New Student, Questioning Future

Go for it Joe. I think there are three issues affecting GA:

1. Cost (of fuel and aircraft certification, including equipment and avionics).
2. Regulation, but this is not specific to GA. People used to know they were taking a risk doing something, and if they did something stupid, they accepted the consequences. Now,, people want to do things, but if any accident happens, they are looking for someone else to blame. This eventually results in more and more regulation.
3. Time. People just don't have enough time.
 
joeparrilla said:
Trust me, I know. The problem is I work 40+ hours a week which leaves me with only weekends to fly. If I could fly every day I would. I am going to speak to my instructor to try to fit in as much as I can, but I am just trying to be realistic.
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I worked 40 hrs+ a week doing my PP and lived on an island off California. I had Thursday and Friday for my weekend. My instructor would pick me up on the island, we'd fly a lesson on the way back, do some ground, I'd hand at the school, read, ask questions, study, fly another lesson, then head to my buddy's in Newport to spend the night. Next day back to LGB and reverse the process dropping me off on the island. Where there is a will, there is a way. If you live near the airport, or at least with decent access, morning and evening flights become an option.
 
jesse said:
I too am a full time software developer that spends a substantial amount of my money aviating. I too sometimes wonder how much longer GA will be around - but at the end of the day - I know that if GA does **** out I will be kicking myself for not enjoying it while I could.
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Well said Jesse!!!
 
Henning said:
I worked 40 hrs+ a week doing my PP and lived on an island off California. I had Thursday and Friday for my weekend. My instructor would pick me up on the island, we'd fly a lesson on the way back, do some ground, I'd hand at the school, read, ask questions, study, fly another lesson, then head to my buddy's in Newport to spend the night. Next day back to LGB and reverse the process dropping me off on the island. Where there is a will, there is a way. If you live near the airport, or at least with decent access, morning and evening flights become an option.
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I actually had some questions about night flights.. are they an option during PPL training. Night is officially not VFR right? What is the deal with that?

Also, I really want to fly both Saturday and Sunday.. but it seems as though no instructors work both weekend days.. and my school wants you to stay with one instructor all the time. So it really isnt possible to fly on both days. Two in one day seems plausible though. Trust me, I am trying all I can to fly often...I have the will... but I am not sure the way is very clear :)
 
Henning said:
You shouldn't spend near $10k to get a PPL, and GA will not shut down. BTW, you want to fly at least 3 times a week to make good progress, flying once a week or less is the road to spending $10k and taking 70hrs to get a PPL.
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There's an FBO at KPWK quoting walk in students $15k-$25k for a PPL.... WTF!?!?
 
joeparrilla said:
I actually had some questions about night flights.. are they an option during PPL training. Night is officially not VFR right? What is the deal with that?

Also, I really want to fly both Saturday and Sunday.. but it seems as though no instructors work both weekend days.. and my school wants you to stay with one instructor all the time. So it really isnt possible to fly on both days. Two in one day seems plausible though. Trust me, I am trying all I can to fly often...I have the will... but I am not sure the way is very clear :)
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Believe it or not, the majority of my first 15 hours were at night, because it was after work, in January, in Chicago... :) those flight are great memories.

Night is still VFR as long as you have the visibility. If the terrain is unlit, however, you'd better be prepared to use the instruments. (See JFK jr crash discussions...)
 
joeparrilla said:
I am frequently reading peoples claims about GA, and have read a lot of extreme statements about the inevitable collapse of GA. I have even read comments where people expect to see a near complete collapse of the industry in the coming decade... due to the aging pilot community and closing of airports.
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What did we all do to hear ranting and hyperbole before the Internet? The flip side to everyone on the planet getting their chance to publish their thoughts is that most peoples' thoughts aren't worth knowing. Unfortunately, it's often tough to tell the opinions of people who know what they're talking about from those who haven't the slightest clue -- and both groups can still be dear wrong. There were dire predictions about how no one would buy cars once gas prices topped a buck a gallon, too. I'm pretty sure my grandkids will be flying after I'm gone.

Get off the message boards and into the plane. :)
 
joeparrilla said:
I actually had some questions about night flights.. are they an option during PPL training. Night is officially not VFR right? What is the deal with that?

Also, I really want to fly both Saturday and Sunday.. but it seems as though no instructors work both weekend days.. and my school wants you to stay with one instructor all the time. So it really isnt possible to fly on both days. Two in one day seems plausible though. Trust me, I am trying all I can to fly often...I have the will... but I am not sure the way is very clear :)
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Night can most definitely be VFR and there is nothing wrong with training at night.
 
joeparrilla said:
:
It is easily the biggest time/money commitment I have ever made in my short 23 years of life. So naturally my mind is constantly worrying. Not to mention constantly being bugged by others who question me and wonder why I would spend so much cash on this.
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I am your age, and I still regret not starting when I was 17 or 18. Enjoy it while you can, though I don't think GA is going anywhere it is just evolving. If you love it, you won't regret spending the money on it. Besides, do it now when you don't have kids to take care of. :)
 
I had the same reservations when I was looking to get back into flying. This is a post I made on another board back in 2008... Today, I'm within 4 hrs of finishing up and, honestly, I realized it was something I'd always regret not finishing regardless of if I ever flew after getting my license. So, I said to heck with it and started flying again (albeit with less than an enthusiastic blessing from the wife, but whatcha gonna do - marriage counseling isn't too expensive when you're used to paying $100+/hr to rent planes!). ;)

For me - value was a motivating factor as well and unfortunately, it's never going to be cheaper than it is right now, or than it was yesterday.

Me said:
Recently, I've been seriously considering finishing my PPL that I started about 10 years ago. It's always been a dream of mine to be a pilot but now, I'm at a crossroads where I just don't know how practical holding a license is anymore. I feel like I'm losing a grip on my dream to fly. Let me explain...

I've been an aviation enthusiast and airplane fanatic since I was 16. About 10 years ago as a senior in high school, I started working toward my PPL but only logged 12.1 hours before finances and time both ran short. During that time in my life, my priorities shifted and while I still loved airplanes, completing my training took a back seat. Time passed and while I entertained the idea of finishing my training several times over the ensuing years, I never took the leap. My logbook still shows those original 12.1 hours logged in 1998.

Now at 28, I can honestly say that I deeply regret my decision to not finish my training when I had the luxury of time and youth. I've managed to stay involved in aviation in one way or another over the years. Flight simulation and virtual air traffic control became my aviation "fix" and since my last logbook entry, I've logged close to 4,500 *simulated* hours (what some would call "a misspent youth!"). The flying bug has always been there though; it never really went away and even today I often find myself craning my head skyward at the sound of an engine above.

Last year, a new variable became part of my decision-making process when I married the woman of my dreams. Now, understand that I love my wife immensely and that she is an extremely understanding, supportive and incredibly loving person (and many years ago, logged 30+ hours of flight time herself). Recently, I expressed my desire to start PPL lessons again and explained to her that I would really like to finish what I started all of those years ago. Unfortunately the idea was met with significantly less enthusiasm than I had hoped. She expressed that she felt that flying recreational doesn't mix with being a responsible family man. In her opinion, by choosing to fly I'm risking my life and redirecting family resources in both time and money that could be better used 1) when we have children and 2) when we retire.

She adds that with the current state of the economy, the ever-increasing cost of flying, and ballooning fuel prices, recreational flying is just not practical anymore. Honestly, I share her concern in that respect. I see flying becoming more and more expensive and the fact that I already fight opposition to the idea makes me think that it is time to throw in the towel and give up on ever completing my PPL. For me, flying will never be a career both because I enjoy my quality of life now and have no desire to leave it for a shiny new regional jet and because I also know that my wife would not allow it.

So, my question is what next? Is becoming a recreational pilot in this "new economy" really worth it? Is there any end to the ever-increasing expense, or am I just misperceiving it? Can anyone who has faced similar opposition to flying from their mate before pass along any wisdom for me? Your help is much appreciated.
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V1-Vr-V2 said:
Now at 28, I can honestly say that I deeply regret my decision to not finish my training when I had the luxury of time and youth.
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So now you're, what, 33? Dude... that IS youth. Enjoy.

Signed,
Someone who couldn't afford to fly at 33!
 
Just do it man! Or you'll regret NOT doing it, for the rest of your life.

I was 33 by the time I got my PPL. It was a childhood dream come true. I worked around the clock and weekends, sometimes seven days in a row (still do).
I had to take lessons whenever I could, plus I was married with three young kids. It took me a little over a year to finish.

Then I flew for a few years then had to hang it up for ten. Not knowing if I'd ever fly again bothered me but I had zero regrets for spending the time and money (~$8000) to become a pilot.

Two years ago I got back into the cockpit and I'm having a ball. Still renting though. (Son and daughter in college and my other daughter graduated a few years ago).

I told them they better get together and buy me a plane one day, for all my sacrifice :lol:
 
It's somewhat interesting to note that people readily accept the fact that more than 1,000 of "the greatest generation" veterans are passing each day but have trouble believing that the pilot population will shrink by ~50% by 2025.

The total impact that the plunge in numbers will bring about is impossible to predict, but the shrinking number of participants and supporters of the activity can't be construed as encouraging news.
 
No, not particularly encouraging, but it also doesn't mean GA is going to disappear and become illegal by government mandate either which is the concern the OP was expressing. It's going to get more expensive, and as the income disparity in this country increases to grow and more and more of the wealth is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands less and less people will be able to afford "middle class" GA, it will likely drive out those who don't have a true passion for aviation while the BBJs and private 777s and A-380 markets will grow as will the Pt -103 Ultralight markets. For people with the passion to fly, they will find a way.
 
Henning said:
No, not particularly encouraging, but it also doesn't mean GA is going to disappear and become illegal by government mandate either which is the concern the OP was expressing. It's going to get more expensive, and as the income disparity in this country increases to grow and more and more of the wealth is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands less and less people will be able to afford "middle class" GA, it will likely drive out those who don't have a true passion for aviation while the BBJs and private 777s and A-380 markets will grow as will the Pt -103 Ultralight markets. For people with the passion to fly, they will find a way.
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Yes, my concern was more about a total shut down. If it gets more expensive, I can try to do what I can until it becomes to much.. and then switch to something cheaper (ULA or the like). Just knowing that I have the option to do it is enough to me. I can accept that flying a regular light aircraft may very well go beyond my means at some point... but hopefully I can find a good alternative by then.
 
Have you been counting the losses?
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Are you quitting, Wayne :) ?

Seriously, there are a lot of losses. You can argue all you want, but look at the numbers. That being said, there is a helicopter training facility at my home airport. They are really busy, training GI's who have government money available. Maybe things are just going to be different, not gone.
 
I've never thought GA would go away, but pilots accounted for less than 2% of the population prior to the predicted down-turn, while than 13% had fantasy FB teams. How low can it go?

somorris said:
Are you quitting, Wayne :) ?

Seriously, there are a lot of losses. You can argue all you want, but look at the numbers. That being said, there is a helicopter training facility at my home airport. They are really busy, training GI's who have government money available. Maybe things are just going to be different, not gone.
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It'd be nice if it were more accessible to more people, but as long as GA exists I'll be flying! I'm happy I have the opportunity to do it now and experience flying!
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There you go. Despite what some people seem to think (by the way they act), we only get one turn.
 
joeparrilla said:
I considered the sport route, but figured the total PPL would be a better choice. Its costing me more time and money, but I always felt like if I went sport I would wish I had the gone all the way.

But yes, I think $1200 a month is reasonable for me to spend. Sure I would have to cut out some other luxuries, but that is expected. Its actually really awesome to know that my budget is enough to have some fun. I always thought aviation was reserved for the rich, which I am very far from being.
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IMO - $1200 a month is a bit on the high side. After you finish training, using the standard of 50 hours a year (once a week) would only be $625/month at $150/hr aircraft rental. Join a club (or find a cheaper airplane to fly) and you could probably take that closer to $500 a month... that's a car payment for a lot of people.
 
joeparrilla said:
I considered the sport route, but figured the total PPL would be a better choice. Its costing me more time and money, but I always felt like if I went sport I would wish I had the gone all the way.

But yes, I think $1200 a month is reasonable for me to spend. Sure I would have to cut out some other luxuries, but that is expected. Its actually really awesome to know that my budget is enough to have some fun. I always thought aviation was reserved for the rich, which I am very far from being.
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I think most of us end up cutting back on other luxuries to some degree with our flying. Our newest car is 10 years old, for instance. As with everything else in life, it's a trade-off and a question of what you want to spend your money on.

You can easily spend under $1200/month, though, as others have pointed out. Ultimately you need to decide which route is best for you. Personally, if I didn't have a need/want for a twin and the space I'd look very hard at the experimental offerings. I'd love to be able to burn pump gas and buy parts from AutoZone - er AviationZone.
 
Sam D said:
JoeP -- Welcome to POA.

I have a little different perspective. Do you like flying? Is the expense worth it to you to go flying? All that money you pay towards getting your ticket goes toward...getting you up in the air.

The really neat thing about flying is that you get immediate bang for your buck. I've never paid for an hour of flight time and felt that it wasn't worth it.

If GA were to die tomorrow, sure I would be quite bummed, but I wouldn't feel like I wasted a dime of the money I've put toward it.
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I stopped reading at this post because this sums up what I think.

Even if GA were to die and you couldn't fly(unlikely), you've still recieved flight time for your money.

For me, being in the air is a joy everytime I take off. To me, it's money very well spent.

Don't let fears of the future deter you from doing something you want to do because if you do, you may very well end up with regrets that you didn't.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone, you guys are really great.

Awesome to know that I can even lower my budget for flying... or most likely just fly more :)

My first flight is this Sunday.. any advice for me? I am training in an AMD Alarus FYI.
 
joeparrilla said:
Thanks for the replies everyone, you guys are really great.

Awesome to know that I can even lower my budget for flying... or most likely just fly more :)

My first flight is this Sunday.. any advice for me? I am training in an AMD Alarus FYI.
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Learn to use the trim to get the plane to fly itself. Every time you change power or speed, you should retrim, this includes landings. You should never need more than two fingers on the controls. Any time you need to hold pressure, you need to trim. Trim, trim, trim.
 
Henning said:
Learn to use the trim to get the plane to fly itself. Every time you change power or speed, you should retrim, this includes landings. You should never need more than two fingers on the controls. Any time you need to hold pressure, you need to trim. Trim, trim, trim.
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Agreed. I was not taught to trim the plane well enough during my PPL traing and it would have helped me more if I had gotten better practice at this.
 
Well guys until new aircraft become much more affordable and the old guard realizes in order to stay alive the more general masses need to get involved GA is going to decline and eventually could die. In order to grow in any endeavor the youth of today need to get involved and need to see flying planes as "cool" and something attainable. As of now most young people just cannot see a 1950's C172 as something they want to get in and learn to fly. Furthermore most adults would rather spend that ton of cash on a premium level car that can be used daily instead of an old aircraft that might be used twice a month.
 
LJS1993 said:
Well guys until new aircraft become much more affordable and the old guard realizes in order to stay alive the more general masses need to get involved GA is going to decline and eventually could die. In order to grow in any endeavor the youth of today need to get involved and need to see flying planes as "cool" and something attainable. As of now most young people just cannot see a 1950's C172 as something they want to get in and learn to fly. Furthermore most adults would rather spend that ton of cash on a premium level car that can be used daily instead of an old aircraft that might be used twice a month.
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Again, what exactly is "die"? I mean lets say the interested party decreases to an all time low. What does it take for me to take my plane to an airstrip and take off? Does die mean every single aircraft company closes (LA, ULA, etc), and airports completely stop allowing anything but commercial flights to take off? Even if I am the only guy in the world who still flies and I have some airplane in a hangar... what would stop me from flying it? I get the idea of the industry dying... but how does the idea die? As long as someone wants to fly, isnt that enough?
 
Were you required to spend time on the mountaintop and tote the tablets down to rediscover these truths?:D

LJS1993 said:
Well guys until new aircraft become much more affordable and the old guard realizes in order to stay alive the more general masses need to get involved GA is going to decline and eventually could die. In order to grow in any endeavor the youth of today need to get involved and need to see flying planes as "cool" and something attainable. As of now most young people just cannot see a 1950's C172 as something they want to get in and learn to fly. Furthermore most adults would rather spend that ton of cash on a premium level car that can be used daily instead of an old aircraft that might be used twice a month.
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wabower said:
Were you required to spend time on the mountaintop and tote the tablets down to rediscover these truths?:D
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I'm just giving my opinion from a perspective of a guy from the outside looking in which at times can be refreshing. Keep in mind it's a very humble opinion and I could be wrong.
 
LJS1993 said:
I'm just giving my opinion from a perspective of a guy from the outside looking in which at times can be refreshing. Keep in mind it's a very humble opinion and I could be wrong.
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Aviation is like every other drug, even if you make it illegal and expensive, addicts will find a way to fly.:D
 
Interesting. I am also a software engineer.
I see there are a few of us here.

I am hoping to take my checkride in a couple weeks and I echo what some others have said. I will fly whatever I am allowed to fly and If I can no longer fly, at least I got to do it back when it was allowed.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Interesting. I am also a software engineer.
I see there are a few of us here.

I am hoping to take my checkride in a couple weeks and I echo what some others have said. I will fly whatever I am allowed to fly and If I can no longer fly, at least I got to do it back when it was allowed.
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I've found that a HUGE percentage of pilots are usually involved in IT, or at least some kind of engineering.
 
joeparrilla said:
Again, what exactly is "die"? I mean lets say the interested party decreases to an all time low. What does it take for me to take my plane to an airstrip and take off? Does die mean every single aircraft company closes (LA, ULA, etc), and airports completely stop allowing anything but commercial flights to take off? Even if I am the only guy in the world who still flies and I have some airplane in a hangar... what would stop me from flying it? I get the idea of the industry dying... but how does the idea die? As long as someone wants to fly, isnt that enough?
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Well Joe by dying I mean becoming so regulated, expensive, and basically only attainable by a select few it will shrink even further then it has already. Trust me I hope that never happens and hope general aviation becomes more accessible and thrives further down the road. But unless that happens the industry and yes the thought of flying for fun will only definitely shrink. :dunno:
 
The model currently in place in Europe is instructive insofar as how things might change here, not because it's a likely outcome but because it's so different from the way we do it now.

joeparrilla said:
Again, what exactly is "die"? I mean lets say the interested party decreases to an all time low. What does it take for me to take my plane to an airstrip and take off? Does die mean every single aircraft company closes (LA, ULA, etc), and airports completely stop allowing anything but commercial flights to take off? Even if I am the only guy in the world who still flies and I have some airplane in a hangar... what would stop me from flying it? I get the idea of the industry dying... but how does the idea die? As long as someone wants to fly, isnt that enough?
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wabower said:
The model currently in place in Europe is instructive insofar as how things might change here, not because it's a likely outcome but because it's so different from the way we do it now.
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How limited is the European GA system? Is it inaccessible to the middle class? What exactly is the difference?
 
LJS1993 said:
Well Joe by dying I mean becoming so regulated, expensive, and basically only attainable by a select few it will shrink even further then it has already. Trust me I hope that never happens and hope general aviation becomes more accessible and thrives further down the road. But unless that happens the industry and yes the thought of flying for fun will only definitely shrink. :dunno:
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I see. Well Hopefully it doesnt happen... or at least happens really slowly and takes a long time :) Im 23, so if I can at least fly for 10 years I guess Id be happy. Maybe I could find another way to get the aviator in me out after that...

If this was to happen, based on the trends of late.. how long would you guess it would take? Are we talking a decade? A generation?
 
joeparrilla said:
How limited is the European GA system? Is it inaccessible to the middle class? What exactly is the difference?
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No, my cousin flys and she is middle class. Fuel is more expensive and Light Sport planes are more prevalent although most airports you still see the same mix of planes you'll typically see here as well. You pay fees at most airports and if you go IFR, fees are weighted by gross weight. Airspace is still quite open, I never have problems flying where I want to go. There's a lot more flying club and glider activity percentage wise.
 
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