Night landings

signu127

signu127

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Houma, LA
Display Name
Display name:
Sig-Nu
My CFI has me flaring a little higher at night and adding a small amount of power as I slowly descend to the runway. Is this a normal practice that everybody does at night? I can understand flaring higher when landing without the landing lights but with the lights I can see just fine. Honestly, I don't like it. I am doing as I am told but I would rather land like I always do during the day. So is this what everybody does at night or is it just for my training?

thanks
 
I'm still a student, but I flew the approach and landed just as I would in daytime.

I have a feeling your instructor is trying to manage a difference in depth perception, but I agree with your assessment that if the light is good, there's no reason to switch it up. I'll wait for more experienced pilots to offer their opinion.
 
If the light is good, I can't imagine any reason to do night landings any differently than day landings. I didn't when I flew the C150.

Occasionally, on calm days (or nights) and a long runway, I would not completely pull out the throttle and keep 1200 rpm for a s-m-o-o-o-o-t-h landing.
 
I've always been told that night landings are accomplished the same as day landings.
 
Concur with the responders above -- don't do anything different unless you want a different result.
 
Especially with the landing lights on, an artificially induced Haze Illusion often occurs and even runway edge lights can induce it or add to it, especially on dry dirt/sand/gravel airstrips that have been used recently and the narrower the runway, especially less than 50 feet wide, the more likely runway edge lights will induce Haze Illusion. The suspension of dust can last for many hours in no wind conditions and some wind may clear it or, just the right amount of wind will kick up enough to maintain the dust, particularly in the desert where all surrounding quadrants are constantly supplying light, desert-dry dust.

Not visible when doing a low, night over flight of these runways, the above phenomena can range from subtle through severe and, both Haze Illusion techniques and precautions are appropriate in any of these conditions, which will make the runway appear farther away than it actually is, due to the human eye focusing on infinity when in hazy conditions.

In a few new students, minimally experienced pilots, and non-night current pilots, I've also seen evidence of the landing light BEAM ITSELF causing haze illusion effects in perfectly CLEAR, recently rain-washed air with no vapor. Each and every landing should always be approached on a case by case basis, and I prefer to prepare and practice for the unexpected so it is less surprising when non-standard conditions appear in flight.
 
Last edited:
Did you tell your instructor you don't like it? Might be willing to work with you on it. I'd say don't change anything between the two if lighting is not an issue. Just learn to recognize some visual cues to help you nail it.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Especially with the landing lights on, an artificially induced Haze Illusion often occurs and even runway edge lights can induce it or add to it, especially on dry dirt/sand/gravel airstrips that have been used recently and the narrower the runway, especially less than 50 feet wide, the more likely runway edge lights will induce Haze Illusion. The suspension of dust can last for many hours in no wind conditions and some wind may clear it or, just the right amount of wind will kick up enough to maintain the dust, particularly in the desert where all surrounding quadrants are constantly supplying light, desert-dry dust.

Not visible when doing a low, night over flight of these runways, the above phenomena can range from subtle through severe and, both Haze Illusion techniques and precautions are appropriate in any of these conditions, which will make the runway appear farther away than it actually is, due to the human eye focusing on infinity when in hazy conditions.

In a few new students, minimally experienced pilots, and non-night current pilots, I've also seen evidence of the landing light BEAM ITSELF causing haze illusion effects in perfectly CLEAR, recently rain-washed air with no vapor. Each and every landing should always be approached on a case by case basis, and I prefer to prepare and practice for the unexpected so it is less surprising when non-standard conditions appear in flight.
Click to expand...

Note on in-flight night, pre-landing assessment:

Even though a precautionary over flight at pattern altitude reveals no dust haze, a cautious and properly executed low pass down the runway may do so. However, even if there was no fine dust haze on the first low pass, there may be some on subsequent low passes simply from the aircraft's slipstream kicking up a little dust, especially off bushes and trees with their large surface areas extending up into airspace, well covered with settled dust.

Haze illusion hazards can occur in completely sand free but vegetated areas as well -from pollen. It doesn't take much dust at all of any kind! Plus, an initial illusion-free night landing may be followed by subsiquent landings increasingly in the effects of haze illusion, dictating possible changes in flare for each landing.

Hot, desert dry nights will add a DA factor although even when cold, dry environments can still yield plenty of dirt dust or pollen, plus variable amounts of smoke from forest fires, camp fires, homes and other sources that can sometimes be a significant factor. In one extended case I observed substantial smoke haze from 4 separate forest fires surrounding my base airport for 6 weeks thick enough, so that at 3 PM in June, the air all around appeared sunset red, and the night hawk's were thrown off their biorythms to pursue their aerial feeding 6 hours early each day.
 
Last edited:
I can see how your instructor coud be a contibutor to confusion, epecially if you havent yet tken the PPL written yet. There is a question on the test about changes made during night landings. Hint: your instructor would get the wrong answer.

With that said, I wonder what airplane are you flying? I also wonder about your instructor's willingness to let you fly the plane in the daytime (or does he grab the controls).

When I asked my primary CFI 'when am I going to get to solo?', his response was on the order of 'when you show me that you're ready to be PIC'. You may consider having this discussion, but keep an open mind and remember that you are the student and there to learn as much from him as possible during your short time together (and it goes by fast).

Best to you
 
I agree that you should not do anything on short final different from a normal landing.

That said, being a little higher during the base leg and on final seems prudent, especially if there is no glideslope. For me the biggest worry at night in the pattern is colliding with terrain, which is very difficult to see, especially with a dim moon. Don't see how that would touch on issues of flare timing, though.
 
I have only recently starting doing night landings (only a few landings so far), but I don't do anything different from day landings. Like what was said above, if you want the same result as your day landings, do the same thing.
 
The effectiveness of runway and aircraft lighting determines my approach method. In a big airplane or most modern trikes, I don't make any adjustments because the visual cues are sufficient for the task.

In my taildragger with less-than-wonderful wing-mounted landing lights, I revert to the equivalent of a pitch-and-power glassy-water approach and reduce power when the wheel noise increases.
 
signu127 said:
My CFI has me flaring a little higher at night and adding a small amount of power as I slowly descend to the runway. Is this a normal practice that everybody does at night? I can understand flaring higher when landing without the landing lights but with the lights I can see just fine. Honestly, I don't like it. I am doing as I am told but I would rather land like I always do during the day. So is this what everybody does at night or is it just for my training?

thanks
Click to expand...
Do planes fly differently at night than they do during the day? If not why would they need to land differently?
 
Can you see everything you need to see as well at night?
ScottM said:
Do planes fly differently at night than they do during the day? If not why would they need to land differently?
Click to expand...
 
Depends on the last landing he made in it. If it's bent, quite a bit.

ScottM said:
How do you think that a pilot's visibility affect aerodynamics of the aircraft?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Depends on the last landing he made in it. If it's bent, quite a bit.
Click to expand...
No that has nothing to do with aerodynamics of the airplane and everything to do with the pilot's ability to land with less than ideal visual conditions.

You seem to be missing the point. Day or night the plane flies EXACTLY the same way and landing would be exactly the same. All that is different at night is that the pilot must depend on fewer or slightly different visual queues. But the technique of flying the airplane is the same.

If you honestly feel that a plane flies differently because of the ambient light conditions, you really need to go back and review basic aerodynamics.
 
ScottM said:
Do planes fly differently at night than they do during the day?
Click to expand...

Planes don't fly differently, but pilots may judge differently.

I tend to sense the ground a bit further than actual at night and therefore tend to flare a bit later than normal, resulting in a harder than normal landing on all three wheels. I don't like when that happens. Flaring a bit higher than you think you should would make sense to me.

However, another choice is landing with no flaps. It tends to be in the landing attitude anyway when on speed and stable anyway (at least my plane does). So there is less chance to have a nose-wheel first landing.
 
skidoo said:
Planes don't fly differently, but pilots may judge differently.

I tend to sense the ground a bit further than actual at night and therefore tend to flare a bit later than normal, resulting in a harder than normal landing on all three wheels. I don't like when that happens. Flaring a bit higher than you think you should would make sense to me.

However, another choice is landing with no flaps. It tends to be in the landing attitude anyway when on speed and stable anyway (at least my plane does). So there is less chance to have a nose-wheel first landing.
Click to expand...

Think about what you are saying.

You say that at night you cannot judge distance properly, so flair at another distance than what you are normally doing in the daylight. How are you judging that new height given that you said you cannot judge distance in the low light conditions?

Seriously, changing the way you fly for light conditions makes no sense. Learning how to use different visual queues to properly fly the plane does. You land the plane the same way. But you might use different visual techniques to achieve that same method.
 
I find myself picking a touchdown spot farther down the runway at night, provided the runway is longer than needed, to allow a little more margin for misjudging height AGL.

I haven't done enough night work to encounter every optical illusion which could affect my perception, but I know I'd feel really stupid if I touched down short of the runway.
 
I find that my best landings are the ones I do not over think. I fly the plane and react to the the cues I get while landing. When I first started to do night flights on a regular basis, about a year after I got my PPL, I tended to flare lower than during the day (on the same runway as the day flights). Obviously this was because I was getting an illusion of being higher than I really was. As I learned what the site picture should look like at the time of flaring at night, my landings have become much smoother.

I likewise was told to land with some power of night flights, and the reason was given so as not to drop onto the runway if flaring too high. I found the advice to be worthless, and I use the same settings at night that I do during the day.

I think the most important part of landing at night is to recognize what the site picture outside the plane looks like at the different phases of landing. This is probably best accomplished with someone who is adept at night landings showing you how they land and then remembering the site pictures.

For me the most important part in landing both day and night was not to over think the landing, and just fly the plane.
 
douglas393 said:
I find that my best landings are the ones I do not over think. I fly the plane and react to the the cues I get while landing.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat: every landing is different ..there is no one size fits all technique that produces the exact same greaser every time..in fact in some situations you don't want the greaser.
 
Last edited:
How many night landings have you made? How many have you taught?
ScottM said:
No that has nothing to do with aerodynamics of the airplane and everything to do with the pilot's ability to land with less than ideal visual conditions.

You seem to be missing the point. Day or night the plane flies EXACTLY the same way and landing would be exactly the same. All that is different at night is that the pilot must depend on fewer or slightly different visual queues. But the technique of flying the airplane is the same.

If you honestly feel that a plane flies differently because of the ambient light conditions, you really need to go back and review basic aerodynamics.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
How many night landings have you made? How many have you taught?
Click to expand...

Enough to know that physics and aerodynamics do not change depending on the time of day or ambient like conditions.

Next you will be likely telling us how engines are more likely to fail when you are over water. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
So you think aerodynamics are the only factor to be considered during night landings?

Have you ever landed at Cornelia Fort TN or other similarly-lit airports?


ScottM said:
Enough to know that physics and aerodynamics do not change depending on the time of day or ambient like conditions.

Next you will be likely telling us how engines are more likely to fail when you are over water. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
ScottM said:
Enough to know that physics and aerodynamics do not change depending on the time of day or ambient like conditions.

Next you will be likely telling us how engines are more likely to fail when you are over water. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

They are more likely to fail over water -you can tell by the sound change, especially over water at night....
 
It sounds to me that your instructor is trying to help you develop those different cues you will use as you learn to land at night. It is quite common to believe you are higher than you really are at night especially on very , very short final. The tendency is to flare a bit late and land on all three very firmly as one poster stated he tended to do. By doing as your instructor is teaching you to do he is protecting you from a nose wheel first landing which will damage the aircraft severely while you develop the new skills you will need to be safe and confident at night. It is a valid conservative approach. The other option would be to allow you to land as normal and have to take over at. The last second to prevent an accident. You will likely progress faster with less risk using his method until you become proficient.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I can see how your instructor coud be a contibutor to confusion, epecially if you havent yet tken the PPL written yet. There is a question on the test about changes made during night landings. Hint: your instructor would get the wrong answer.

With that said, I wonder what airplane are you flying? I also wonder about your instructor's willingness to let you fly the plane in the daytime (or does he grab the controls).

When I asked my primary CFI 'when am I going to get to solo?', his response was on the order of 'when you show me that you're ready to be PIC'. You may consider having this discussion, but keep an open mind and remember that you are the student and there to learn as much from him as possible during your short time together (and it goes by fast).

Best to you
Click to expand...

We are flying a 172, I have not soloed only because of a deferred medical. (my 60 days ended this week!) He has been asking me if I got my med cert since about my 15th week when he told me I was ready to solo. I really cant remember the last time he has taken the controls from me...maybe when I started x wind landings.

I did ask another local pilot and he said he was just being safe...no other explanation.
 
wabower said:
So you think aerodynamics are the only factor to be considered during night landings?
Click to expand...
Where did I ever make such a claim?

I think you are having a problem with comprehending what has been said.

I try once again. Although I already said in this post

ScottM said:
No that has nothing to do with aerodynamics of the airplane and everything to do with the pilot's ability to land with less than ideal visual conditions.

You seem to be missing the point. Day or night the plane flies EXACTLY the same way and landing would be exactly the same. All that is different at night is that the pilot must depend on fewer or slightly different visual queues. But the technique of flying the airplane is the same.

If you honestly feel that a plane flies differently because of the ambient light conditions, you really need to go back and review basic aerodynamics.
Click to expand...

1. Planes fly the same, land the same, etc. day or night.
2. At night visual cues changes
3. Pilot technique needs to change to accommodate the fewer visual cues
4. But plane is flying or landing any differently when it is dark, you simply need to find new cues and use them to effectively land the plane the same as you would do during the day.
 
Last edited:
ScottM said:
Where did I ever make such a claim?
Click to expand...

Who knows at this point? You've been all around this issue so many times it's impossible to know--or care.
 
wabower said:
Who knows at this point? You've been all around this issue so many times it's impossible to know--or care.
Click to expand...
Well you are the only one who seems to think that I said it. If you do not even know what was said that does not speak well for whatever point you are trying to make. I guess it all goes back to me stating that airplanes fly the same day or night and you chiming a response to that.

For your review

ScottM said:
Do planes fly differently at night than they do during the day? If not why would they need to land differently?
Click to expand...

wabower said:
Can you see everything you need to see as well at night?
Click to expand...

ScottM said:
How do you think that a pilot's visibility affect aerodynamics of the aircraft?
Click to expand...

wabower said:
Depends on the last landing he made in it. If it's bent, quite a bit.
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting to hear your explanation about visibility affects how an aircraft moves through the air differently.
 
Last edited:
Scott - give it up man. You even quoted. Wayne indirectly answered the question...you know - one of those correlative type things.
 
Some people like to argue just to argue.

Aerodynamically, the airplane does not care if it is day or night, VMC or IMC.

It is a PILOT issue.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Scott - give it up man. You even quoted. Wayne indirectly answered the question...you know - one of those correlative type things.
Click to expand...
Well I am not seeing where Wayne answered a question about how a plane flies differently at night than during the day. I see where he completely did not understand that difference between technique to achieve a desired outcome and how a plane actually flies.

But yeah, I'll give it a rest. Wayne just doe not seem to get it. Hope when he is flying his plane completely different at night due to it variable illumination dependent aerodynamics, we won't be sharing the same sky. :D:D

The key to night landings is to know how to see that you are achieving the same effects during landing that you do during the day. The plane has no idea if it is day or night. The plane is not anymore likely to crash because of the time of day. But a pilot who thinks that they plane is flying differently and take actions to compensate for that difference is likely to have an outcome that is different. So know where to look, don't over fly your landing lights, but don't change your flap settings, flare differently, etc.
 
Last edited:
Aircraft don't fly differently at night, pilots fly differently at night, especially the good ones....
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top