Newly Minted Private pilot.

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Tan, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi Everyone,

    Just got my ppl but have been looking for awhile on my first plane. Da40 has always been ,my first choice but the price is too far out of my range. I’ve narrowed it down to 182r or Q and Piper Dakota. Seams to be a sellers market right now. Should I wait closer to 2020 to purchase.
     
  2. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

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    I can hook you up with headsets for your new plane :)
    There are always good deals to be found on planes but when you find it jump on it because someone else will.
     
  3. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Congrats! Welcome!

    Hard to predict what prices will do by next year.
     
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  4. Scott@KTYR

    Scott@KTYR Pattern Altitude

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    Welcome and Congrats!!!
     
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  5. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    LOW WING.


    and welcome.
     
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  6. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing Pattern Altitude

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    High and Low is the way to go! Pitts N117TH5.jpg stearman 2.jpeg
     
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  7. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    Are you going to trust a guy who sits naked in a laundry basket for airplane advice?

    HIGH WING.
     
  8. DutchRoller

    DutchRoller Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I’d go for the 182 but we are all different with our own tastes and missions. What it it that you like about each of the models you listed? What do you dislike?
     
  9. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Welcome,go out and fly them both,then make the decision. I like the 182 for ease of entry.
     
  10. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yea, define your mission, or 90% plus of them... The local airport manager encourged me to get one with as low of operating costs as possible to rack up the hours. He said he seen too many times folks sell their first plane and upgrade to a 182 or whatnot and because of the increased expense they flew less and less. He said these were people very much with the means to fill up a thirsty bird. By no means am I saying don't get a "big" solid bird- but if you are going to be chasing cheeseburgers with a buddy on Saturday those may be bigger planes than what you need.... I opted for a 2 seat gas sipper and keep my club membership with a 180hp 172 for the couple times a year I may actually need all 4 seats. There are plenty of folks whos 90% of their missions would call for a 182... So not pushing you one way or other, but define that mission. For me, even if I could have wrote a ripper for a decked out 182, for what I do would I really want to be dumping all that gas into her to run an hour for burgers with the airplane gang? For me it was no... Define majority of your missions and that will define what plane you "need"...
     
  11. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    I like the Da 40 because Of the way it flies. I have yet to fly a 182 but it seems like a nose heavy 172. I don’t like the way the 172 lands or isn’t as responsive on the controls. Maybe it’s part of the high wing issue and the diamond has an amazing view with the issue of a hot cockpit here in California.
     
  12. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    You are really comparing 2 very different airplanes.
     
  13. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've flown in a DA40 but dont have a lot of experience with them overall. I have more hours in a 182 which isn't saying a lot but in my experience, I enjoyed the DA40 more.

    Of course as others have pointed out, it depends on your mission. As you noted the 182 flies a lot like the 172 but with a heavier nose and the addition of cowl flaps and manifold/prop control. Most of the added power in the 182 goes to increasing its maximum gross weight while the added speed offsets the higher fuel burn quite nicely, you're talking about adding/saving about a little less than 15 minutes for every 150NM you travel which is neither great for getting you places quickly (a 500 NM XC will take 3.4 hours in a 182 vs 4.15 in a 172, only 45 minutes more) or for building time (a 145NM XC will get you about 1 in the 182 whereas it'll be closer to 1.2-1.3 in a 172). Considering you'll pay more to buy and insure the 182, I'd go with the 172 before buying a 182 unless your mission requires the additional max gross weight and plan to regularly fill your plane...

    The 172RG Cutlass would be my second choice; speed performance near that of a 182 but engine performance closer to that of the 172 but that's a bit of an unfair comparison since you're not comparing apples to apples... The 182RG has pretty much the same "performance" gains over the 172RG as the 182 has over the 182. Of course 172RGs are also harder to come by than their bigger sisters and buying, insuring and inspecting either RG cessna is going to be more expensive than their fixed gear variant.

    As to the DA40, at 150kts cruise and a gross weight fairly comparable to the 182, the DA40 is a nice bird that will have a similar fuel burn as the 172 but you're going to pay 2-3x as much for a used DA40 as you would for a used C182 (which is itself 2-3 times as much as a 172). That's before insurance premiums so most of the gains you make in operational expenditures are instead going into the capital expenditure... Of course, if you're flying for business purposes, that could be a good thing since you can write of some of the capital expenses on taxes.
     
  14. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Try out a Cessna 177 Cardinal. They come in fixed and retractable gear, and fixed and constant speed props. And, they look amazingly cool.

    They are faster than a 172, and less expensive than a 182. But, because of the cantilever wing set behind the pilot, they are nose heavy, and use a horizontal stabilator for keeping the nose up when landing. There are nose weight reduction mods available, too.
     
  15. cgrab

    cgrab Pattern Altitude

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    Congrats on your license to learn...I fly a Cardinal, learned in a 172, got the Card because of the unobstructed view below and because my wife is short and it is much easier to enter. I like two doors but I took out the back seat and insure it as a two seater. I can put the dogs in the back in a carrier. I can also put my folding bike and a lot of camping gear or my wife's luggage.
     
  16. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    172/182 vs PA28, it’s really more alike than anything, high wing vs low wing, meh, unless you need the height for off airport stuff, it really doesnt matter. If you fly enough stuff most of the standard issue trainer trike types fly about the same.
     
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  17. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller En-Route

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    177 is a good plane but during your pre-buy inspection take a good look at the wing spar carry through. Corrosion there can be a very expensive repair. Need a new carry through? My understanding is that they are very hard to find. Caveat Emptor.

    Having said that, please understand that this is all second hand information. I have no direct experience with the 177.

    -Skip
     
  18. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    A pilot side door sure is nice and probably the only knock against a Dakota vs the others. A friend at the airport has a Dakota, we have a 182. Did a airport fun flight this Saturday. I think I had like a 3kt overtake but we were both dialed back a bit. Both of us were hauling a few passenger with full fuel and W&B to spare. I wish I would have got close enough for some pictures - low wings look cooler in flight (except Cardinal and strutless Centurions). Oh well, next time.

    I think you need to share your "Flying Wish List" to help us better understand the plane choice. How many passengers? How heavy are they? How far will 90% of your trips be (not pattern work, actual cross country trips).

    For the others: Do you really think the 2020 ADSB mandate expiring will effect airplane prices that much. It seems to me that you will have one of 2 scenarios:

    1.) Someone has updated to ADSB Out and they will pass along a fair amount of that cost as its mandatory. Lets say they spent $8K to install a Garmin 345, I would think they would at least recover $6K of that???

    2.) Someone has not updated. I don't see them dropping the price $25K because they didn't equipment. I could see them knocking $6K off the price towards you equipping but they don't have to either.


    ...example: will that low time Dakota that is $85K today with no ADSB and no navigator mysteriously drop by $20K because it isn't equipped...I don't think so?
     
  19. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Define your mission. Do you want to travel longer distances, or just do relatively local sightseeing and $100 hamburger runs? How much weight do you want to be able to carry on a trip?

    I would take a 182 over a Dakota any day of the week, mainly because the 182 is more comfortable and slightly bigger inside. Don't listen to the high-wing/low-wing nonsense, it really doesn't matter where the wing is.

    For what it's worth, I have about 150 hours in DA40s, 500 hours in 182s, and probably 400 hours in PA28s including the Dakota.

    But, also wondering what your budget is? Like for like, a Dakota is probably cheaper than a 182, but like I said, not as nice in terms of comfort. Neither one of them will fly anywhere near as nicely as a DA40. Looking at 182Q models, it looks like they're generally in the $90K-$150K range for asking prices. While there aren't nearly as many Diamonds for sale, a non-glass panel one like this is right in that same range. There will be far fewer of these for sale (the "steam gauge" DA40s were only produced from 2001-2003) but if you can afford the nicer 182s, you can also afford an older DA40.

    In addition, an "older" DA40 is still going to be 20 years younger than a 182. I would expect your operating costs on the DA40 to be around $30/hr lower than the 182Q, so if you're getting a loan for the purchase price, be sure to factor that in as well - You can probably afford more DA40 than 182, provided the DA40 carries enough weight to meet your mission.
     
  20. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    I own a Dakota and learned in a 172/182. If you live in a windy area, the Dakota is nicer in strong crosswinds and while taxiing in windy conditions. You just have to get used to a single door.
     
  21. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    Of course I have to jump in here and suggest consideration of a Grumman Tiger - 90% of the performance of a DA40 at 30% of the price. Better visibility (the DA40 glare shield height is a design flaw IMHO), no concerns re single door, cheaper annuals I’m told, good community support, tried and true O-360, supposedly sportier handling than a DA40.
    Someone will be along shortly to proffer their opinion that they can’t be boarded in the rain.....
     
  22. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Huh? DA40 glare shield is not "high" at all. I can see the entire cowling over the top of it, so it's not blocking anything visibility-wise. And the DA40 has both a canopy AND a back door, so not sure where "single door" is coming from. And it has the "tried and true" IO-360. ;)

    I wouldn't call it sportier than the DA40, though I have 150ish hours in the DA40 and only about 2 in the Tiger, and I'm guessing you're the opposite. ;)

    The DA40 probably does have a slower roll rate for the same amount of pressure just because its wing is somewhat longer, but I would just say they're "different", not that one is better than the other. IMO, the DA40 makes up for any less "sporty" handling by the fact that it's through a stick instead of a yoke, and that returns some more of the sporty feel to it.
     
  23. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    Ooooh this is getting good.

    :popcorn:
     
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  24. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    DEE99523-A72F-421A-B4E9-B69954541DFA.png
    The single door was in reference to the comments here alluding to the P-types.
    Referrable to the glare shield, I submit the image at top of post (images always seem to go there....?)
     
  25. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    .....there are any number of YouTube videos landing DA40s and AA5s - reach your own conclusion re view over glare shields.
    Both are fine airplanes - I might have a Diamond if $s didn’t matter. I’ve always said Diamonds are the Benz’s of the GA world.
    View attachment 71821
    The single door was in reference to the comments here alluding to the P-types.
    Referrable to the glare shield, I submit this image
    I was just adding another point for consideration of the OP.
     
  26. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Aha.

    Right... The glareshield is only a few inches above the cowl, and the cowl is pretty low on the DA40.

    After you hit "Upload File", there'll be a pair of buttons next to the filename below the text box, and you can click to insert "Full Image" or "Thumbnail" wherever your cursor is.
     
  27. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    .....thanks. Even tho my cursor is always at bottom of text, the image always seems to go to the top. No big deal, just a continuity of thought issue
     
  28. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    I have about 40 hours in a da40 2007 xl. Great plane. Just not very comfortable after a couple of hours of flying. I’ve flown a pa28 and it was more comfortable than the da40 because of after market seats. My friend has a da40 and got a great deal back in 2016. 500 hr da40 with g1000. 170k. Now they are much higher. That one you showed me will need a new engine soon and the avionics suck with no autopilot. I missed the buyers market. I haven’t flown a 182 so I really want to fly one but my local fields don’t seem to have them.
     
  29. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Fair enough. The seats are a bit firm in the DA40, but that's nothing that can't be solved with a cushion, unless you're as tall as me and need all the headroom.

    The 182 is more comfortable than the PA28 - Wider, with a more upright seating position. I've flown a couple of 5+ hour legs in the 182, and 8+ hour days, without getting sick of the seat or the position. I don't think I can really say that for any other airplane.

    Where are you located? Maybe someone here knows somebody nearby with a 182 who could take you for a ride. Otherwise, you could try to make one of the fly-in events we have, and probably get rides in a bunch of different planes. :)
     
  30. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    In my opinion the da40 is easier to fly and handles better than 172. Not sure about the 182 but it’s a heavier. I’m leaning towards the 182 for many different reasons such as maintenance, options to add such as gfc 500 and useful load.
     
  31. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep. It's REALLY hard to find airplanes that fly as well as the DA40. The first one that comes to mind is the P-51 Mustang, but that's a bit of a different animal. ;)

    So yeah, the 182 won't be as fun to hand-fly as the DA40. OTOH, as I've said many times, the 182 is one of the very best airplanes to be your first one to own.
     
  32. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    My budget is around 120k. I’ve been looking at 182Qs and Rs. They are hard find lately. I fly out of KREI Redlands CA.
     
  33. Brad Smith

    Brad Smith Pre-takeoff checklist

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  34. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You go a little faster in a 182 for considerably more cost. The rule of thumb (ROT?) is buy a plane that meets 90% of your missions, and rent for the rest.
     
  35. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I see this all the time. And it makes some sense, except: Once I get to complex, high performance aircraft or twins, there's nowhere to rent them. And i live in a fairly larege urban area with multiple GA airports, flight schools, etc. (Orlando area, KORL, KSFB, X04, KISM, etc.)
     
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  36. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Peppermint? Spearmint? Wintergreen?

    As far as the nose heavy thing. You guys got spaghetti arms or something? Never noticed a heavy nose in a 182.
     
  37. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It handles like a bigger airplane, because that's what it is. That's what I would expect 172 drivers to say about it.

    It's also more stable in turbulence, and more solid in IMC... Yes, it's a truck, not a sports car.
     
  38. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    Won’t be a problem for me but everyone keeps mentioning that and to look out for firewall damage. Trim for landing and your set. Only issue is I can’t rent one at my field.
     
  39. Tan

    Tan Filing Flight Plan

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    Same here. You can’t really rent a nice plane around my area. Mainly trainers.
     
  40. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah everyone mentioned that to me also and then the first time I flew a 182 I was wondering where the heavy nose was. If you just keep the control stick or yoke all the way back after the mains touchdown the front-end should let down gently and that should go for just about every airplane.

    I think a lot of people as soon as the mains touchdown they let the back pressure on the yoke go and down comes the nose. Just keep it in your lap.
     
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