No ADSB, No flying into a Class "D"?

Shepherd

Shepherd

Final Approach
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Shepherd
Yesterday, I flew the Cub into a Class "D" airport (again). Other than "Hi Glenn" from one of the controllers nothing but normal Class "D" chatter going in and going out.
After flying back home, the resident old guys were holding court, and I was asked where I had been and I old them.

IMMEDIATELY, one of the CFIs started jumping up and down saying that you can't take a non-electrical plane into a Class "D" airport without prior permission. Another CFI called BS on that and said that non-electrical planes were exempted, and could also fly under the Class "C" veil, which started another argument. Seriously, I thought to of the guys were going to start throwing punches it got so heated. I wandered in and grabbed the FAR\AIM, which only made the matter worse.
A search of the interweb is even more confusing.

So, before Western Civilization crumbles under the onslaught of this discussion, Arenon-electrical equipped planes exempt from the ADSB rule?
 
Planes provided by the factory without electrical systems are exempt as I understand it, but I can't strip the electrics out of a Supercub and call it exempt. As I understand it, anyway.

Since when is ADS-B required in Class D?

Your answers are here. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
 
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A quick search shows class A,B,C and some class E require ADSB.
(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—
 
Stewartb said:
Planes provided by the factory without electrical systems are exempt as I understand it, but I can't strip the electrics out of a Supercub and call it exempt. As I understand it, anyway.
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Do you have ADSB in the Cub? Is it required at your home field? Not required here in Juneau.
 
No electrical system in the Cub.
Sometimes, not often, I don't even have a handheld radio.
 
AKBill said:
Do you have ADSB in the Cub? Is it required at your home field? Not required here in Juneau.
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I do have it in the Cub. The only place I might need it in south central AK is Anch International. No requirement a quarter mile east at Lake Hood. I don't expect I'll keep it installed in the Cub given the reg that if equipped it MUST be used. Where I go is nobody's business.
 
I think part of the problem is that
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225 and Title 14 don't specifically state the rule for aircraft that were produced with no electrical system and Class "D".
One guy is arguing the if it isn't mentioned it isn't allowed, the other is arguing if it isn't forbidden it's allowed.
I called my friend who works in the tower and his response was "We aren't the ADSB Police." Which shouldn't surprise me, but it did.

Meanwhile if I fly the Cub from the front seat, can I claim PIC?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
 
Shepherd said:
Meanwhile if I fly the Cub from the front seat, can I claim PIC?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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More to the point, you could crawl back on the fuselage, pull the cables for elevator and rudder from there, and log PIC. :D
 
You can provide the information in chapter and verse to a pilot but you can't make him understand it. Sigh.
 
A transponder isn't required in class D either, but it doesn't stop the controller from asking me to ident every time on initial call up... "Negative transponder."
 
EdFred said:
And then wrongly interpret what they read.

Logging PIC anyone?
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Man yeah don’t open the SIC as PIC time debate. I thought someone was going to shoot me when I said I logged PIC time while flying SIC for my MEI rating.
 
Shepherd said:
I thought to of the guys were going to start throwing punches it got so heated. I wandered in and grabbed the FAR\AIM, which only made the matter worse.
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Hopefully, you just used the FAR-AIM to smack them all upside the head and end the debate. I argue for a living and for fun and even I don't have any patience for arguments over something this simple between people who really should know better. (Same story on logging PIC, not wearing a parachute when receiving spin training, and a dozen other non-debatable subjects in flying. Let's get into something with real gray area, like landing on a taxiway at a non-towered airport or flying part 91 into really cold clouds with a non-FIKI plane.)

So far, I haven't personally run into any exceptions to this explanation of the ADS-B rule: Did you legally need a mode C transponder to fly there on 12/31/2019? If yes, then you need ADS-B now. If no, then you don't.
 
There's a procedure for those otherwise required to have ADSB to fly in airspace requiring it...

See here: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/adapt/

It actually appears to work. I had a house guest staying with me over the January 1 cutover and he filed one to get home. My runway is under the CLT class B outermost tier.
 
Shepherd said:
IMMEDIATELY, one of the CFIs started jumping up and down saying that you can't take a non-electrical plane into a Class "D" airport without prior permission. Another CFI called BS on that and said that non-electrical planes were exempted, and could also fly under the Class "C" veil, which started another argument. Seriously, I thought to of the guys were going to start throwing punches it got so heated. I wandered in and grabbed the FAR\AIM, which only made the matter worse.
A search of the interweb is even more confusing.
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Exempted from what? The best part of this story is that they're both wrong. :rolleyes:
 
the DPE out here in my Class D has no transponder and no ADSB...
 
There's two topics going. Non electric exempts the plane from ADS-B. No radio into Class D would require permission, wouldn't it? Like a phone call that provides a time window for arrival? That's how it's done up here.
 
Stewartb said:
There's two topics going. Non electric exempts the plane from ADS-B. No radio into Class D would require permission, wouldn't it? Like a phone call that provides a time window for arrival? That's how it's done up here.
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based on the first post... he was talking to Tower and yes, 2 way comm is required in Class D
 
I stopped getting into hangar arguments when I had to fight with a pilot of 40+ years about whether it was legal for him to fly after one beer if he was under the limit..... even after I showed him the far..... “I know with my weight I can have one beer and be legal, I don’t care what anybody says”.
 
Stewartb said:
There's two topics going. Non electric exempts the plane from ADS-B. No radio into Class D would require permission, wouldn't it? Like a phone call that provides a time window for arrival? That's how it's done up here.
Click to expand...

Non electric isn't the same as NORDO. You can have a battery powered radio, handheld or installed, as long as the aircraft doesn't have an "engine driven electrical system" (i.e. alternator) it's exempt from transponder and ADS-B requirements in the mode C veil.
 
CFI jumping up and down saying it’s required should turn in his certificate.
 
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