New pilot considering ownership

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by GSDpilot, Oct 2, 2019.

Tags:
?

Have you regretted airplane ownership?

  1. Best choice ever

  2. It's ok. I fly some, but not as much as I planned when I bought.

  3. Wish I wouldn't have done it

  4. Absolute disaster (unexpected costs, don't fly it, etc.)

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. GSDpilot

    GSDpilot Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2019
    Messages:
    30
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GSDpilot
    New pilot, first post. Trying to decide between just renting for a bit, or biting off a purchase. My goal is to build time and get my instrument rating. I want to fly it for 2 years (150-200 hours) to see if I want something bigger (or sell because of limited use or unexpected costs). Would like to get a SR20 or most likely a C182 to learn on, something with good avionics and less than 500 hours on engine. Budget is $135k. I am 40 years old, with a wife and 2 kids under 6. Initially it will be me and my 90lb German Shepherd in the plane.

    I am talking myself into this, but maybe that is ok. I also may be better off renting for a bit to see how much I fly and what type of aircraft fits my mission. I am scared of large unexpected costs (over $5k). Any advice from anybody that has been down this path with a good or bad experience? Bonus question- would a 90lb dog fit into the baggage door? I am worried about getting him in and out without injury or damage to plane. The dog is a big factor, as he goes everywhere with me. Another reason I am considering ownership over rental. Any advice is greatly appreciated!
     
  2. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,579
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    I think your model/hours requirement to budget may need some adjustment.
     
  3. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    28,226
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    If unexpected costs frighten you stick to renting.
     
  4. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,411
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    If you enjoy flying, and plan on flying quite a bit, especially to travel to places where you might want to leave the plane for a few days, then owning can make sense. Ownership is more about convenience that saving money. You won't save money by owning. It is important not to underestimate your budget. You are just beginning after purchase. There is maintenance, storage (hangar), and inevitably, avionics upgrades. Something on the order of 4X fuel is what it will cost to own and operate after purchase. More if your avionics are not up to par.

    You can buy a pretty nice plane for $135K, suitable for VFR time-building and IFR training, with a full fuel useful load for 2-4, but probably not a Cirrus. I'd figure on the purchase price paying for any necessary avionics and mechanical upgrades as well as the aircraft to make it suitable for your mission. There should be quite a few appropriate used aircraft in that price range. Whether or not you can (or should) put the dog through the baggage door depends on the make and model you choose. For any plane with a door a dog should be able to ingress through the door relatively easily.

    It might be a little clumsy in an AA-5X with a sliding canopy, but if your dog can hop over the sidewalls, the Grummans fold down into a cavernous cargo configuration with a large, flat compartment behind the front seats that would easily accommodate a dog or a pet crate.
     
    GSDpilot likes this.
  5. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,310
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Just get a REAL prebuy, should be the most intense inspection you ever put the plane through, like a super annual. Make sure you are in the plane right, watch the marker to figure a price and adjust that price based on the prebuy.

    Don’t be ham fisted, learn and take part in the mx, research and buy your own parts, get on the type groups online.

    I’ve had two planes, VERY happy.

    Also helps to not buy a 172 or PA28 or something you can rent anywhere, some of the people you are the happiest owners get plane you won’t see on the rental line.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
    GSDpilot and Sinistar like this.
  6. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2018
    Messages:
    1,061
    Location:
    Sunnyvale CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Crashnburn
    Rent for a while. See what you do 90 % of the time (or at least you want to do), then find a plane that fits that role. Rent for the other 10%. The breakeven rule of thumb is 100 hours a year. Also look at already flying Experimental Amateur Built (EAB) planes for your best aviation bang for the buck.
     
    GSDpilot likes this.
  7. Sinistar

    Sinistar En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,344
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    Let me start off with...I was 300% sure that I would like flying because I was around it enough to know. We purposely bought a fixed gear 182 so that I could learn in it and that the 4 of us (wife, daughter, dog and myself) could fly places together. So here is my advice:

    Figure out your medical. This is really, really important. The last thing you want to do is go through all the hassles of buying a plane and then find out you can't get a 3rd class medical. At the same time do not rush. If you have even a single question on the MedXpress form come back here. You can answer yes to just a thing or two and kill all hopes of flying.

    Find a way: be sure you want to fly enough to own. Get some rides. Find a couple of flight schools or FBO's. Find one with Archers or Cherokees. Find one with 172's or 150's. And find one with Diamond if you can. Get a log book. Get an hour in each and think about which one you find the most comfortable and would want to learn in. This might cost a bit over $200/hr for each light but it will be money very well spent.

    At this point you may be a little less sure about flying which should make you even less sure about ownership. If this is the case, spend the $7K-$12K and just rent and do your Private Pilot (PPL) lessons at the school with the plane and instructor that you liked.

    Okay you made it here...you are hooked and you want to buy and learn in your own plane. If you like low wings I would search out a Dakota/Pathfinder. Its fixed gear but 235HP and can haul everything you have listed. If you like high wings search out and find a older Cessna 182 (Skylane). For either, try and set you budget around $85K or less. Have at least $7K set aside for the first annual. These two planes are selling kind of high right now but they will also re-sell easily later on. You are just too new at this to buy a run motor so try find something with between 10%...50% of TBO. At this price range they won't have the best avionics but it will be good enough and you will have $$,$$$ to spare for upgrades. You just might like this plane enough that it will be your last plane. Since avionics are pretty important, favor the older plane with newer avionics if possible. If the avionics are old, then favor one that has been recently painted and/or interior upgraded...each of these categories are $$,$$$$. And you may be surprised that some of these 35-60yr old planes are still in darned good shape with less than 2000hrs and you just might be able to live with the 70's colors and interiors in favor of modern avionics :)

    When it comes time to buy you are going to need to have some beginning of a relationship with a A&P and you will need to figure out parking/hangar. The hangar thing can be a huge PITA. Your goal is to have great A&P that will look out for you on the pre-buy. Another option might be to use a broker. Not sure if they will play at these older ages and lower prices vs turbines and $500K planes.

    Often the first annual will run you between 4%...10% of the purchase price. So that is why I said budget $85K for the plane and another $7K for the first annual.

    You also need to find a instructor (CFI) that you will gel with and someone that will respect your plane. They are out there. Some really like sitting in a more spacious cabin (182) or like having the extra power and cruise speed of a Dakota. And both of these are great IFR platforms so you might continue on with that instructor (CFII) for your instrument rating.

    Then learn in your plane. Yes, the first lessons will beat it up a bit but the gear on 182's and Dakota's are solid. And you just might find a plane with less than 1500hrs that has hardly been broken in yet.

    Please note: training in your plane will not necessarily save you a ton of money. If a 172 rents wet for $150/hr you will chuckle and say my Dakota/Skylane only needs 11.5gph or about $65/hr to fly. But you should also put away about $30/hr for the motor rebuild fund and you are now at $100/hr and haven't talked insurance or hangar rental or financing fees.

    Dogs: Our 70lb golden retriever just jumps right in the plane. We never let him sit up front as a dog near the controls would be high risk (my opinion only) so he just curls up on the back seat or on the floor. I think he could jump into the Skylane baggage door but its a bit small. And he wouldn't want to be back there anyway. He is part of our crew and rides with us :)

    Good luck. You might like this flying thing even more than you can imagine. That old Skylane/Dakota might serve you well for years with no loans or big surprises. Or maybe you'll fly it 200hrs and upgrade to a super comfortable SR20 or something. You won't take much of a loss moving up from planes like those.

    I would think if you had time and could budget in a league more like $300K+ you would find a Cirrus and start there. Maybe that number could be smaller but just my opinion.

    Ask more questions. I suspect the consensus will be to get your PPL first and then become an owner. Most do it that way. Nothing wrong with that, especially knowing you won't really save that much anyway.

    Get out to those airports. Start talking to instructors, sitting in planes and learning more about this ridiculous addiction.
     
  8. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    4,117
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shawn
    Buy it...as long as you do not overpay you can always flip it and still be way ahead of rental prices.

    Budget can get you a well equipped 182...I bought my 182 post PPL and used same as you...built hours then IFR and now I would likely fly a fraction of what I do if I had to rent.

    While an engine can blow up any time, that is no reason to be scared of ownership. My highest Mx year was $3500 and low $1200...and that was with annual...plus hangar and insurance. I don't play the "cost per hour" amortization game as those are all fixed regardless of flight time. While it will almost always be cheaper to rent then buy...you are buying convince, availability, familiarity and the pride in ownership of your own plane vs a rental in who knows what condition.

    I am also a firm bellower in buy once, cry once and buy your second airplane first...not a "see what I will want" down the road holdover.

    Seems the 182 will fit your mission for quite a while. While I would love something sexier and faster like the SR-22, the usefully load and interior space if the 182 WELL makes up for the few times I wish I could go faster.

    The old adage applies here as well...better, faster, cheaper...pick two.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
    GSDpilot and James331 like this.
  9. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,274
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilot Lite
    My two 80lb Labs gladly enter my Tiger via the cargo door on the fuselage...they raise up to get their head and shoulders on board and I thereafter boost their hindquarters in. The dog accommodations are quite commodious.
     
    GSDpilot likes this.
  10. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,328
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WI Flyer
    I would start with renting, as long as you have options somewhat nearby. Any rentals would likely not want a dog in the plane. That goes double for a ‘German Shedder’.

    Overall plane ownership is like most any ‘discretionary’ hobby/spending. The total budget & family spending plan needs to be considered.
     
  11. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    6,595
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    How come there isn't an option in the poll for "all of the above"?
     
    GRG55 likes this.
  12. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,308
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Stick with a high wing like a 182 if the dog is coming along. Largish dogs and wingwalks are a bad combination. And if you are bringing the dog along all the time, stuffing it into baggage is not likely to prove what you really wanted, compared to the rear seat or rear floor area.

    With two kids under 6 assess how much flying you really have time for (beyond your lessons) at this stage in your life. If you plan to travel wth your wife and kids, great. Then owning something like a 182 could make sense.
     
    GSDpilot likes this.
  13. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    2,756
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NRG
    Why less than 500 hours on the engine if you are just going to flip it later? I bought mine with 1200 on it and it runs super well. Will probably get well past TBO on it. Of course any engine can grenade, but don't be afraid of mid-time engines. Price it in and feel better that it got way past infant mortality.
     
  14. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,292
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mryan75
    Or for "Join a flying club".

    My recommendation? Join a flying club.
     
  15. JCranford

    JCranford En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,557
    Location:
    North TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JCranford
    Join a flying club for a year. That will give you an idea of the unexpected costs associated with ownership. Dont try to stuff a 90lb GSD thru the baggage door of a 182. Let him ride in the back seat where he belongs. Both my dogs ride with me. I have to pick up the older 70lb APBT and put her in, but the young man just jumps up in. Both settle quickly and go to sleep.

    I will say, although I love my airplane, ownership stresses me out. Its the single biggest expense in my life currently.
     
    GSDpilot and mryan75 like this.
  16. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,715
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GeorgeC
    I have 2 kids under 8. I rented for the first little while, then joined a club, then bought.

    Rental: Very hard to schedule for any kind of real trip, but the airplane is someone else's problem, and if one plane is down for mx, there's usually another.

    Club: Nicer planes, easier scheduling, unplanned expenses have been rare and modest.

    Ownership: There's nothing like flying your own plane. That said, you're buying a commitment. The airplane will be down for mx. Large unplanned expenses have happened. Large planned expenses have happened too. In the grand scheme of things, they are a drop in the bucket compared to taxes/mortgage/childcare costs, but the uncertainty has a cost.

    If I had a do over, I would have looked at a club from the start. I think a 182 club would suit your needs well. With two little kids, there's not a lot of time to fly, but it's hard to put a price on hearing "daddy, I love flying with you" in the headset.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
    GSDpilot likes this.
  17. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    14,712
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Go the club route.
     
  18. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    8,413
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Considering buying a plane is a little like considering taking up a cocaine habit.
     
  19. idahoflier

    idahoflier Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,187
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    At this point you don't know what you don't know. I have been flying for 27 years and I'm still asking questions... Lots of good advice already given, I would recommend joining a club or renting at least through PPL and possibly Instrument rating if you're going to go for that. Good Luck, have fun!
     
  20. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    6,595
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    I wonder what your thoughts will be when it becomes "daddy, I'm taking the plane for the weekend" :)
     
    Passenger Lurk and GSDpilot like this.
  21. Jmcmanna

    Jmcmanna Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages:
    320
    Location:
    Southern WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jmcmanna
    I can’t vote because I have more than one choice. I bought my Arrow for $77,000 last October. It is easy and fun to fly, the gear goes up, and I can beat the airlines on 500 mile or shorter trips (in price and time). On the other hand, my 1300 SMOH engine needed to be OH’d less than 6 months after I bought it. I was not expecting that, and my $77,000 Arrow is now my $130,000 Arrow (I did buy a brand new prop and engine monitor to go with the reman engine). But as I was flying along above the clouds this morning, I couldn’t have been happier (plus I put 3.2 hours in the logbook for the cost of 24 gals of 100LL).

    If I could do it again, I probably wouldn’t have picked the same plane (knowing the engine was about to break), but I don’t regret owning the plane. My ultimate goal is an ATP rating with a little bit of fun along the way, so 8-9 gph and 120 knots is plenty for me.
     
    GSDpilot likes this.
  22. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    914
    Location:
    Aurora, IL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    charheep
    My input-
    Get half way through your PPL, then decide. That way you have your medical done, or should, and most of your bad landings done in someone elses plane. Then ask your instructor if you can bring your SO with one longish trip and see if she will really be a passenger. She may not like the experience, or she may want something nicer.



    My journey so far as one guys example-
    Lessons with a school plane
    quit for a few years due to a personality clash with the instructor
    joined a club and finished my PPL
    continued renting until they sold the one plane I was checked out in 2 days before I had a 4 day trip planned and booked. No recourse or attempt to make things right with me
    joined another club
    one of the 2 planes I was checked out in went down for 6 months due to a annual that turned into a new interior
    the other plane was a good training plane, so I was told to not do any overnights with it
    quit renting and flying before deciding on ownership
    Bought my Bo
    First annual was 25% of the purchase price and 5 months


    With all that said, I cannot see myself ever renting again. The "quiet" that comes from not checking with anyone, or getting an email that your scheduling has been cancelled when you have been studying the weather all work week and seeing clear skies finally, or seeing how people leave rentals when they are done, makes me either a sole owner or in another hobby.

    I realize I had bad luck and not the norm, so please dont think this will happen to you. Just that crap happens and your path wont be a straight line.
     
    GSDpilot likes this.