Northwest Airlines Pilots demise....

Everskyward said:
Not necessarily. Sometimes center controllers work a number of sectors and transmitters so you only hear the airplane side of the conversation.
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I think you've got that backwards. When a controller is using multiple transmitters on the same frequency, it's common to hear ATC talking to an airplane and not hear the responses. AFaIK controllers have the option of keying multiple transmitters at the same time or individually and it's when they use the multiple xmit function that you hear them and a weak or unreadable response. If the airplane is truly in a different sector I believe they'd likely be on a different frequency but you may still hear ATC if they're transmitting on multiple freqs.

The only time you might hear an airplane and not hear ATC would be when ATC is using a more distant transmitter on the same frequency and not keying all the transmitters so channeled. While this does happen, it's rare IME, at least below the flight levels.

However, somewhere along the way you would think some of those airplanes would have initiated a call with, "Winnipeg Center" which should have been a clue but I guess it wasn't.
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It would probably be easy to miss that clue if you weren't paying attention.
 
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gismo said:
The only time you might hear an airplane and not hear ATC would be when ATC is using a more distant transmitter on the same frequency and not keying all the transmitters so channeled. While this does happen, it's rare IME, at least below the flight levels.
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That's what I am talking about, and the NWA crew was definitely in the flight levels. Maybe it's the perception of pilots who fly below the flight levels most of the time is that this is rare, but it's definitely not rare in the flight levels.
 
Maybe this will make it easier for people to understand. Here is a list of transmitters and frequencies for Denver ARTCC. The Cheyenne and Medicine Bow high altitude transmitters have the same frequency, underlined in brown. The Cortez, Durango and Farmington low altitude transmitters have the same frequency, underlined in blue. The Ainsworth, Grand Island West, Ogallala and O'Neill transmitters have the same low altitude frequency highlighted in gray. I'm sure there are others too. ATC can selectively transmit through any of those transmitters based on which one is closest to the airplane they are talking to. If you were over North Platte listening to 132.7 and ATC was talking with another airplane over Grand Island using the Grand Island transmitter you might not be able to hear ATC whereas you stand a better chance of hearing the airplane based on the line of sight effect.

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I know what you're talking about Mari. I'm not sure why it's not sinking in.

Regardless, these guys have one priority -- the plane. Not their stupid schedules. Not their stupid seniority list. The plane, and the pax who are paying their salary.

What kind of bonehead amateur misses a call into the next frequency?? Report, and wait for acknowledgement. I don't care if Abraham Lincoln is coming back from the head, that's just basic stuff there. Blocking and tackling.
 
flyersfan31 said:
What kind of bonehead amateur misses a call into the next frequency?? Report, and wait for acknowledgement. I don't care if Abraham Lincoln is coming back from the head, that's just basic stuff there. Blocking and tackling.
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Careful there. It happens. BTDT. Also what happens is a plane will fly out of range of that particular sector and either the controller was late on the handoff or forgot. BTDT too.
 
I can tell you for sure than on more than one occasion, I've been switched to a new freq and been unable to get a word in edgewise, so I just sit and wait. And wait. And a turn comes up, so I make the turn, retune the VOR, start copying data on my log...

...until...

...five minutes later, I am startled to hear, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :blush:

The other one is I make the call, and nobody answers (probably on the landline), and I don't remember to call again. Once again, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :doh:
 
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Ron Levy said:
I can tell you for sure than on more than one occasion, I've been switched to a new freq and been unable to get a word in edgewise, so I just sit and wait. And wait. And a turn comes up, so I make the turn, retune the VOR, start copying data on my log...

...five minutes later, I am startled to hear, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :doh:
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On the GNS480 I use as my primary comm you have to push the "Com" button before you can change the frequency and at that point the display clearly indicates you're in the Comm mode. I've gotten in the habit of leaving it that way after making frequency change until I've checked in and gotten a reply. That way if I get distracted before checking in I will notice it pretty soon afterwards. It's not an infallible method but failures usually only occur when you check in without terminating Comm mode and then five minutes later can't remember that you did check in.
 
Ron Levy said:
I can tell you for sure than on more than one occasion, I've been switched to a new freq and been unable to get a word in edgewise, so I just sit and wait. And wait. And a turn comes up, so I make the turn, retune the VOR, start copying data on my log...

...until...

...five minutes later, I am startled to hear, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :blush:

The other one is I make the call, and nobody answers (probably on the landline), and I don't remember to call again. Once again, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :doh:
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+1...
 
Ron Levy said:
I can tell you for sure than on more than one occasion, I've been switched to a new freq and been unable to get a word in edgewise, so I just sit and wait. And wait. And a turn comes up, so I make the turn, retune the VOR, start copying data on my log...

...until...

...five minutes later, I am startled to hear, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :blush:

The other one is I make the call, and nobody answers (probably on the landline), and I don't remember to call again. Once again, "Tiger 22RL, Washington, are you up?" :doh:
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I've encountered both these scenarios myself. If you fly long enough, this stuff happens.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Careful there. It happens. BTDT. Also what happens is a plane will fly out of range of that particular sector and either the controller was late on the handoff or forgot. BTDT too.
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Oh, I know. I know you can kinda lose track too, like Ron's scenario. But don't you start wondering why you haven't heard anything? Although, I will accept that jet jocks on the J airways probably don't do much more than check on and check off, so I suppose you wouldn't necessarily expect to hear anything after the initial check on.

Still, doesn't matter to me. They were screwing around with a laptop when they should have been doing their job. That alone isn't grounds for dismissal - lots of people goof off a bit here and there. But these guys let it interfere with the operation of the aircraft. If people have the ATP, the fancy hat and the swanky jacket and want to be taken seriously, they should take their job seriously. Those who don't do a great disservice to all the ATPs who do take their job seriously.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Oh, I know. I know you can kinda lose track too, like Ron's scenario. But don't you start wondering why you haven't heard anything?
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Time can be a funny thing.

I was IFR and in IMC in Chi-App airspace once and there was initially normal radio traffic. I had just settled into initial cruise and was checking everything to make sure that it was all operating as I wanted it to. Radio traffic for me at this time would be minimal. I was on a 180 heading and would hold that along with my 3000 foot altitude assignment for the next 15 minutes or so and then I would be handed off to the next sector. I do this often enough that I know when and where this will happen. So I did not notice that radio traffic had died down to nothing.

At the appointed spot I did not get my handoff, I also realized that I had not heard anything and tried all approach, they did not respond. I checked the radio and then went to comm 2 where the frequency had become alive. I called approach again. They chewed me out for being off frequency. I told them I had a comm failure. There response was that I "traveled 50 miles out of comm". I laughed to myself as 50 miles would have put me in Centers airspace down by Peotone. I bit my tongue, apologized, and continued on.

I am just saying that not hearing anything did not ring any alarms for me. It was when I knew I should have been handed off. These NW guys should have had enough situation awareness to realize that they were not being handed off nor being set up for an approach. So not only were they not listening to the radio they were not flying the plane either.
 
smigaldi said:
I am just saying that not hearing anything did not ring any alarms for me. It was when I knew I should have been handed off. These NW guys should have had enough situation awareness to realize that they were not being handed off nor being set up for an approach. So not only were they not listening to the radio they were not flying the plane either.
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Your alarm rang because you were aware of your position, the NWA pilots were not.
 
I have often experienced the situation (described above) when I can hear the aircraft on frequency and not hear (or barely hear) the Center controller; certainly the case when speaking with Houston Center and ABQ Center out in west Texas. If they transmit on multiple transmitters, same frequency, the signal would be subject to significant squeal.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Still, doesn't matter to me. They were screwing around with a laptop when they should have been doing their job. That alone isn't grounds for dismissal - lots of people goof off a bit here and there. But these guys let it interfere with the operation of the aircraft. If people have the ATP, the fancy hat and the swanky jacket and want to be taken seriously, they should take their job seriously. Those who don't do a great disservice to all the ATPs who do take their job seriously.
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I agree that these guys screwed up big time. They let a series of small mistakes form a chain leading to a high profile incident and they deserve to be punished appropriately. The punishment should have been determined by their intentions and results of their actions, not public knee-jerk reactions and government butt covering. They never intended to lose situational awareness or violate any regs. They didn't even intentionaly violate company policy by turning on laptops since NWA OPSPECS don't specifically prohibits electronic devices on the flight deck. The results of that that cident were: ATC initiated their NORDO aircraft security protocols. This live test of those protocols pointed out significant flaws in that system. ATC did a good job of separation. At no time did they come close to another aircraft. The aircraft landed safely at it's intended destination. It landed with enough fuel to fly for at least two more hours. The passengers were unaware of anything amiss until arriving at the gate. The passengers arrived 15 minutes after scheduled arrival. No injuries. No damage to the aircraft. No near collisions.

These pilots apparently took their job seriously for several decades without any problems. Revoking their certificates for this one incident is not justified. Hammering them in this way when there are people still flying around that have done worse sets a bad precident. Allowing public outcry to determine punishment without regard to actual results and precident is what happened here.
 
maddog52 said:
I agree that these guys screwed up big time. They let a series of small mistakes form a chain leading to a high profile incident and they deserve to be punished appropriately. The punishment should have been determined by their intentions and results of their actions, not public knee-jerk reactions and government butt covering. They never intended to lose situational awareness or violate any regs. They didn't even intentionaly violate company policy by turning on laptops since NWA OPSPECS don't specifically prohibits electronic devices on the flight deck. The results of that that cident were: ATC initiated their NORDO aircraft security protocols. This live test of those protocols pointed out significant flaws in that system. ATC did a good job of separation. At no time did they come close to another aircraft. The aircraft landed safely at it's intended destination. It landed with enough fuel to fly for at least two more hours. The passengers were unaware of anything amiss until arriving at the gate. The passengers arrived 15 minutes after scheduled arrival. No injuries. No damage to the aircraft. No near collisions.

These pilots apparently took their job seriously for several decades without any problems. Revoking their certificates for this one incident is not justified. Hammering them in this way when there are people still flying around that have done worse sets a bad precident. Allowing public outcry to determine punishment without regard to actual results and precident is what happened here.
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Excellent! :yesnod:
 
Any difference with a navy capt relieved of command for running aground? High standards promote high performance.
 
maddog52 said:
. Allowing public outcry to determine punishment without regard to actual results and precident is what happened here.
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I agree with this. But even if the incident never made the press, I still support the revocation.

If my surgeon was trading stocks or doing something else while he was supposed to be operating on me and responsible for my well-being, even if I came to no harm due to his inattentiveness, I'd still expect his license to practice to be revoked.

If I was that inattentive while I was supposed to be monitoring something in my profession, I'd expect to be fired too.
 
SCCutler said:
I have often experienced the situation (described above) when I can hear the aircraft on frequency and not hear (or barely hear) the Center controller; certainly the case when speaking with Houston Center and ABQ Center out in west Texas. If they transmit on multiple transmitters, same frequency, the signal would be subject to significant squeal.
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If you were in west Texas and the aircraft you could hear on frequency were all addressing ATC as "Kansas City Center", would you think something amiss?
 
flyersfan31 said:
Any difference with a navy capt relieved of command for running aground? High standards promote high performance.
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I wouldn't call this the equivalent of running aground. It's more like the equivalent of a Navy ship getting temporarily misplaced at sea. Here is a case where a Navy captain ran into a civilian ship and killed some people due to some negligence on his part. He was relieved of his command but was not given a dishonorable discharge.

NTSB report said:
Disciplinary Actions. Based on the findings and recommendations of the court of inquiry, the Greeneville's CO was taken to Admiral's Mast,35 where he was found guilty of committing two violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice: dereliction of duty and negligent hazarding of a vessel. He was "detached for cause" from his position as CO, which was documented in his Navy officer record. He submitted a request to retire, which was approved, and he retired effective October 1, 2001.
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I don't think that anyone is saying that the crew didn't screw up and that they should not be punished, but the punishment seems out of scale to the crime and, like others have said, driven by public opinion. Are the skies any safer now that these guys got an emergency revocation? Wouldn't it have been better to let due process take its course?
 
Everskyward said:
I wouldn't call this the equivalent of running aground. It's more like the equivalent of a Navy ship getting temporarily misplaced at sea. Here is a case where a Navy captain ran into a civilian ship and killed some people due to some negligence on his part. He was relieved of his command but was not given a dishonorable discharge.

I don't think that anyone is saying that the crew didn't screw up and that they should not be punished, but the punishment seems out of scale to the crime and, like others have said, driven by public opinion. Are the skies any safer now that these guys got an emergency revocation? Wouldn't it have been better to let due process take its course?
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Exactly.
 
Everskyward said:
You might be out of range of the transmitter the controller is using to control the other aircraft but not out of range of the controller. I have frequently heard the aircraft clearly while ATC is garbled. However when they they are talking to us the transmission is clear because they are using a transmitter located closer to us. Some people worry about ATC getting garbled because they think they are flying out of range but when they query ATC, ATC tells them they were using another transmitter site.
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Mari is correct. I have had both happen to me, especially around Lake Erie and upstate New York. There are several areas I frequently fly where ATC will get faded out for a bit with other aircrafts coming in clear. Wait a few minutes, it gets better. The first couple times it caught me off guard, now I just keep an eye on it and listen, usually ATC comes back on clear. If not, then I know to call and ask them about it. If I hear nothing for 5 or 10 minutes, I usually check in to make sure they're still there.

I've also had cases where I've heard other aircraft that I thought were talking to the same ATC (can't hear ATC). I think it was around Elmira, NY. The controller told me that they frequently get transmissions from Albany area, apparently the frequencies there are similar. Point is, it does happen. Saying "that's not true" is incorrect.

Missing frequency changes does happen, as does forgetting to check in. It happens when you have a lot going on at once, and focus on flying the plane first (after all, that's most important). Especially if a lot of chatter is coming in. What I started doing is I'll write down the frequency and name of center/approach/whatever when it's given to me, change to it, and then put a check mark next to it when I've checked in. The paper usually remembers better than I do. This is especially handy if I forget who I'm talking to, which is pretty easy to do on a long flight with a lot of different centers, especially in unfamiliar areas. Remember, every area has little things that make it different.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Wow, you were consulted by the FAA as to the action to be taken?:rolleyes:
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I don't believe he said anything of the sort.

Jeez, sorry if we disagree with you. Hail Caesar!:rolleyes:
 
maddog52 said:
Allowing public outcry to determine punishment without regard to actual results and precident is what happened here.
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Do we know that this is the case here? I think it's quite possible that the FAA decided to issue the emergency revocation once they had the "facts" and public opinion may not have made much if any difference.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Wow, you were consulted by the FAA as to the action to be taken?:rolleyes:
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Yes, I was... it's time for the truth to come out. All the conspiracy theories are true - there IS a secret cabal running the government, and I'm one of the ruling council of the twelve. Just stay where you are, and the black helicopters will be there shortly.
 
What is disturbing here, is that the usual path is for all parties to make their comments, and THEN the administrator makes his. The current administrator broke that rule.

He may have cause- but we'll never know. He may have reacted like the rest of us who have done long transport- "they were asleep!" but thought they lied. That would be reason under the "good moral character" provision of FAR 61 r.e ATPs.

But we'll never know.
 
Everskyward said:
That's what I am talking about, and the NWA crew was definitely in the flight levels. Maybe it's the perception of pilots who fly below the flight levels most of the time is that this is rare, but it's definitely not rare in the flight levels.
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That would explain it...

Everskyward said:
Maybe this will make it easier for people to understand. Here is a list of transmitters and frequencies for Denver ARTCC. The Cheyenne and Medicine Bow high altitude transmitters have the same frequency, underlined in brown. The Cortez, Durango and Farmington low altitude transmitters have the same frequency, underlined in blue. The Ainsworth, Grand Island West, Ogallala and O'Neill transmitters have the same low altitude frequency highlighted in gray. I'm sure there are others too. ATC can selectively transmit through any of those transmitters based on which one is closest to the airplane they are talking to. If you were over North Platte listening to 132.7 and ATC was talking with another airplane over Grand Island using the Grand Island transmitter you might not be able to hear ATC whereas you stand a better chance of hearing the airplane based on the line of sight effect.
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Cool. Thanks! Now the question is, why wouldn't they just go ahead and transmit on all of the transmitters for the sector at the same time? How does that work? Time for a Center tour! :yes:

flyersfan31 said:
I know what you're talking about Mari. I'm not sure why it's not sinking in.
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Because it's being confused with something that happens a lot more often. I have *never* heard only the airplane side of the conversation, whereas I *commonly* hear only the ATC side. Whether it's flying in Center airspace at night, or the same guy working Clearance and Ground or Approach East and Approach West at the home 'drome, that happens all the time. (One night I actually departed KMKE after midnight and had the same guy for clearance, ground, tower, and departure - With only one freq change, he was watching me the whole time and gave both taxi and takeoff clearance on the delivery freq!)
 
TMetzinger said:
Yes, I was... it's time for the truth to come out. All the conspiracy theories are true - there IS a secret cabal running the government, and I'm one of the ruling council of the twelve. Just stay where you are, and the black helicopters will be there shortly.
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Kewl, I like helicopters.....:rofl:
 
TMetzinger said:
Yes, I was... it's time for the truth to come out. All the conspiracy theories are true - there IS a secret cabal running the government, and I'm one of the ruling council of the twelve. Just stay where you are, and the black helicopters will be there shortly.
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Should I change hats? Am I properly dressed?
 
roncachamp said:
If you were in west Texas and the aircraft you could hear on frequency were all addressing ATC as "Kansas City Center", would you think something amiss?
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I surely would, but I was not referencing that circumstance; I was referring to very large area sectors with multiple transmitter sites for the same controller.

flyingcheesehead said:
Because it's being confused with something that happens a lot more often. I have *never* heard only the airplane side of the conversation, whereas I *commonly* hear only the ATC side. Whether it's flying in Center airspace at night, or the same guy working Clearance and Ground or Approach East and Approach West at the home 'drome, that happens all the time. (One night I actually departed KMKE after midnight and had the same guy for clearance, ground, tower, and departure - With only one freq change, he was watching me the whole time and gave both taxi and takeoff clearance on the delivery freq!)
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I've had that as well (Austin late in the night comes to mind...), but perhaps the reason you have not encountered the "same-controller, multiple transmitter sites" situation described above is that you have tended to fly in busier airspace in which the workload would simply not allow a single controller to handle so large an area that they'd need multiple frequencies. It does happen with Houston Center (which, inexplicably, is responsible for much of west Texas, and with Albuquerque Center.

(as I mention above)

Greg Bockelman said:
Kinda sorta like most, if not all, of this thread.
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Yep.
 
Ron Levy said:
Pure speculation by an outsider apparently without any access to the investigation -- hardly "the inside story."
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From the article...

This scenario is based on a secondhand account written by a pilot who happens to be a friend of Flight 188's captain. The pilot's letter has been cited in news articles and blogs. I've paraphrased here and there, and rounded things out for clarity. I cannot know for certain if the details are accurate, but certainly they take what was, on the surface, a startling and borderline implausible story, and make it plausible.
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Now, I agree that it's not exactly sworn testimony, but it may not "pure speculation" either.

It's the closest I've seen to anything that may explain how this was even remotely possible..and is maybe just a little tiny bit more accurate than the wild *** guesses that I've seen everywhere else...including this thread.
 
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