New plane and spring break trip to Cali in April.

J

Jthamilton

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Hope to pick up the new for me Saratoga II tc this next week. I promised kiddos we would fly somewhere to see Shamu. Instead of San Antonio, it looks like San Diego is on the wish list. I would like to take the kids to Universal studios and do a few things around there. I, sure we will spend most of our time up around that area.

My question is where would you all recommend to land that could be in between? I would like to see chino also and wonder if this is good option. I'm working on my IFR but will still be VFR for this trip.
 
Jthamilton said:
Hope to pick up the new for me Saratoga II tc this next week. I promised kiddos we would fly somewhere to see Shamu. Instead of San Antonio, it looks like San Diego is on the wish list. I would like to take the kids to Universal studios and do a few things around there. I, sure we will spend most of our time up around that area.

My question is where would you all recommend to land that could be in between? I would like to see chino also and wonder if this is good option. I'm working on my IFR but will still be VFR for this trip.
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Sedona AZ is a nice stop.
 
You'll go right by Moab UT. Can see the parks, and depending on the ages of the kids go on a mountain biking or rafting trip.

After that you go right over the Grand Canyon. If you haven't been there before, that would be my first choice. Easy access from GCN airport to the south rim, with places to stay within walking distance of your plane.

Further down is the Palm Springs area, and April is a nice time there. Lots to do.

Jon
 
Chino has great fuel price for LA. Flying Tigers self serve.

If you're going to Universal, you could fly into Burbank, Van Nuys or Whiteman. They're all three pretty close.
 
Jthamilton said:
Hope to pick up the new for me Saratoga II tc this next week. I promised kiddos we would fly somewhere to see Shamu. Instead of San Antonio, it looks like San Diego is on the wish list. I would like to take the kids to Universal studios and do a few things around there. I, sure we will spend most of our time up around that area.



My question is where would you all recommend to land that could be in between? I would like to see chino also and wonder if this is good option. I'm working on my IFR but will still be VFR for this trip.
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Where are you picking up the plane?
 
Toga is in Burlington, Iowa. I guess I should have clarified my request better. All those listed are on my short list of places to take the clan the next few months BUT, I really am curious about areas between I guess northern LA and San Diego where I could park the plane for the week and get rental car. Looks like pretty busy area.
 
My 9 year old daughter is just killing me about flying to the 4 corners, especially since I didn't take her there this fall.
 
Jthamilton said:
Toga is in Burlington, Iowa. I guess I should have clarified my request better. All those listed are on my short list of places to take the clan the next few months BUT, I really am curious about areas between I guess northern LA and San Diego where I could park the plane for the week and get rental car. Looks like pretty busy area.
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Parking in SD is probably best at Montgomery Field.
 
BTW, I wouldn't 'park in the middle' When you want to be in N.LA, fly into N.LA, when you want to be in SD, fly down to SD. The greatest benefit to having a plane in SoCAL is you get to avoid the traffic. When I lived there, if the drive was further than Long Beach Airport, I took my plane.
 
Jthamilton said:
Toga is in Burlington, Iowa. I guess I should have clarified my request better. All those listed are on my short list of places to take the clan the next few months BUT, I really am curious about areas between I guess northern LA and San Diego where I could park the plane for the week and get rental car. Looks like pretty busy area.
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Ok... You are taking delivery in IA. Are you a CA resident? Will you be bringing the airplane to the state of California permanently? Or are you just planning on visiting southern CA after you buy the airplane?
 
Jthamilton said:
Colorado resident, planning on visiting with family.
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First thing you need to know is that if the airplane shows up ANYWHERE in the state of California within 12 months of purchase, you WILL be subject to the CA use tax which is around 8% or so of the purchase price. This is regardless of any tax you might pay elsewhere or your residency and permanent home of the airplane after the sale.

The CA Board of Equalization is ruthless at enforcing this. You might not even get the bill until several years later, but they will come after you. The CA BOE is infamous at this sort of thing - they have folks that scour fuel receipts, FBO ramp records, ATC records...etc and compare that data against FAA registrations.

Not trying to be a party pooper, but the use tax on a Saratoga II TC is probably not small. If you don't believe me, PLEASE do yourself a favor and call an aviation tax professional familiar with CA use tax.

I used to live in San Diego and have purchased two airplanes there, so I am familiar with the CA use tax.

Congrats on the airplane by the way!
 
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Fearless Tower said:
First thing you need to know is that if the airplane shows up ANYWHERE in the state of California within 12 months of purchase, you WILL be subject to the CA use tax which is around 8% or so of the purchase price. This is regardless of any tax you might pay elsewhere or your residency and permanent home of the airplane after the sale.

The CA Board of Equalization is ruthless at enforcing this. You might not even get the bill until several years later, but they will come after you. The CA BOE is infamous at this sort of thing - they have folks that scour fuel receipts, FBO ramp records, ATC records...etc and compare that data against FAA registrations.

Not trying to be a party pooper, but the use tax on a Saratoga II TC is probably not small. If you don't believe me, PLEASE do yourself a favor and call an aviation tax professional familiar with CA use tax.

I used to live in San Diego and have purchased two airplanes there, so I am familiar with the CA use tax.

Congrats on the airplane by the way!
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So let me get this straight. I could be taxed around 20k just for visiting california the first year?
 
If i pay it do i get free hotel and passes to all the parks?
If anyone else did that i would say thats the dumbest f****** thing I've ever heard of. However California is no surprise! Guess i will spend my money elsewhere this year. What a shame!
 
Fearless Tower said:
First thing you need to know is that if the airplane shows up ANYWHERE in the state of California within 12 months of purchase, you WILL be subject to the CA use tax which is around 8% or so of the purchase price. This is regardless of any tax you might pay elsewhere or your residency and permanent home of the airplane after the sale.

The CA Board of Equalization is ruthless at enforcing this. You might not even get the bill until several years later, but they will come after you. The CA BOE is infamous at this sort of thing - they have folks that scour fuel receipts, FBO ramp records, ATC records...etc and compare that data against FAA registrations.

Not trying to be a party pooper, but the use tax on a Saratoga II TC is probably not small. If you don't believe me, PLEASE do yourself a favor and call an aviation tax professional familiar with CA use tax.

I used to live in San Diego and have purchased two airplanes there, so I am familiar with the CA use tax.

Congrats on the airplane by the way!
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WOW - Thanks for the heads up. I was going to do the same thing this year with my New to Me Toga.

Florida use to have this tax law but changed it years ago.

I wonder what other states have this "TAX GRAB"?
 
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Let's ask the forum members out there about if this tax law is in any other states.
 
I'm going to call BS on Calif taxing a transient in the first 12 months of plane ownership.

Something's just don't pass the smell test, this is one of them.
 
The posters are correct that it is possible you may erroneously get a bill from the state of CA (if you park for a long time or visit frequently so they think you've been there a long time) that takes more time than it should to clear up. Odds are you will not, and many many people have successfully visited California without a problem. I would not consider this a reason not to go.
Jon
 
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The BOE are insane, and there have been instances where they've done what Fearless mentioned, but I wouldn't call it standard procedure. They came after me when my previous plane was registered in Nevada, but I managed to show them that my plane was actually not worth anything considering the engines were over TBO and of a very expensive type to overhaul. They dropped the claim. They have inspectors writing down tail numbers at airports and that's how they'd spotted mine sitting at EMT. As I recall, March and April is the month when they tend to hang around airports. Vile behaviour and I just can't see how this could be allowed. But I wouldn't be overly worried for a quick trip.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I'm going to call BS on Calif taxing a transient in the first 12 months of plane ownership.

Something's just don't pass the smell test, this is one of them.
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If you don't believe me, look up the CA use tax on Google and call any aviation tax professional. They will confirm.
 
Payson az has fuel at $3.00 gal. They r switching out there tanks
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you don't believe me, look up the CA use tax on Google and call any aviation tax professional. They will confirm.
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OK. Here is what I found.

http://aircrafttax.com/library/sales-and-use-tax/california-use-tax-exemptions/

When an aircraft is purchased outside of California and is brought into California within 12 months from the date of its purchase, it is rebuttably presumed that the aircraft was acquired for use in this state, and is subject to use tax, if any of the following occur:

The aircraft is purchased by a California resident.

The aircraft is subject to property tax in California during the first 12 months of ownership.

The aircraft is used or stored in California more than one-half of the time during the first 12 months of ownership.
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According to the last statement the aircraft would need to be in California for 6 months cumulatively. The other two provisions wouldn't apply.

Also from this site.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/appndxa/revtax/rvtax6248.htm

6248. (a) There shall be a rebuttable presumption that any vehicle, vessel, or aircraft bought outside of this state on or after the effective date of this section, and which is brought into California within 12 months from the date of its purchase, was acquired for storage, use, or other consumption in this state and is subject to use tax if any of the following occurs:

>snip<

(4) If purchased by a nonresident of California, the vehicle, vessel, or aircraft is used or stored in this state more than one-half of the time during the first 12 months of ownership.
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Since they are lumping vehicles and aircraft together it would seem that a car brought into California for a short visit within 12 months of purchase by a non-resident would be subject to the tax according to what you state and that's clearly not true. I have done it, in fact.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
If you don't believe me, look up the CA use tax on Google and call any aviation tax professional. They will confirm.
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How about just giving me a credible link?

You really think they are going to look up an aircraft that is spotted in Calif and find the registered owner is in Colorado and there is no record of the owner being a resident of Calif, and just start sending tax bills?

I am pretty sure that ain't happening, on purpose.
 
JoseCuervo said:
You really think they are going to look up an aircraft that is spotted in Calif and find the registered owner is in Colorado and there is no record of the owner being a resident of Calif, and just start sending tax bills?

I am pretty sure that ain't happening, on purpose.
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Yes, they have. It isn't that hard. They get the FAA records and throw them in a database with all the fuel and airport records that they can get their hands on. Let the search function do its thing and voila - they send out the bill. When you consider all the jet-setting crowd that flies all over the country, there is big tax money to be had. They might not spend the effort to go after somebody who paid $30k for an aging 172, but if I was spending the money that the OP is, I sure wouldn't want to chance it.

The problem is (and why the tax folks will advise against it) is that even if you might have a case (meet one of the loopholes), the cost you will need to pay a tax pro to fight it is going to result in a pyrrhic victory even if you are successful. A phone call now is free. It costs you money to retain the tax people to fight it if you do get the bill.

AFAIK, no other state does this, but CA is unique. And the fact that the state of CA is in such dire straits financially means that they are getting even more crazy with tracking down anyone they can shake money out of. I lived in CA until 2012 and watched CA step up the tax hunts considerably in the last year or two I was there. The state is not healthy.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes, they have. It isn't that hard. They get the FAA records and throw them in a database with all the fuel and airport records that they can get their hands on. Let the search function do its thing and voila - they send out the bill. When you consider all the jet-setting crowd that flies all over the country, there is big tax money to be had. They might not spend the effort to go after somebody who paid $30k for an aging 172, but if I was spending the money that the OP is, I sure wouldn't want to chance it.

The problem is (and why the tax folks will advise against it) is that even if you might have a case (meet one of the loopholes), the cost you will need to pay a tax pro to fight it is going to result in a pyrrhic victory even if you are successful. A phone call now is free. It costs you money to retain the tax people to fight it if you do get the bill.

AFAIK, no other state does this, but CA is unique. And the fact that the state of CA is in such dire straits financially means that they are getting even more crazy with tracking down anyone they can shake money out of. I lived in CA until 2012 and watched CA step up the tax hunts considerably in the last year or two I was there. The state is not healthy.
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And all that directly conflicts with what was cut and pasted from Calif's actual Code, as cut and pasted above. There is no way Calif is going to be taxing tourists in Saratogas on their way to Disneyland.

What are these "fuel records"? Who maintains that database?
 
JoseCuervo said:
And all that directly conflicts with what was cut and pasted from Calif's actual Code, as cut and pasted above. There is no way Calif is going to be taxing tourists in Saratogas on their way to Disneyland.

What are these "fuel records"? Who maintains that database?
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You don't think CA would like an extra $20k (what the OP said his 8% would be)?

The fuel records are the receipts. CA gets them because CA gets tax on the sale. Just about every AVGAS receipt has an N-number on it.

Look man, you can argue all you want. I've got no skin in this game, just played the CA aircraft tax game a few times myself as both resident and non-resident. I get nothing whether the OP goes to CA or not.

All I'm trying to do is save the OP some money, and IF he really wants to do this trip, call a tax professional familiar with CA aircraft use tax and see what they say. The phone call is free, and a lot more useful anything you or I might have to say on the subject.
 
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I do appreciate the concern my friend.

As luck would have it I just got off phone with old heli pilot when I was flight medic 20 years ago. We were good friends and last time I saw him was 18 years ago at my wedding. He lives over by Long Beach and is retired. I gotta try this flying to Cali just to see an old friend. Learned today that 2 others I worked with, great Vietnam vets have passed within last 3 months. So I need to make up for some lost time. But I sure wont be heading west that often!
 
Fearless Tower said:
You don't think CA would like an extra $20k (what the OP said his 8% would be)?

The fuel records are the receipts. CA gets them because CA gets tax on the sale. Just about every AVGAS receipt has an N-number on it.

Look man, you can argue all you want. I've got no skin in this game, just played the CA aircraft tax game a few times myself as both resident and non-resident. I get nothing whether the OP goes to CA or not.

All I'm trying to do is save the OP some money, and IF he really wants to do this trip, call a tax professional familiar with CA aircraft use tax and see what they say. The phone call is free, and a lot more useful anything you or I might have to say on the subject.
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I am an aircraft owner and an aviation attorney in California. The OP has nothing to worry about. The state will not go after him if the aircraft is not registered in California and it is not based here. They primarily que off the registration and the aircraft that are based at their airport. He will get a bill if he rents a hangar and parks the plane there. As a transient, he is extraordinarily unlikely to hear from the state.

If the OP is concerned, he should call AOPA first.
 
Jthamilton said:
I do appreciate the concern my friend.

As luck would have it I just got off phone with old heli pilot when I was flight medic 20 years ago. We were good friends and last time I saw him was 18 years ago at my wedding. He lives over by Long Beach and is retired. I gotta try this flying to Cali just to see an old friend. Learned today that 2 others I worked with, great Vietnam vets have passed within last 3 months. So I need to make up for some lost time. But I sure wont be heading west that often!
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See my previous about the tax situation.

California freeways are nuts. If you really want to park the plane and drive, I recommend Riverside. Enterprise will drop a car at the FBO or pick you up. You can go down I-15 to San Diego or I-10 into LA. The worst traffic is I-5 which is the direct route between the two and is a nightmare most of the time. Riverside is pretty easy to get in and out of VFR without too much to worry about airspace-wise. Either talk to SoCal Approach or just maneuver to avoid the Class C at March airbase to the southeast. If you are comfortable with crowded airspace, than Burbank, Van Nuys, or perhaps El Monte makes sense.

I hate Socal traffic, so I would fly between LA and SD, but that comes down to your comfort. Riverside is east of the LA Class B, by a long way, so that isn't a problem. He can fly south out of Riverside and head down the inland route the SD. You have to either get clearance or skirt the SD Class B to the east. Either land at El Cajon (Gillespie Field) or go over the top of their Class D and go over the ridgeline to the west to get into Montgomery. Actually, if you are comfortable talking to ATC, I would go for the big airport. Lindbergh his actually pretty friendly and not difficult to get into with ATC. That airport is very close to everything.
 
Kristin said:
I am an aircraft owner and an aviation attorney in California. The OP has nothing to worry about. The state will not go after him if the aircraft is not registered in California and it is not based here. They primarily que off the registration and the aircraft that are based at their airport. He will get a bill if he rents a hangar and parks the plane there. As a transient, he is extraordinarily unlikely to hear from the state.

If the OP is concerned, he should call AOPA first.
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Kristin, If what you are saying is correct, it completely contradicts what I was told over the phone on 3 occasions with these folks:
http://aeromarinetaxpros.com/
 
Fearless Tower said:
Kristin, If what you are saying is correct, it completely contradicts what I was told over the phone on 3 occasions with these folks:
http://aeromarinetaxpros.com/
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They should be more qualified than I am as I don't exclusively specialize in tax matters, but I also don't know exactly what question they were answering or in what manner they answered it, so i can't really comment.

The OP is not a resident of the state of California and I am assuming he is not going to register it in California. So why would he even come to the attention of California tax authorities? I am aware of no program of surveillance at airports to track N numbers and I chair our local airport commission so I am sure that I would know if there was such. If they were somehow getting data from all the credit card issuers, AOPA would be up in arms, so I am pretty sure that is not happening. So I am pretty sure that the state is not going to know if the aircraft is actually ever in the state, unless you rent a hangar or something to bring yourself to the attention of the local tax authorities.

Once a year, the airport will notify the state of aircraft that are based there or parked there long term. It is possible that some clerk at the airport at some time has sent in the N number of an aircraft that was just visiting. If that happened, you might get a letter. Write back and tell them that the aircraft is not based in California and the owner is not a resident and that the aircraft has only visited the state. That rebuts any presumption of residency.
 
After lounging a little this morning I've done little research and like the KSAN for first stop. Fuel darn pricy but I wouldn't fill her up there anyway. I trained in class c with extremely busy class d airport adjacent to it so little radio traffic would be good to brush up on.

Latter part of week I think taking the family up to riverside of John Wayne looks tempting. It seems either way with flight following SoCal is gonna direct me frequency wise and around whatever I need to avoid. Of course I would give wide berth to the military areas.
 
Kristin said:
If they were somehow getting data from all the credit card issuers, AOPA would be up in arms, so I am pretty sure that is not happening.
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Not to mention NBAA. They would be warning their members about this since the value of the aircraft flown are much higher. Yet I have never heard a word about it until this thread. Looking back, I flew an aircraft which had been purchased less than 12 months prior into California, stayed for 3 days and never heard a word about it being taxed.
 
Henning said:
Ahhh, you mean the people who make their living off of scaring people into using their service?
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Perhaps, but in fairness to them, the result of three separate consultations that cost me nothing, the end result was them telling me 'if you keep the airplane out of CA for a year, you won't need to pay us anything'.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
How was the fishing?
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It was fun. Wrong time of year for trout in Sedona, they begin stocking again in April or March. We drove 20 minutes outside of town and fished for the elusive, prized "Round Tailed Chub"

I was skeptical but the Arizonian Round Tailed Chub turned out to be a great gamefish. 16-18" and fought hard! I caught a bunch of them. My brother got his first fish on the fly too, having never picked up a fly rod before. Our guide had him making a decent cast in about an hour.

We took them on streamers at first, then late the afternoon they began surface feeding. Switched to dry flies and hooked up a few more fish.
 

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