Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset?

[Fearless Tower]

Anyone familiar with the decision making process that the FAA used on this one?

There have been a few threads already on the specifics, but the regs say you must be night current to carry pax 1 hour after sunset, but you are okay to carry pax up to 1 hr after the sun goes down. Why? Based on recent experience, I can tell you that it ain't that much different 30-45 min after the sun sets.

I started thinking about this after my flight on Friday. Took my wife up in the 170 to fly up to FUL for a weekend trip to Magic Kingdom. As usual, my wife took plenty of time to get ready so it was late afternoon before we departed. Flight plan had us arriving about 10 minutes after sunset. Now, what I hadn't accounted for was how freakin' long it was going to take to climb to 6k in the fully loaded 170. With the winds aloft courtresy of the Santa Anas, we were only doing about 55-60 kts ground speed in the climb. End result was shooting the VOR approach about 25-30 minutes after sunset.

Now, here's the thing - 30 minutes after sunset is plenty dark and the ground environment is definitely shifted to the nightime look (where the airport lights are dwarfed compared to the city lights). We made it safely on the ground without any issues, but let's just say that if I hadn't flown that approach in the daytime/been familiar with the airport and had my handheld gps, it would have been a very uncomfortable situation. As it was, the pucker factor was a bit higher than I like it.

All of this was perfectly legal, although as we have discussed before what is legal is not necessarily safe.

But, I am curious as to why the FAA thinks that up to 1 hr after sunset is okay to be flying pax without night currency? Wouldn't limiting it to Civil Twilight (typically 30 minutes after sunset) be more reasonable?

 

[saracelica]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

You presume the FAA which is not staffed with many pilots have common sense. I think they just chose to go with one hour after to make it a standard.

 

[Old Geek]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

A wild-assed guess is that there's still some light one hour after sunset in the middle of the summer.

 

[airguy]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

You presume the FAA which is not staffed with many pilots have common sense. I think they just chose to go with one hour after to make it a standard.

Agreed.

My home strip is short, narrow, unlighted, and has highline wires at both ends. My personal minimum is 10 minutes after sunset, I won't attempt a landing there after that. I've done enough of them in twilight to know that 10 minutes after sunset is the point where I can see the powerpoles on short final, but can't see the wires anymore - and that's outside my comfort level. I'll go land at the lighted strip a few miles away and have someone come pick me up.

Dark night-time operations vary considerably based on geography, I think the FAA just picked one hour because it sounded good and was easy to write up. Civil twilight would be a better marker IMHO.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

A lot of the detailed safety regulations arise out of some mishap. Whether this is one of them or not I don't know.

Why the 1-hour? They had to pick something. WAG is that there is still available light. Maybe an aviation history buff will pipe in.

 

[rottydaddy]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

FWIW, and not to presume the FAA looks at it the same way:
My personal night flight experience is very limited, but the few training flights I made that began after that magic hour had passed began with a takeoff in the dark. At a suburban or rural airport, or adjacent to a large body of water, even in good weather ( if there is no moon or a crescent moon) once you rise above the runway lights (which have just trashed your night vision, unless you keep one eye closed), you are climbing into a black hole. Even with a few scattered house lights or vehicle lights on nearby roads, the first turn, especially if you are still climbing, is rather interesting. First time I took off at night, I went directly to my panel scan and said "geez, this is like an instrument departure." My instructor said "it basically is an instrument departure."

By comparison, arriving after it's officially night, even with the issues the OP describes, is a lot easier, IMHO. I guess the possibility that runway lights or aircraft lights may fail is a consideration of the FAA, not to mention emergency landings, but still, I think takeoff after dark is the most challenging.
Oddly enough, taking off or landing directly into the setting sun is almost as bad... but no recent currency is required to do so carrying pax. It's one of those perfectly legal ways you can get into trouble, just like flying over fog or an overcast.

 

[mikea]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

A wild-assed guess is that there's still some light one hour after sunset in the middle of the summer.

Yep. How long the light lasts changes with the season. It stays bright a lot longer in the spring and summer.

There are also winter nights where the moonlight at midnight, especially on snow, makes it bright as dusk.

I think we discussed this before and it was one of the deals where Alaska lobbied because otherwise they'd be night flying for 3/4 of the year.

 

[TommyG]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

They also figure in the oops factor, Say that you are out and your heading back to your home airport, planning to get back in time before sunset, but headwinds, or some other things factor in, and now your landing 30 mins after sunset. Your not in violation.

 

[Wingsofglass]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

I've always looked at this as a training requirement - meaning if you are going to claim you are night current or log night hours, it really has to be night. And for this reason, I like the reg. If a pilot can't use their judgement to figure what night is or make the distinction between safe vs. legal, well, that's a much a bigger problem.

After reading about a few accidents recently, I no will no longer fly into any airport at night without a) a functioning glide slope indicator of some sort and/or a precision instrument approach.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

Here's the thing - I don't see a problem with requiring that the takeoffs and landings for night currency take place an hour after sunset - that makes sense for the reasons mentioned above. My point is why they allow you to still carry pax up to that point.

Seems like the reg is written that way for pure simplicity reasons, but from a safety standpoint, it would make more sense to make the limit for carrying pax more stringent.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

There are two times each day associated with before dawn and after sunset:

Twilight: Before sunrise and again after sunset there are intervals of time, twilight, during which there is natural light provided by the upper atmosphere, which does receive direct sunlight and reflects part of it toward the Earth's surface. Some outdoor activities may be conducted without artificial illumination during these intervals, and it is useful to have some means to set limits beyond which a certain activity should be assisted by artificial lighting. The major determinants of the amount of natural light during twilight are the state of the atmosphere generally and local weather conditions in particular. Atmospheric conditions are best determined at the actual time and place of events. Nevertheless, it is possible to establish useful, though necessarily approximate, limits applicable to large classes of activities by considering only the position of the Sun below the local horizon. Reasonable and convenient definitions have evolved.

Lots more here: US Navy Portal

 

[Fearless Tower]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

There are two times each day associated with before dawn and after sunset:



Lots more here: US Navy Portal

Yes, I am aware of that (US Navy shipdriver/former merchant mariner trained in Celestial Nav).

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

Yes, I am aware of that (US Navy shipdriver/former merchant mariner trained in Celestial Nav).

Ok.

We Army Armor and Infantry officers used BMNT and EENT (co-opted from the Navy).

The point being that in clear conditions there is sufficient light before sunrise and after sunset in many places on many days. The "one hour" rule sorta aligns with this.

 

[nosehair]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

The rule was made way back when men were men.
Quit whining or some FAA G-man will start another empire.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

Here's the thing - I don't see a problem with requiring that the takeoffs and landings for night currency take place an hour after sunset - that makes sense for the reasons mentioned above. My point is why they allow you to still carry pax up to that point.

Seems like the reg is written that way for pure simplicity reasons, but from a safety standpoint, it would make more sense to make the limit for carrying pax more stringent.

The concept of night is already dealt with in three different ways by the FAA (the general definition in FAR 1.1), the requirement for nav lights in 91.209; landing currency). Some would say it's already unnecessary confusing. You're looking for yet another definition?

 

[dmspilot]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

Here's the thing - I don't see a problem with requiring that the takeoffs and landings for night currency take place an hour after sunset - that makes sense for the reasons mentioned above. My point is why they allow you to still carry pax up to that point.

I always wondered this myself. It would make more sense to require the currency to be conducted 1 hour after in order to carry passengers after twilight. But sometimes it's better not to ask and not give the FAA ideas for making regulations more stringent.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

Anyone familiar with the decision making process that the FAA used on this one?

There have been a few threads already on the specifics, but the regs say you must be night current to carry pax 1 hour after sunset, but you are okay to carry pax up to 1 hr after the sun goes down. Why? Based on recent experience, I can tell you that it ain't that much different 30-45 min after the sun sets.

I started thinking about this after my flight on Friday. Took my wife up in the 170 to fly up to FUL for a weekend trip to Magic Kingdom. As usual, my wife took plenty of time to get ready so it was late afternoon before we departed. Flight plan had us arriving about 10 minutes after sunset. Now, what I hadn't accounted for was how freakin' long it was going to take to climb to 6k in the fully loaded 170. With the winds aloft courtresy of the Santa Anas, we were only doing about 55-60 kts ground speed in the climb. End result was shooting the VOR approach about 25-30 minutes after sunset.

Now, here's the thing - 30 minutes after sunset is plenty dark and the ground environment is definitely shifted to the nightime look (where the airport lights are dwarfed compared to the city lights). We made it safely on the ground without any issues, but let's just say that if I hadn't flown that approach in the daytime/been familiar with the airport and had my handheld gps, it would have been a very uncomfortable situation. As it was, the pucker factor was a bit higher than I like it.

All of this was perfectly legal, although as we have discussed before what is legal is not necessarily safe.

But, I am curious as to why the FAA thinks that up to 1 hr after sunset is okay to be flying pax without night currency? Wouldn't limiting it to Civil Twilight (typically 30 minutes after sunset) be more reasonable?

You are expected to know your own limits and abilities. If 30 minutes after sunset is your limit, then it is good that you know that and you will use your own good judgement to stay within that limit. The problem is that there are those who don't have that good judgement and who will quibble over a few minutes one way or the other. I don't personally believe that it is any lighter 1 hour after sunset than it is 2 hours after sunset at the latitudes where I fly. So that being said, 1 hour after sunset is night as far as I can tell. If 45 minutes after sunset is also night, well, it is up to me to realize that and make sure to be night current before taking my friends or loved ones up (or down) at that time.

 

[Morne]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

What percentage of accidents occur during that magical hour either before sunrise or after sunset?

 

[MBDiagMan]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

Anyone familiar with the decision making process that the FAA used on this one?

There have been a few threads already on the specifics, but the regs say you must be night current to carry pax 1 hour after sunset, but you are okay to carry pax up to 1 hr after the sun goes down. Why? Based on recent experience, I can tell you that it ain't that much different 30-45 min after the sun sets.

I started thinking about this after my flight on Friday. Took my wife up in the 170 to fly up to FUL for a weekend trip to Magic Kingdom. As usual, my wife took plenty of time to get ready so it was late afternoon before we departed. Flight plan had us arriving about 10 minutes after sunset. Now, what I hadn't accounted for was how freakin' long it was going to take to climb to 6k in the fully loaded 170. With the winds aloft courtresy of the Santa Anas, we were only doing about 55-60 kts ground speed in the climb. End result was shooting the VOR approach about 25-30 minutes after sunset.

Now, here's the thing - 30 minutes after sunset is plenty dark and the ground environment is definitely shifted to the nightime look (where the airport lights are dwarfed compared to the city lights). We made it safely on the ground without any issues, but let's just say that if I hadn't flown that approach in the daytime/been familiar with the airport and had my handheld gps, it would have been a very uncomfortable situation. As it was, the pucker factor was a bit higher than I like it.

All of this was perfectly legal, although as we have discussed before what is legal is not necessarily safe.

But, I am curious as to why the FAA thinks that up to 1 hr after sunset is okay to be flying pax without night currency? Wouldn't limiting it to Civil Twilight (typically 30 minutes after sunset) be more reasonable?

It sounds to me like maybe your situation is an example of what led them to it. They may have done it for such a situation where wind conditions or other reasons cause you to be a little later than planned.

BTW, I use to fly to Fullerton from LAX in a commuter plane in the late seventies. I stayed at the Buena Park Hotel next to Knot's Berry Farm. Is Knotts now Magic Kingdom?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Re: Night Currency - why the FAA thinks it is okay to fly pax up to 1 hr after sunset

I stayed at the Buena Park Hotel next to Knot's Berry Farm. Is Knotts now Magic Kingdom?

No, Knotts is still its own separate park. You actually fly over it on the VOR approach to FUL. In fact, that was one of the landmarks I used to maintain my SA of where I was in relation to the field. It is lit up a heck of alot better than the airport!