I was solo it makes no difference since the only injury I risk is mine. Had I had passengers on board that decision would have been in breach of my duty to them as commander of the flight, and that is why it is called Pilot in Command. You are not tasked with making good choices in an emergency, you are tasked with making the best choices. We never learn to make best choices if we don't critically analyze the choices we do make and admit when we have made an error. Without that last ability, one is not fit to command a passenger carrying flight IMO.
 
If straight ahead and putting it back down wasn't an option, then I'd have done the same thing. But I also don't pull the gear up until I'm to that point where having it down isn't going to matter. So on an 11,000 foot runway, I'm probably above TPA when the gear comes up. :D

That is SE thinking and will kill you in a twin.
 
Tell me if I did smart or stupid:

Taking off in a 310, 11,000 of runway! Just picked up the gear switch and lose the right engine. I caged it as quick as I could and brought it around for a landing.

Did I make the appropriate decision?

Not enough information.

Depends on remaining runway, the winds, density altitude, aircraft weight, where you pulled the gear up, etc. Local terrain plays in as well. But in most cases, there would be plenty of remaining runway, and I'd have chopped both throttles and put it back down.

My habit was to figure this all out before I took off and have hard values in my head. That way I could react very quickly. I am *MUCH* faster at chopping two throttles then I am at cleaning up and feathering the correct engine.
 
Remember, recip twins don't have a V1 speed nor a required ability to climb OEI. It's not like losing one in a C130.

Good points. And without a view of the terrain, the "seat feel" of the moment, it is nearly impossible to second guess you. But the fact remains that there was no wrinkled tin. Instincts gained through experience often makes decisions for you that analysis in retrospect find faulty. Re: the 130. Unless at max gross and/or high and hot, (High and hot is something I NEVER was) losing just one on take-off is more a "gee whiz, look at that will you?" moment.
 
Good points. And without a view of the terrain, the "seat feel" of the moment, it is nearly impossible to second guess you. But the fact remains that there was no wrinkled tin. Instincts gained through experience often makes decisions for you that analysis in retrospect find faulty. Re: the 130. Unless at max gross and/or high and hot, (High and hot is something I NEVER was) losing just one on take-off is more a "gee whiz, look at that will you?" moment.


Right, but the fact that a good outcome was achieved does not mean it was the correct decision to be made nor does it serve well to use that result as a sample outcome for future choices. These are the thoughts that allow us to convert experience to wisdom.
 
That is SE thinking and will kill you in a twin.

Wait, what?

On an 11,000 foot runway it's going to be:
Rotate, blue line, positive rate, out of runway, gear up. Unless the examiner and DPE were lying to me for the past 3 days. If I were to lose an engine right after gear up, I am bringing it around, because I'm not bringing the gear up until I'm out of usable runway ahead of me. And I'm probably WAY high when that gear comes up on an 11,000 footer.
 
Last edited:
The owner asked why I didn't just chop and belly in.
You had already selected gear up right?

With one exception (B-25), I'm always above Blue Line when I grab the gear handle and once my hand touches the gear, I'm going.
 
Wait, what?

On an 11,000 foot runway it's going to be:
Rotate, blue line, positive rate, out of runway, gear up. Unless the examiner and DPE were lying to me for the past 3 days. If I were to lose an engine right after gear up, I am bringing it around, because I'm not bringing the gear up until I'm out of usable runway ahead of me. And I'm probably WAY high when that gear comes up on an 11,000 footer.


Never the way I was taught in a twin. Lesson one by a very competent instructor: Vr>positive rate>Gear Up>Accelerate for Blue line before you even leave G/E. You never have gear hanging when you are flying and you always want as much speed and altitude as fast as you can to buy you time to feather and keep it going under control.

If that is what you were truly taught I feel you were poorly served by your $1950 multi rating and I consider it a very poor value indeed. You have been taught to make poor decisions in a critical phase of flight.

I also have modified the TO procedure to go from gear switch to props and verify on the pull back. This not only saves time when you are right but also eliminates a common point of failure transferring knowledge from one handle set to another while under shock and stress. That's why I had a favorable outcome flying out the 310, I had 800 hrs in an even lower powered twin in the last year to think about it.
 
Last edited:
That is SE thinking and will kill you in a twin.
Why?

Not questioning you, I've never flown a twin. Sat right seat once with a friend while I had a roaring headache and couldn't care less about what he was telling me about flying a twin. Now, I wish I had paid attention.
 
Never the way I was taught in a twin. Lesson one by a very competent instructor: Vr>positive rate>Gear Up>Accelerate for Blue line before you even leave G/E. You never have gear hanging when you are flying and you always want as much speed and altitude as fast as you can to buy you time to feather and keep it going under control.

If that is what you were truly taught I feel you were poorly served by your $1950 multi rating and I consider it a very poor value indeed. You have been taught to make poor decisions in a critical phase of flight.

I also have modified the TO procedure to go from gear switch to props and verify on the pull back. This not only saves time when you are right but also eliminates a common point of failure transferring knowledge from one handle set to another while under shock and stress. That's why I had a favorable outcome flying out the 310, I had 800 hrs in an even lower powered twin in the last year to think about it.

Sooooooo, why would you give up usable runway instead of setting it back down? We are talking an 11,000 runway situation, not a 2,500' runway situation right?
 
You had already selected gear up right?

With one exception (B-25), I'm always above Blue Line when I grab the gear handle and once my hand touches the gear, I'm going.
My gear clunks, I feel up, I see up on VSI, the switch goes as I begin to say it, I set a trajectory that will meet Blue Line and gear up before I leave G/E. My hand goes to the throttles during this phase if I have briefed it's better to chop and take the end on at low speed, I have no fear of settling in on my belly, it's a non-event.

If I decide the circumstances dictate my better available option for survival is to fly out (I will always be well under gross, much more than the 10% Dr Bruce indicates if I do come to that decision). One of the reasons I like the 310 is that in my normal load configuration I have 40% of my useful load available for reserve performance (all the time accounting for the detrimental effect it has on roll control vs. Red Line in determining my Vr) and that's pretty nice to have when you're in the air pulling back handles.) I will move my hand to the props.

Anything before I leave GE with 2000'+ remaining in my 310 I will be better off chopping if I have a passenger load in my plane.
 
Last edited:
So wait, an engine fails on an 11,000 ft runway, the gear is up, and some how leaving it down until out of runway will kill you?

I pull the gear up when the decision is to go in case of a failure rather than land again. In a short field, it's almost immediately after off the ground. On a long field, I do wait a bit longer for exactly the scanrio Henning describes. I'd say Ed was trained fine in that regard.

But I do put hands on props as soon as I pull the gear up.
 
Sooooooo, why would you give up usable runway instead of setting it back down? We are talking an 11,000 runway situation, not a 2,500' runway situation right?


Where did I say the proper decision wasn't to set it down? The proper decision was to introduce the minimum control distractions and get the plane on the runway ASAP while operating under SOP. The correct action from a strictly safety point of view was to chop power and belly in handing over the plane to the insurance and getting another one. There is no need for gear unless you want to fly again this week, outside of that it's purely optional to a safe landing.
 
Where did I say the proper decision wasn't to set it down? The proper decision was to introduce the minimum control distractions and get the plane on the runway ASAP while operating under SOP. The correct action from a strictly safety point of view was to chop power and belly in handing over the plane to the insurance and getting another one. There is no need for gear unless you want to fly again this week, outside of that it's purely optional to a safe landing.

Had you not pulled the gear up so prematurely you wouldn't have even had to do that.

When the gear is down and an engine fails I'm chopping both and putting it down. If the gear is up I've already decided I'm flying it away and that's what I'm going to do. I just hope I'm having a good day.

Pulling the gear up after positive rate makes sense if you're flying a transport grade aircraft with lots and lots of excess power carrying lots of energy where putting it down isn't an option on any runway at that point.
 
Last edited:
So wait, an engine fails on an 11,000 ft runway, the gear is up, and some how leaving it down until out of runway will kill you?

I pull the gear up when the decision is to go in case of a failure rather than land again. In a short field, it's almost immediately after off the ground. On a long field, I do wait a bit longer for exactly the scanrio Henning describes. I'd say Ed was trained fine in that regard.

But I do put hands on props as soon as I pull the gear up.


No, what kills you is that you had committed to a poor thought process using considerations that don't apply to ME flying. While in this circumstance it leads to an acceptable conclusion, it does so for the wrong reason which if used in other circumstance will kill you.

ME isn't only about learning the physical differences in flying, it's also how we need to consider those differences and quirks in our operating process.

In an emergency situation where you are going fast looking at the end, your belly is where you want to be, that's a hell of a good brake that is relatively easy to fix if desired.
 
Last edited:
No, what kills you is that you had committed to a poor thought process using considerations that don't apply to ME flying. While in this circumstance it leads to an acceptable conclusion, it does so for the wrong reason which if used in other circumstance will kill you.

ME isn't only about learning the physical differences in flying, it's also how we need to consider those differences and quirks in our operating process.
When does your 310 owner's manual say to pull the gear up?
 
Had you not pulled the gear up so prematurely you wouldn't have even had to do that.

Which was my thought, and I don't see the difference between a twin and single in that regard. If you can still land it, gear stays down. I guess my whole thought process of "losing the engine right after gear up" is that I'm not pulling the gear up until I can't land straight ahead. Certainly not pulling it up with 9,000' still in front of me at 25' AGL.
 
The decision I made was the incorrect one. Since I was solo

I don't know but I think that you, being solo probably affords you enough OEI performance that going around on an 11,000 foot runway (no nearby trees to clear) is well within the capabilities of the airplane, provided it was not a 150hp apache or something.
 
Last edited:
When does your 310 owner's manual say to pull the gear up?

All the Twin Cessna series planes are taught positive rate on the completion of indications as I described. I had aural confirmation of the gear hitting the stop, I had kinestetic<sp?> sensation on vertical acceleration, I have electronic accelerometer information indicating in both positive vertical and forward speed rate of acceleration in growing magenta bars (this is the feature of the G-500 that I love having on TO in a twin.:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:). My doors are clean and have very little negative immediate impact for a quickly rising positive one.

In the end, I really don't much care what the manual says since it was edited by lawyers prior to publication. I do what I experiment with and find to work best. Typically this means I learn a procedure that will attain me best results across a wide range of variations at the best rate I can make odds for rather than a strict procedure. What I have found over the years though is that airspeed is your friend down low in a twin.
 
I don't know but I think that you, being solo probably affords you enough OEI performance that going around on an 11,000 foot runway (no nearby trees to clear) is well within the capabilities of the airplane, provided it was not a 150hp apache or something.

Heck with less than 70gallons, myself and the instructor and 60lbs of CG ballast in the back I was able to get 300fpm in the Apache this week on one engine. Right around std temp and pressure.
 
All the Twin Cessna series planes are taught positive rate on the completion of indications as I described. I had aural confirmation of the gear hitting the stop, I had kinestetic<sp?> sensation on vertical acceleration, I have electronic accelerometer information indicating in both positive vertical and forward speed rate of acceleration in growing magenta bars (this is the feature of the G-500 that I love having on TO in a twin.:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:). My doors are clean and have very little negative immediate impact for a quickly rising positive one.

In the end, I really don't much care what the manual says since it was edited by lawyers prior to publication. I do what I experiment with and find to work best. Typically this means I learn a procedure that will attain me best results across a wide range of variations at the best rate I can make odds for rather than a strict procedure. What I have found over the years though is that airspeed is your friend down low in a twin.
Back to my question -- what does the owners manual say? Look at the takeoff checklists.
 
I don't have it with me, it's in the plane in Atlanta in a hangar and I am in Ft Lauderdale too broke to fly anything at all; so simply put, I can't give you that information as I don't have it memorized of available as reference.

My point being though is you may want to consider when you look back at a decision with a good conclusion and on further analysis deem it a poor decision that you managed to luck through and not repeat on the wisdom gained by retrospect, that may be the point that really defines, "NOW I'm a pilot" in more aspects than being able to pull a save out of one's azz.
 
Back
Top