Newbie questions

[CrimsonFlyer]

1) Questions for Bay Area folks: I was departing KPAO, requesting left downwind departure and flight following to KSNS. On left downwind, KPAO tower handed me off to KNUQ. KNUQ tower gave me altitude restrictions and asked me to stay clear of San Jose class C airspace. But I wanted to go through Charlie, so...

Me: "Cherokee 33M requesting Pruneyard transition." [This way point is inside Charlie]
KNUQ: "Cherokee 33M, contact Norcal xxx.xx"
Me: "xxx.xx, 33M" then "Norcal, Cherokee 1133M, three thousand"
Norcal: "N1133M, at or below three thousand five hundred, stay clear of the Bravo." [Bravo is above Charlie.]
Me: "At or below three thousand five hundred, stay clear of the Bravo, 33M. And are we cleared to enter San Jose Charlie?"
Norcal [sounding extremely annoyed]: "You're talking to me." And he didn't say anything more.

Of course I knew that I only needed talk to ATC to go through Charlie, but the previous controller had already asked me to stay clear of Charlie. Was it really stupid of me to ask Norcal for Charlie clearance?

2) Different scenario: When Norcal tells me, "N1133M, radar service terminated, contact Livermore tower on xxx.xx," do they hand me off to tower? Or do I have to tell tower my location when contacting them? If Norcal doesn't state that radar service is terminated, I would just need to say, "Livermore tower, Cherokee 1133M, landing with Bravo", with no need for location report, right?

These seen minor questions, but as a newbie pilot flying in a congested airspace I want my communication to be as concise and as appropriate as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[luvflyin]

Not a Bay Area pilot but I'll get it kick started.

1). NUQ Tower is ATC so 91.123 b. applies. ATC gave you an instruction and you complied with it.

2). Terminating you implies no "Radar" handoff was made. The term "handoff" gets used generically a lot. From our view as pilots it generally means the next controller knows we're coming because the last controller has coordinated it. Unless I have some specific reason at the time not to, if told to simply "contact" the next controller without anything else like "with your request" I'll just check in.

 

[Palmpilot]

1. Moffett Tower is not normally the facility that provides air traffic services for the San Jose class C airspace, so I would interpret their telling you to remain clear of it as just a reminder that you hadn't yet met the requirements of 91.130(c). Once you had two-way communication with Norcal, you met the requirement. (Note that that reg does not use the word "clearance.") However, it is never "really stupid" to request clarification from ATC. In fact, 91.123(a) requires you to do so whenever you are "uncertain of an ATC clearance."

2. If I heard "radar service terminated," I would take that as an indication that I need to include a position report in my initial call to the tower. Did the approach controller tell you to squawk VFR? If so, that would reinforce that conclusion.

 

[MAKG1]

Just don't use the word "cleared" about Class C and everyone will be happy.

You had an instruction to remain clear. The actual condition is that, without another instruction, you must remain clear even after the handoff. BUT, when you contacted NorCal, you got another instruction. The previous one is now gone.

I'd ask for clarification in your circumstances as well. To prevent this, it's good practice to report restrictions during your handoff. "NorCal Cessna 123XY level 3000 restricted outside Class C." If they don't respond with "resume own navigation," request it.

If it's still unclear, "request own navigation" will get a response. Clearance is not required, and if you ask for it, you'll get told so.

The fact that new altitude restrictions cancel navigation restrictions, and vice-versa, causes confusion on both sides of the mic, so it's very much worth it to ask.

I've never heard of a "pruneyard transition," but it makes sense. Watch out for illegal drones over the Spaceship, though. And be aware that if SFO is using the "East Plan," SJC will be landing 12L/R, and that part of Class C will get kinda crowded. There is a lot of inbound north traffic that has to make a downwind entry, whereas normally, they would get a straight in. Departing traffic from 30L/R exits on the other side of Class C (Loupe Departure).

If you get "radar services terminated," it's no longer a handoff. It's pretty common, though, to be told to keep the code and contact Tower. Then, it IS a handoff.

 

[citizen5000]

1) Questions for Bay Area folks: I was departing KPAO, requesting left downwind departure and flight following to KSNS. On left downwind, KPAO tower handed me off to KNUQ. KNUQ tower gave me altitude restrictions and asked me to stay clear of San Jose class C airspace. But I wanted to go through Charlie, so...

Me: "Cherokee 33M requesting Pruneyard transition." [This way point is inside Charlie]
KNUQ: "Cherokee 33M, contact Norcal xxx.xx"
Me: "xxx.xx, 33M" then "Norcal, Cherokee 1133M, three thousand"
Norcal: "N1133M, at or below three thousand five hundred, stay clear of the Bravo." [Bravo is above Charlie.]
Me: "At or below three thousand five hundred, stay clear of the Bravo, 33M. And are we cleared to enter San Jose Charlie?"
Norcal [sounding extremely annoyed]: "You're talking to me." And he didn't say anything more.

Of course I knew that I only needed talk to ATC to go through Charlie, but the previous controller had already asked me to stay clear of Charlie. Was it really stupid of me to ask Norcal for Charlie clearance?

2) Different scenario: When Norcal tells me, "N1133M, radar service terminated, contact Livermore tower on xxx.xx," do they hand me off to tower? Or do I have to tell tower my location when contacting them? If Norcal doesn't state that radar service is terminated, I would just need to say, "Livermore tower, Cherokee 1133M, landing with Bravo", with no need for location report, right?

These seen minor questions, but as a newbie pilot flying in a congested airspace I want my communication to be as concise and as appropriate as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the tower told you to stay clear then you must stay clear. Once handed off to Norcal you can them why. They should have no reason not to tell you unless they are too busy.

If you are talking to Norcal and they hand you off to ANY tower frequency you are supposed to immediately switch and state your position/intention.

 

[Shawn]

Was it really stupid of me to ask Norcal for Charlie clearance?

Yes it was stupid of you to request a Clearance...but not at all stupid to query ATC in this scenario. "Clearance" is not required for C/D nor would it be given. It may seem like semantics but a "clearance" has a very specific meaning and importance when it comes to other things like Bravo and IFR terminology but does not apply to C/D hence the irritated controller

I would have handled it one of two ways to clarify. First as MAKG1 said on handoff, "NorCal, Cherokee 1133M level three thousand restricted outside Charlie"...or "NorCal, Cherokee 1133M level three thousand request Charlie transition"

The term "blah, blah, blah,...restricted [insert instruction here]" is a way to query the new controller that you were given a specific instruction previously that they may not be aware of and you wanna know if it still applies. Could be altitude, heading, remain clear, whatever. If they do not give you a new instruction it still applies but more times than not you will get what ya need right away.

2) Different scenario: When Norcal tells me, "N1133M, radar service terminated, contact Livermore tower on xxx.xx," do they hand me off to tower? Or do I have to tell tower my location when contacting them? If Norcal doesn't state that radar service is terminated, I would just need to say, "Livermore tower, Cherokee 1133M, landing with Bravo", with no need for location report, right?

Correct. I specifically asked about this at a TRCAON tour. If you are just given "radar services terminated, contact tower" that is just a hand off and simply means that you are no longer receiving radar traffic advisories but you are still in communication which meets the definition to be able to enter C/D and they know you are coming since you still have your squawk. Now, if you are given "Radar services terminated, squawk VFR frequency change approved" before the airspace boundary...THEN you need to reestablish contact with Tower and start over with location before entering the airspace as you are no longer in communication. Kinda a jerk move by ATC but it does happen.

 

[Ravioli]

on your second question... rarely if ever is the full position report needed.

I've had ONE time where McKinney got short with me... I had been on FF through the Bravo and they canceled me when I reported airport in sight. Calling up tower I said "airplane 1234, three thousand feet" and they said "You gotta tell me more than that" so I did the whole report and continued. But usually my call works in the area.

YMMV

 

[luvflyin]

on your second question... rarely if ever is the full position report needed.

I've had ONE time where McKinney got short with me... I had been on FF through the Bravo and they canceled me when I reported airport in sight. Calling up tower I said "airplane 1234, three thousand feet" and they said "You gotta tell me more than that" so I did the whole report and continued. But usually my call works in the area.

YMMV

When Approach terminated you, what did they say? Contact Tower? frequency change approved? good day? or just nothing? Did they tell you to squawk VFR?

 

[Dave S.]

2) Different scenario: When Norcal tells me, "N1133M, radar service terminated, contact Livermore tower on xxx.xx," do they hand me off to tower? Or do I have to tell tower my location when contacting them? If Norcal doesn't state that radar service is terminated, I would just need to say, "Livermore tower, Cherokee 1133M, landing with Bravo", with no need for location report, right?

These seen minor questions, but as a newbie pilot flying in a congested airspace I want my communication to be as concise and as appropriate as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the controller told you radar service terminated but did not ask you to sqwak VFR then that means the data block is probably being used to transfer info the receiving controller (in this case tower) but that approach is not providing services to the runway such as sequencing or separation. This would be define in the local operating procedures. I can not find anything in the Livermore SOP about separation responsibilities with NORCAL. But I can say this, if the terminated you, and that is supposed to be outside of 10 mile radius of the airport, then they are not separating or sequencing you to livermore from the point they terminated you. ATC can not provide a radar service is radar service is terminated. However, of the datablock is stilll active (and would be if they did not tell you to change code) then the "handoff" (informational handoff) is accomplished and you can simply call the tower with nothing more. If they tell you to change to VFR 1200 then you would.

tex

 

[Skip Miller]

If the controller told you radar service terminated but did not ask you to sqwak VFR then that means the data block is probably being used to transfer info the receiving controller....

Beware of "probably". When in doubt, ask. -Skip

 

[Palmpilot]

Beware of "probably". When in doubt, ask. -Skip

Although that's usually the best thing to do, in this case, it would take less time to just include a position report in the initial call to the tower.