New Laptop

[RJM62]

I finally broke down and bought a new laptop. The one it's replacing has been a real workhorse, running nearly 24/7/365 for more than four years with nary a complaint. But it's starting to show signs of age, so I'm semi-retiring it to personal use, and have moved all my business use to the new one.

I chose the HP Envy 17j series, with the Intel i5 4200M processor and 6GB of RAM expandable to 16. I think that's probably the best performance / price value for me, and most people who aren't extreme power users. Cost me $799.99 postpaid, plus $9.95 for priority shipping. Total time from submitting the order to receiving it was ~ 48 hours. Pretty decent.

I'm extremely pleased with the laptop itself. It's nicely designed and laid out, has a very nice display, very nice sound by laptop standards, and is very zippy. I also like the fact that it has a second hard drive bay, and I've ordered the caddy and cable (as well as a second drive) so I can make a clone backup, in addition to the other backups I make. (I'm kind of a backup fanatic...)

HP has really backed off on the crapware. Their own proprietary software has also become much better. Their "Support Adviser" or whatever they call it actually caught a few updates and tweaks that I'd missed. And I love the "Simple Pass" fingerprint-activated password filler. It's a real pleasure not to have to enter all those passwords.

All in all, I'm extremely happy with the machine itself. No remorse at all.

As for Windows 8... Grrr....

It took 2 1/2 long days for me to get the very capable laptop into a condition in which it could help me do productive work, and about 10 hours of that was spent making Windows behave like I want it to. The Metro interface in particular is an abomination in every way. The only thing it's good for is generating revenue for Microsoft every time someone buys an "app" from their "store."

If I had to pick the absolute stupidest thing from among the many stupid things about Metro, it would be that it forces "apps" to run in full-screen. That works on a phone. It doesn't work on a 17" laptop. It's just superlatively stupid.

So I downloaded the 8.1 upgrade. It took more than eight hours for a ~ 3GB file -- a staggering time considering the usual download speeds I get. They must throttle the download, and I couldn't find a fullfile version.

The installer also insisted on updating all the other useless "apps" that I hadn't already uninstalled before updating Windows. But it didn't say anything about this. It just did nothing for about an hour. I searched the Interwebz, and someone said to update the other apps and the 8.1 installation would continue. That someone was right.

The 8.1 upgrade reinstalled the useless "apps" that I had uninstalled, mainly live links to MSN / Bing news, weather, sports, finance, etc. pages. I uninstalled them again, of course, with a few cuss words for good measure.

After the 8.1 upgrade completed, I could finally bypass the horrid Metro screen. Then I installed Classic Shell and a few other kludges to make the desktop look and work the way I wanted to, and then spent about a day and a half migrating data and downloading and installing the software I use for work, along with BackBlaze, ESET, etc.

Performance-wise, however, Windows 8 is amazing. Applications like Dreamweaver, Fireworks, and so forth open nearly instantly and run much faster than on the machine this one's replacing (which is by no means an underpowered machine in its on right). It actually runs so fast and so well that it was worth the time I spent jailing the horrid Metro interface.

-Rich

 

[kgruber]

That's why I have migrated to MacBook Pro. Every day I like it more.

 

[Norman]

And that is precisely why I searched for a laptop with Windows 7, and upgraded my desktop from Vista to 7. That transition was bad enough. With 8 I'm afraid my laptop would have died from a bad case of lead poisoning.

 

[RJM62]

And that is precisely why I searched for a laptop with Windows 7, and upgraded my desktop from Vista to 7. That transition was bad enough. With 8 I'm afraid my laptop would have died from a bad case of lead poisoning.

I love Windows 7. When it came out, it was the best thing that Microsoft ever did, in my opinion.

But under the hood, once you get past the horrid UI, Windows 8 is even better.

-Rich

 

[Norman]

There was definitely a learning curve with Windows Live Mail. Except for that 7 was relatively easy to get accustomed to.

 

[DaleB]

I just spent the last week in Charlotte in a class at the Microsoft campus there (SCOM 2012, if you are wondering). The laptops we used were beasts -- 8-core I7 machines with 16GB of memory and 17 or 18 inch screens. Each was running two to six VMs with Windows Server 2008 R2 - an AD domain controller as well as a SQL 2012 database server, SCOM management server and a couple of others. I could still use the laptop's host OS for web browsing and reading while all of this was going on. I don't know that I would want to carry a laptop that huge, but it was interesting to see the higher end of the spectrum there.

As for W8... I walked into a store earlier this year fully intending to buy either a tablet or a laptop. After playing with Windows 8 for a bit, I decided not to buy either. If I'd been able to get anything with Win7 I probably would have, but 8 is just unusable. I came to the same conclusion in Charlotte after using a few demo machines they had running 8 or 8.1 or whatever. We did get a trip to the employee store, where I was tickled to find Win 7 still available... $40 for Win 7 Professional.

 

[Mason]

I just spent the last week in Charlotte in a class at the Microsoft campus there (SCOM 2012, if you are wondering). The laptops we used were beasts -- 8-core I7 machines with 16GB of memory and 17 or 18 inch screens. Each was running two to six VMs with Windows Server 2008 R2 - an AD domain controller as well as a SQL 2012 database server, SCOM management server and a couple of others. I could still use the laptop's host OS for web browsing and reading while all of this was going on. I don't know that I would want to carry a laptop that huge, but it was interesting to see the higher end of the spectrum there.

As for W8... I walked into a store earlier this year fully intending to buy either a tablet or a laptop. After playing with Windows 8 for a bit, I decided not to buy either. If I'd been able to get anything with Win7 I probably would have, but 8 is just unusable. I came to the same conclusion in Charlotte after using a few demo machines they had running 8 or 8.1 or whatever. We did get a trip to the employee store, where I was tickled to find Win 7 still available... $40 for Win 7 Professional.

Win7 business machines are still available from Dell.

 

[RJM62]

I just spent the last week in Charlotte in a class at the Microsoft campus there (SCOM 2012, if you are wondering). The laptops we used were beasts -- 8-core I7 machines with 16GB of memory and 17 or 18 inch screens. Each was running two to six VMs with Windows Server 2008 R2 - an AD domain controller as well as a SQL 2012 database server, SCOM management server and a couple of others. I could still use the laptop's host OS for web browsing and reading while all of this was going on. I don't know that I would want to carry a laptop that huge, but it was interesting to see the higher end of the spectrum there.

As for W8... I walked into a store earlier this year fully intending to buy either a tablet or a laptop. After playing with Windows 8 for a bit, I decided not to buy either. If I'd been able to get anything with Win7 I probably would have, but 8 is just unusable. I came to the same conclusion in Charlotte after using a few demo machines they had running 8 or 8.1 or whatever. We did get a trip to the employee store, where I was tickled to find Win 7 still available... $40 for Win 7 Professional.

And that's a shame, because it's a fantastic OS. I can't understand Microsoft's decision to burden it with that horrible, ghastly, unusable UI. It deserves better. In terms of efficiency and resource management, it's a thing of beauty.

The only thing I can figger is that MS wants the revenue stream from selling "apps" on their "store," a'la Apple and Google. But they can still have that on tablets and phones, while giving desktop users the choice to have their familiar UI. By all estimates I've read, that's what the vast majority of users are doing anyway, by way of Classic Shell and other third-party hacks.

-Rich

 

[Reklats]

I've been using Windows 8 and now 8.1 since preview for both, on laptops and desktops and have no issues working with the Metro Start Screen. I have downloaded 0 metro apps on my desktop and laptop because I don't use machines like a tablet. On my "tablet", a Surface, I have a few apps, but use it more like a traditional laptop.

When you boot into Win 8 and land at the metro start screen, just press the escape key, and you get dropped to the desktop. I pin my top apps to the TASKBAR. Looking for an app, just press start and start typing. I find finding an app via the metro start screen to be much faster then win7. I pin a few more "desktop" apps to the metro start screen.

Should MS given an option to disable metro, probably, but its workable even with a 27" monitor.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

 

[EppyGA]

And that's a shame, because it's a fantastic OS. I can't understand Microsoft's decision to burden it with that horrible, ghastly, unusable UI. It deserves better. In terms of efficiency and resource management, it's a thing of beauty.

The only thing I can figger is that MS wants the revenue stream from selling "apps" on their "store," a'la Apple and Google. But they can still have that on tablets and phones, while giving desktop users the choice to have their familiar UI. By all estimates I've read, that's what the vast majority of users are doing anyway, by way of Classic Shell and other third-party hacks.

-Rich

Same interface used across their spectrum of devices which unfortunately means built to the lowest common denominator, the windows phone.

 

[EppyGA]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on an HP Envy desktop machine with the i7 processor, a 1TB drive, 32GB RAM and a GForce video card for $999 from Costco.

 

[RJM62]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on an HP Envy desktop machine with the i7 processor, a 1TB drive, 32GB RAM and a GForce video card for $999 from Costco.

I've always been very happy with HP laptops. I hated the crapware they used to fill them with, but it looks like they've reformed themselves in that area. They still install Wild Tangent and trials of Norton and MS-Office, but that's nothing compared to the old days.

I also thought about the i7 for this purchase, but I honestly don't think I'd experience any noticeable improvement over the i5 for the work I do. All the programs I use (at least the ones I've had a chance to try) run great on the i5. I haven't tried any video editing, though... but I very rarely do that, anyway.

I'm keeping an eye on RAM utilization, though. When I'm working at full steam I often have multiple things going on. I may upgrade the RAM.

-Rich

 

[kgruber]

I like backlit keyboards and am considering this one for a PC, which I still need.

 

[DaleB]

And that's a shame, because it's a fantastic OS. I can't understand Microsoft's decision to burden it with that horrible, ghastly, unusable UI. It deserves better. In terms of efficiency and resource management, it's a thing of beauty.

Yah, but but you slap that pile of crap UI on it and I could get more done and be less frustrated with RSTS on a PDP-11.

 

[FastEddieB]

That's why I have migrated to MacBook Pro. Every day I like it more.

I have a "late 2008" 15" MacBook Pro.

It has outlasted two Windows machines. It is still my home computer.

An old white iBook still boots right up if I need to run a "legacy" program (which I did, recently, to run the Airport Utility needed for my older Airport Express - shame on Apple for not supporting it in their current utility).

Just one man's experience. Macs are not for everyone, but they do, in general, seem very long-lived - perhaps enough to justify their price delta.

 

[RJM62]

I like backlit keyboards and am considering this one for a PC, which I still need.

I've had good luck with Acer laptops, as well. I think HP, at least in the middle- and high-ends, has a bit of an edge in terms of the performance to price ratio, but neither company has disappointed me. HP parts also tended to be a bit less expensive and easier to come by, in my experience, when I was still fixing computers.

I haven't had recent experience with Toshiba, but the hinges used to be weak. Replacing hinges on Toshibas was a common repair job when I was still doing that sort of work. IBMs used to be workhorses, but I have no experience with them since they sold out to Lenovo. (I'm told that they're still fine machines.)

-Rich

 

[RJM62]

Yah, but but you slap that pile of crap UI on it and I could get more done and be less frustrated with RSTS on a PDP-11.

Exactly, at least for long-time users who just want to get the same work done that they've been doing for years or decades, and don't want to have to learn a new UI. If they want to include both, I have no problem with that; but requiring long-time users to re-learn the system and taking away UI features such as the Start Menu was a horrible marketing decision.

Truly, MS should be thankful for the kludges that are out there. Without them, I think the sales of Win8 would have been even more anemic than they already are. Most people don't want to sit around for hours making their computers usable for them, especially when Win7 is such a worthy and capable alternative.

-Rich

 

[RJM62]

I have a "late 2008" 15" MacBook Pro.

It has outlasted two Windows machines. It is still my home computer.

An old white iBook still boots right up if I need to run a "legacy" program (which I did, recently, to run the Airport Utility needed for my older Airport Express - shame on Apple for not supporting it in their current utility).

Just one man's experience. Macs are not for everyone, but they do, in general, seem very long-lived - perhaps enough to justify their price delta.

Mac was another option I considered. They're good machines with a solid OS, all the software I actually need is available for both operating systems, and my license allows me to install the software on both systems simultaneously; so software compatibility isn't an issue.

In the end, though, I simply don't care much for the Mac UI. I like it better than I like Metro, but not as much as I like the "classic" Windows interface. If the tools to hack Win8 into submission weren't readily available, I probably would have gone with a Mac.

Admittedly, my lukewarm feelings toward the Mac UI are largely because I simply am accustomed to Windows and can use it effortlessly. On a Mac, I have to think about how to do this, that, or the other thing. Given a few weeks or months of constant use, those things would become automatic. But in the end, for the work I do, it would be a learning curve to get back to exactly where I already am in Windows.

-Rich

 

[EppyGA]

I've always been very happy with HP laptops. I hated the crapware they used to fill them with, but it looks like they've reformed themselves in that area. They still install Wild Tangent and trials of Norton and MS-Office, but that's nothing compared to the old days.

I also thought about the i7 for this purchase, but I honestly don't think I'd experience any noticeable improvement over the i5 for the work I do. All the programs I use (at least the ones I've had a chance to try) run great on the i5. I haven't tried any video editing, though... but I very rarely do that, anyway.

I'm keeping an eye on RAM utilization, though. When I'm working at full steam I often have multiple things going on. I may upgrade the RAM.

-Rich

I'm using an HP laptop right now. I think everything I have currently is HP except for the iPads.

 

[rbridges]

If you have a retina screen macbook, be careful with it. My daughter closed hers with the power cord in the way, and it messed up the display on her 15". Apple is wanting $900+ to replace/repair it.

That price is ridiculous, it's not like it's a part for a plane.

 

[RJM62]

One thing I noticed actually doing work with the new machine this morning is that things that required accessing / sorting many files (like synchronizing images with a Web site by date modified) are phenomenally faster on the new. Did MS make any improvements to the filesystem or indexing with Win8, or is this all because of faster hardware?

-Rich

 

[denverpilot]

If you have a retina screen macbook, be careful with it. My daughter closed hers with the power cord in the way, and it messed up the display on her 15". Apple is wanting $900+ to replace/repair it.

That price is ridiculous, it's not like it's a part for a plane.

If you have an airplane, be careful with it. If you crash it, they want a lot of money to fix it.

http://www.ifixit.com/Device/MacBook_Pro_15"

The price is half the cost of the machine, which sounds about right to me. Look inside. The rest of the machine is bog-standard laptop components. They're squished into a small case by some good layout design engineers at Apple, but the display is the most valuable part of most laptops.

Guess your daughter is getting some Torx screwdrivers and a display assembly for Christmas, eh. Plenty of free time during school break to learn how to fix the thing you broke?

 

[cowman]

Windows 8... have fun when you discover you get no install media and despite what may be implied, restore/recovery disks you create in fact won't re-install the OS without the recovery partition on the hard drive.

Which is why I'm running 7 on my laptop now. I got a new SSD drive and after an evening of fiddling gave up on installing 8 on it. I wanted 8 for the better performance but given that I'm not dealing with metro this way, I don't miss it too much.

 

[RJM62]

Windows 8... have fun when you discover you get no install media and despite what may be implied, restore/recovery disks you create in fact won't re-install the OS without the recovery partition on the hard drive.

Which is why I'm running 7 on my laptop now. I got a new SSD drive and after an evening of fiddling gave up on installing 8 on it. I wanted 8 for the better performance but given that I'm not dealing with metro this way, I don't miss it too much.

Thanks. In my case, that's not a big issue because I clone the hard drive anyway, in addition to my other backups. I have an identical drive to the system drive and a caddy / cable set on order, both expected on Friday. So even if the system drive failed, both the system and the restore partitions on the clone would be intact and bootable.

I'm also pretty sure that on HP laptops, you can recover the original system without the recovery disks by booting directly into the recovery partition (F11 on boot, I think). So the only time I would need to use the restore disks would be if I were selling / giving the laptop away when it's retired, and the recovery partitions on both the primary drive and the clone were both trashed.

-Rich