Now for a question my training didn't cover...

Ghery

Ghery

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Ghery Pettit
All my flying and training has been out of a towered field. Picking up an IFR clearance is rather straightforward. Call ground and get it. Tomorrow I'm leaving a non-towered field and SEA approach is tough to hit from the ground (needed a relay from a passing airliner to close the plan after we arrived last night). I'll file on DUATS, but to pick up my clearance do I just call SEA Radio and get it from them? I know I can talk to them from the ground on 122.6 (PUW is my originating airport tomorrow). This never came up and the AIM hints at this being the technique, but isn't totally clear.

I'll check with the FBO when I pay my fuel bill, but thought I'd ask here, too.

Thanks.
 
Ghery said:
All my flying and training has been out of a towered field. Picking up an IFR clearance is rather straightforward. Call ground and get it. Tomorrow I'm leaving a non-towered field and SEA approach is tough to hit from the ground (needed a relay from a passing airliner to close the plan after we arrived last night). I'll file on DUATS, but to pick up my clearance do I just call SEA Radio and get it from them? I know I can talk to them from the ground on 122.6 (PUW is my originating airport tomorrow). This never came up and the AIM hints at this being the technique, but isn't totally clear.

I'll check with the FBO when I pay my fuel bill, but thought I'd ask here, too.

Thanks.
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Good question. If there isn't a good GCO to talk to your local ATC, call a local tower ahead of time and get the phone number for Seattle clearance delivery, then save that in your cell phone. Also save this toll free number, which is nationwide clearance delivery: 1-888-766-8267
 
Thanks for the information. If all else fails, that number should do the trick.

Looks like the IR is just another license to learn. :D
 
If you are in VMC, it's probably better to depart the field VFR and pick up your IFR clearance in the air. Otherwise ATC will give you a void time clearance over the phone, meaning they'll keep the airspace protected for a certain amount of time, so you may have to rush to be off the ground by your void time.

If you don't make it off by the void time, make sure you call and tell them ASAP (regs say no later than 30 min), because they have to assume that you took off and lost comm or crashed or something, and you will be holding up other IFR traffic even more.
 
I have used the 800 number probably 75% of my IFR departures.

A few suggestions:

  • Have everything done and ready to go. I usually call the number when I'm sitting in the airplane with only engine start, runup, and taxi remaining. Some folks like to be running when they call, but you may have to wait for someone to answer or be placed on hold. I'm no fan of extensive engine ground ops.
  • Make sure you've checked the Departure Procedure for the airport and know how to fly it before you call.
  • Plan to fly to a fairly close intersection or VOR on departure. If you don't Clearance Delivery will likely add to your route (this seems regional-variable, though. I always get this near Pitt). Make sure you've looked at the chart before you call or at least have it opened to where you are so you can find the intersection or NAVAID.
  • Have CRAFT written down and learn your own shorthand. Look up local APP/DEP freqs and write them down ahead of time and circle the one they give you.
 
Be ready to copy the three times, 12 digits at the end of the clearance which you won't be used to copying:
-void if not off by (vinob)
-call by time (if you don't get off)
-time now
 
You got some good advice already and it covers what I do when I depart from untowered airports pretty well. I also ask locals if there are any special ways to contact ATC in the area. For instance in Chicago we have a local number to call Chi-App that can expedite you ability to get your clearance.
 
For Dallas / Fort Worth, local clearance delivery is 972-453-0181. I have that number, plus the toll-free national one listed above, in my cell phone under "Clearance Delivery", and call it using the Bluetooth connection to my LightSpeed headset from the cockpit when ready to go.
 
It would be nice to be able to get clearances SMS'd to you as well.
 
  1. My #1 preference is to call the ATC facility directly on the ground to receive the clearance and subsequent release.
  2. If that is not an option, I call FSS and ask for the number for the ATC facility (see above).
  3. If that doesn't work and weather permits, I depart VFR and pick up the clearance airborne.
  4. If I can't depart VFR, then I call Lockheed FSS for the IFR clearance.
I find it much easier to receive a clearance from ATC directly (cutting the middle man out) as I have had limited success and lots of confusion stemming from the use of the Lockheed FSS clearance number.
 
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Henning said:
It would be nice to be able to get clearances SMS'd to you as well.
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FltPlan.com and FlightAware.com will both send you an email showing the expected clearance as issued by ARTCC's computers... now, that could change at the last minute due to local operational requirements, but in my experience it's been pretty reliable and accurate.
 
Flying h4x0r said:
What's the number for Chi-App?
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1.847.289.0926

That is to the clearance desk at the TRACON in Elgin. When you call he will already have your strip and will give it to the controller for your sector and get a clearance for you. Only call them when you are ready to go. Also they much prefer if you can depart VFR and pick it up in the air.
 
PUW has no GCO or RCO on field, so that's out. There's an FSS RCO on 122.6 at the Pullman VOR 6 miles away, which may or may not work -- no real way to know until you get there or if someone who's tried it chip in with their experience.

The other choice is telephone. If you have a number for SEA ARTCC, you could use that, but Center numbers seem to be a lot harder to find than TRACON numbers. After that, the IFR clearance number above is probably best, followed by a direct number to Seattle FSS, with 800-WX-BRIEF being your last resort.

And as you mentioned, asking at the FBO is the best idea yet. They should know what works best at their airport.

While taking off VFR and picking up the clearance in the air is an option, a lot can go wrong with it. You could find that the weather doesn't allow a climb high enough to reach SEA Center, or that they have other traffic in the area and can't issue a clearance to you until the other plane clears the area. Unless you can go all the way to your destination VFR, I recommend against lauching VFR with the intention of picking up your clearance in the air.

BTW, I'm a little surprised you've never done this before. Most instrument instructors make at least one IFR departure from a nontowered airport so their trainees can experience it, and it's a question covered in most IR practical tests.
 
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Thanks, all. I'll check with the FBO when I pay my fuel bill. It's severe VMC all the way home, so filing and flying IFR is more for exercising the system than a "I have to do this to get home" deal today. One more thing to add to my learning experiences.

And, Ron, it would have been good to have done this while training. The one time we departed from a non-towered field I was able to talk to SEA center from the ground and we had just landed there, so they were expecting us to pick up our return clearance from them.

Off we go to commit another flagrant act of aviation... :D
 
Ghery said:
All my flying and training has been out of a towered field. Picking up an IFR clearance is rather straightforward. Call ground and get it. Tomorrow I'm leaving a non-towered field and SEA approach is tough to hit from the ground (needed a relay from a passing airliner to close the plan after we arrived last night). I'll file on DUATS, but to pick up my clearance do I just call SEA Radio and get it from them? I know I can talk to them from the ground on 122.6 (PUW is my originating airport tomorrow). This never came up and the AIM hints at this being the technique, but isn't totally clear.

I'll check with the FBO when I pay my fuel bill, but thought I'd ask here, too.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Your instructor never took you to Shelton? Chehalis? Thun Field? Lots of opportunities to get no-tower experience in the OLM area. Ya think that the fact that his military flying didn't take him into uncontrolled airports might have played a role?

Bob Gardner
 
Ron Levy said:
...SNIP...BTW, I'm a little surprised you've never done this before. Most instrument instructors make at least one IFR departure from a nontowered airport so their trainees can experience it, and it's a question covered in most IR practical tests.
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My instructors seemed to cover all the parts but I just didn't relate certain items by certain terms. One of the things that got me days before my private practical was a power on stall in a turn. Another was contacting Flight watch while listening on on the VOR. I could not remember ever doing either.
Since I was starting at a nontowered airport, I got the void time, call by, and time sync.
 
Ron Levy said:
While taking off VFR and picking up the clearance in the air is an option, a lot can go wrong with it. You could find that the weather doesn't allow a climb high enough to reach SEA Center, or that they have other traffic in the area and can't issue a clearance to you until the other plane clears the area. Unless you can go all the way to your destination VFR, I recommend against lauching VFR with the intention of picking up your clearance in the air.
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I almost always pick up my IFR clearance in the air from non-towered airports when the weather is sufficiently VMC and I've NEVER had a problem getting the clearance that way (haven't tried it out your way and IIRC this won't work in the stupid DC SFAR). My wx criteria is ceiling sufficient to reach 2000 AGL and vis of at least 5 nm in non-mountainous areas. Under those conditions I can always return to my departure point if there is a problem but I've never had to do that for lack of a clearance. If you're in the mountains there can be a lot more issues so each case needs to be examined closely for gotchas.
 
Ghery, I just got my IR a year ago, and I'm also absorbing "real world" IFR knowledge.

You may wish to subscribe to IFR Magazine. It has a lot of real world knowledge, some controvercial topics (i.e. flying track vs. heading), etc., but every article seems to challenge me. Others here disagree, but for this IFR newby, I really like it.

Fly safely!
 
Flying h4x0r said:
If you are in VMC, it's probably better to depart the field VFR and pick up your IFR clearance in the air. Otherwise ATC will give you a void time clearance over the phone, meaning they'll keep the airspace protected for a certain amount of time, so you may have to rush to be off the ground by your void time.

If you don't make it off by the void time, make sure you call and tell them ASAP (regs say no later than 30 min), because they have to assume that you took off and lost comm or crashed or something, and you will be holding up other IFR traffic even more.
Click to expand...

I don't recommend that technique everywhere. I've run into a couple of places where the controllers chewed a bit for picking up in the air. These days, in most cases I'll pick up the clearance on the ground. Especially true in more congested airspace under VFR but moderate ceiling conditions.

Having said that, it's also a technique that I've used successfully in a couple of places where there's an RCO but there would be a substantial delay for release due to inbound IFR. If they indicate a long release time, you can sometimes depart IFR and pick up the release in the air. You're responsible for VFR rules & visual separation until released. This works best when the RCO clearance controller is also the ATC sector controller.

ScottM said:
Also they much prefer if you can depart VFR and pick it up in the air.
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Good to know. There are places where the opposite is true. Sometimes Potomac will get testy for some of the uncontrolled fields when they're busy.

Ron Levy said:
And as you mentioned, asking at the FBO is the best idea yet. They should know what works best at their airport.
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Agree. For a long time (May still be true?) KFME had a RCO/phone patch to Potomac that was unpublished. It was posted in the FBO. With FME in the ADIZ/SFRA, this is exceedingly helpful vis cellphone.
While taking off VFR and picking up the clearance in the air is an option, a lot can go wrong with it. You could find that the weather doesn't allow a climb high enough to reach SEA Center, or that they have other traffic in the area and can't issue a clearance to you until the other plane clears the area. Unless you can go all the way to your destination VFR, I recommend against lauching VFR with the intention of picking up your clearance in the air.
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Agree. Though I don't adhere to the "VFR to destination" rule on longer trips, I make sure there's an "out" if they can't provide the clearance.
 
Good discussion. I think the answer is "DEPENDS". Out of Charleston I never have an issue picking up a clearance in the air. There are no mountains or other obstructions other then a few cell towers and the Class-C ATC isn't very busy. Go to other areas and ATC could be slammed and/or terrain a serious concern so the best thoughts are to pick it up on the ground. While it sometimes takes a few minutes; the general 800 clearance delivery number works fine; just be ready to go but don't rush and create a problem.
 
Baron2PG said:
Good discussion. I think the answer is "DEPENDS".
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I agree. Out here in the less populated part of the country I frequently depart VFR, even with terrain, if the weather is good. I am much more reluctant to do it when the weather is marginal, at night, or in places where I am not familiar with the airspace.
 
Well, I filled on-line. Checked at the FBO and they said that hitting SEA center from the end of the runway was iffy. VMC across the state, so I called center once I was airborne and headed towards the VOR about 5 miles from the airport. SEA center gave me a squawk, confirmed my location and I was cleared to 10,000 MSL. All went fine the rest of the way across the state. Great help, as usual, from ATC here in the Pacific Northwest. And, while it was legal VMC, the visibility was significantly degraded from all the smoke in the air. Still had 20 miles or so when I approached the Cascades, but it will be nice when those fires are out.
 
Someone must come up with a trick to getting an ifr clearance in the Phx area. You will get rebuffed both on the ground and airborne. "Wait, I pay taxes just like everybody else!"
 
It seems APP/DEP annoyance with airborne clearance pickups is also regional.

I once waited a loooooong time on the ground for the RCO at Shannon. It was VFR but very hazy (7 mile vis or so).

I just didn't want to traverse the DC area VFR.

In PIT airspace they seem to prefer you have your clearance, otherwise you get "Fly heading 270" when your destination is east.

:dunno:
 
bobmrg said:
Your instructor never took you to Shelton? Chehalis? Thun Field? Lots of opportunities to get no-tower experience in the OLM area. Ya think that the fact that his military flying didn't take him into uncontrolled airports might have played a role?

Bob Gardner
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Not during my IR training over the past too many years. Haven't been into Thun ever. Shelton and Chehalis many times. Just not IFR.

My previous CFII was military. The one I finished with is not, and even has a plane based at Shelton. Approaches I've flown are into OLM, HQM, TIW, HIO, BFI and CVO.

nddons said:
Ghery, I just got my IR a year ago, and I'm also absorbing "real world" IFR knowledge.

You may wish to subscribe to IFR Magazine. It has a lot of real world knowledge, some controvercial topics (i.e. flying track vs. heading), etc., but every article seems to challenge me. Others here disagree, but for this IFR newby, I really like it.

Fly safely!
Click to expand...

I'll have to consider that magazine now. I'd love to see their take on track vs. heading. I've had that discussion with a CFII when flying a GNS430 equipped 172. The Yelm 2 departure out of OLM has you turn to a heading of 060. Nail it on the DG and the CFII is pointing to the Trk number on the 430. Heading vs. track. The DP says heading. Must have been an interesting article.
 
Ghery said:
I'll have to consider that magazine now. I'd love to see their take on track vs. heading. I've had that discussion with a CFII when flying a GNS430 equipped 172. The Yelm 2 departure out of OLM has you turn to a heading of 060. Nail it on the DG and the CFII is pointing to the Trk number on the 430. Heading vs. track. The DP says heading. Must have been an interesting article.
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http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-42232.html
 
Ghery said:
Not during my IR training over the past too many years. Haven't been into Thun ever. Shelton and Chehalis many times. Just not IFR.

My previous CFII was military. The one I finished with is not, and even has a plane based at Shelton. Approaches I've flown are into OLM, HQM, TIW, HIO, BFI and CVO.



I'll have to consider that magazine now. I'd love to see their take on track vs. heading. I've had that discussion with a CFII when flying a GNS430 equipped 172. The Yelm 2 departure out of OLM has you turn to a heading of 060. Nail it on the DG and the CFII is pointing to the Trk number on the 430. Heading vs. track. The DP says heading. Must have been an interesting article.
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It's a moot point now that you have your ticket, but you don't have to land at an uncontrolled airport under IFR in order to get experience in picking up a clearance and departing from one. What if you landed at Shelton (for example) on a nice clear evening, stayed overnight at the Shelton Hilton, and woke the next morning to find a 200-foot ceiling and a mile's visibility? (Good luck finding the Hilton, BTW.)

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
It's a moot point now that you have your ticket, but you don't have to land at an uncontrolled airport under IFR in order to get experience in picking up a clearance and departing from one. What if you landed at Shelton (for example) on a nice clear evening, stayed overnight at the Shelton Hilton, and woke the next morning to find a 200-foot ceiling and a mile's visibility? (Good luck finding the Hilton, BTW.)
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Heck, any instrument instructor worth his/her salt can simulate the operation well enough for training purposes, anyway, although actually doing it at least once is a really good idea.
 
Ron Levy said:
Heck, any instrument instructor worth his/her salt can simulate the operation well enough for training purposes, anyway, although actually doing it at least once is a really good idea.
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It's very hard to simulate taking off in low-vis conditions solo. There's just something about launching into pure nothing that grabs the attention better than any simulation.

I did the foggles takeoff during training and on my checkride (even though it was no longer in the PTS).

I'm sure you agree, but very few students have the opportunity before being granted the license to learn.
 
My CFII made a pretty big deal out of getting clearances. We talked through all the combinations of towered/un-towered/ground/clearance delivery/FSS via RCO/FSS via VOR/FSS via Phone. And then went and flew a long XC and tried to cover each of the methods.

On top of all that there are the regional variations and ATC pet peeves that you get to learn through trial and error.

KCOS wants you to call clearance even when you're departing VFR, and they get pretty crabby if you don't. Also the ATIS said to call for clearance before starting engines. I don't turn on radios until after I start, so I blew that one.

Lastly, my first actual IFR flight in actual IMC was last week. I was leaving my homedrome and the only way to get a clearance is by phone. So I called FSS and they gave the number for approach, who gave me a clearance, but then told me to call back in 5 minutes for release. So I sat on the runway for about 2 minutes on the phone waiting for release.
 
dmccormack said:
It's very hard to simulate taking off in low-vis conditions solo. There's just something about launching into pure nothing that grabs the attention better than any simulation.
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I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about picking up clearances, not doing low-vis takeoffs solo. The former is easy to simulate, but the latter is virtually impossible to simulate outside a sim.
 
I have departed IFR from a non towered airport a couple of times using the procedures described (the first time I called FSS for the clearance and they gave me the number for clearance delivery.) But I have honestly never done it in training.

Regarding low vis departures, we get this particular type of fog called tule fog, and there are times when you really can, in fact, take off in the blind (vis reported 0/0). I've done it in both in training and afterwards. The fog is so thick that you can't even see the edges of the taxiways, just some of the center stripe. Once you're moving faster than 20 - 30 knots, you can't even see that. You just have to stay straight and fly your heading indicator while you are still on the ground.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I have departed IFR from a non towered airport a couple of times using the procedures described (the first time I called FSS for the clearance and they gave me the number for clearance delivery.) But I have honestly never done it in training.

Regarding low vis departures, we get this particular type of fog called tule fog, and there are times when you really can, in fact, take off in the blind (vis reported 0/0). I've done it in both in training and afterwards. The fog is so thick that you can't even see the edges of the taxiways, just some of the center stripe. Once you're moving faster than 20 - 30 knots, you can't even see that. You just have to stay straight and fly your heading indicator while you are still on the ground.
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And when something goes wrong and you need to return to the airport, how do you accomplish that? I know I can do a 0/0 takeoff Part 91, but there's a good reason the 121/135 crowd can't. I lived in Davis in the 1950s and I remember tule fogs. A good time to leave the plane tied down.
 
Ghery said:
And when something goes wrong and you need to return to the airport, how do you accomplish that? I know I can do a 0/0 takeoff Part 91, but there's a good reason the 121/135 crowd can't.
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We can't do 0/0 takeoffs but we can take off in conditions worse than we can land in (minimum 500 RVR takeoff, 1800 RVR landing). We just need a takeoff alternate.
 
Ghery said:
And when something goes wrong and you need to return to the airport, how do you accomplish that? I know I can do a 0/0 takeoff Part 91, but there's a good reason the 121/135 crowd can't. I lived in Davis in the 1950s and I remember tule fogs. A good time to leave the plane tied down.
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As Mari pointed out, 135/121 guys can still take off in conditions they can't land in. I watched my wife's Piedmont depart on Tuesday in OVC001 and 1/2 SM. Mins on the best approach (a brand new WAAS approach - I suppose now I need to rethink the WAAS upgrade) are 400-1. Nope, not getting back in.

I know there's a big deal made about making it back into the airport you took off from, but depending on your failure, it's not much of a factor. If you lose an engine on a single, you're probably not making it back unless you're within gliding distance and do some fancy work. If you have an alternator failure and catch it, then yes you want to get into the airport as quickly as possible. But I tend to look for a takeoff alternate, not restrict myself to getting back into the airport I departed from.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As Mari pointed out, 135/121 guys can still take off in conditions they can't land in. I watched my wife's Piedmont depart on Tuesday in OVC001 and 1/2 SM. Mins on the best approach (a brand new WAAS approach - I suppose now I need to rethink the WAAS upgrade) are 400-1. Nope, not getting back in.

I know there's a big deal made about making it back into the airport you took off from, but depending on your failure, it's not much of a factor. If you lose an engine on a single, you're probably not making it back unless you're within gliding distance and do some fancy work. If you have an alternator failure and catch it, then yes you want to get into the airport as quickly as possible. But I tend to look for a takeoff alternate, not restrict myself to getting back into the airport I departed from.
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Exactly.

The one time I had an alternator failure departing IMC, I really didn't care what the mins were (airport only had a single LOC approach). I used the handheld GPS to fly the full procedure then descended and broke out to see the lovely runway.

Oh, and the AWOS wasn't working, either.
 
Ghery said:
And when something goes wrong and you need to return to the airport, how do you accomplish that? I know I can do a 0/0 takeoff Part 91, but there's a good reason the 121/135 crowd can't. I lived in Davis in the 1950s and I remember tule fogs. A good time to leave the plane tied down.
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I don't disagree with you that it is a disconcerting condition, but you don't have to take off in 0/0 to be unable to return to the field, and as Ted pointed out 121/135 flights can still take off in conditions they can't land in. I think it is fine to have, as a personal minimum, landing minimums for a takeoff, but it it was never a criteria during my training. During my IFR training, many flights originated in non-landable conditions, and there were even a couple times where we had to camp out at another field to allow time for conditions to improve to straight in ILS minimums at my home field. And for that matter, we've shot quite a few ILS approaches to minimums in training knowing we would have to go missed.

I am mindful of that though, and if I take off in those conditions, I want to be certain there is a landable airport in the vicinity. In reality, at my home field, if something went South after departure, I wouldn't get vectored to back to the same airport anyway in IMC, I would be vectored to a nearby airport with a closer approach.
 
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