New Insights into TWA 800?

JimNtexas said:
I was in USAFE at the same time, and Ron is exactly correct. It does bother me that the shooter recently made Admiral (just like his Dad did).

It certainly is possible for an aircraft fuel tank to spontaniously explode, as happened to Philippine Airlines Flight 143.

Does this sound familar:



This is exactly the TWA 800 scenario. It happened in 1990, luckily before takeoff.

Whatever caused the TWA 800 fuel tank explosion, it was NOT a missile. TWA 800 was out of the envelope for a manpad, manpads hit engines, not fuselages, and no manpad has nearly enough energy to cut as 747in half. Even an air-to-air missile can't do that. For example, KAL-007 flew for over ten minutes after it was hit by an air-to-air missile.

The only kind of missile that could cut an airliner in half would be a very large radar guided surface to air missile, like an SA-5 or Patriot. A weapon like that injects its target with thousands of fragmentation sharps and also a devastating pressure wave. The missile and the target merge into one mass of metal.

No missile components were found in the wreckage. No holes in the aircraft's skin.

No missile can cut a B747 in half and leave no trace.

There have been a few instances of civil airplanes being hit by inadvertent missile fire. The best example was Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, which was accidentally shot down by an Ukrainian SA-5 (aka S-200) missile.

In that case the aircraft skin was peppered with holes and missile components were found embedded in the wreckage.

For 18 years I was a Wild Weasel and Raven Electronic Warfare Officer. We studied radars and missiles every day. We had to know the details of how they kill airplanes, so we could kill them before they killed us.

I spent a year running a live weapons range. I've operated over dozen different friendly and not-so-friendly SAM systems. Whatever killed TWA 800, it wasn't a missile.

And of course the whole notion that an inadvertent missile firing could be kept a secret by the thousands of people who would know about it beyond ridiculous. Not only would an entire ship's crew, from the captain to the laundry tech would have to stay silent for decades, the FBI (who inventoried all the missiles in the darn Navy), the Navy supply system, and the entire NTSB would be in on the conspiracy. Only an idiot, or Alex Jones would believe that.

One wonders why the guy peddling this movie didn't speak up at the time?

I wish the government could operate tenth as effectively as the conspiracy story sellers would have us believe. If government could, socialism would work.

Strong message follows.
Click to expand...

But but but,

If the CFT was full of ready to blow vapor you wouldn't need a big missile to blow it up:lol:


(Or a missile at all really):wink2:
 
On a bumper sticker: Whatever killed TWA 800 had to impart enough energy to INSTANTLY CUT A HUMONGOUS 747 IN HALF!!!!! Not many things (other than a center fuel tank explosion) could do that.

Oh, and Ron and I did know each other back then, not real well, but we crossed paths a few times.

You see he was on the mere brown and green bomber side, where as I was in the ultra elite Raven Squadron, home to cream of the navigator crop and able to open all the garage doors within line of sight at will!

So it was privilege for a bomber nav like Ron to even be in the same room as the God-Like EWOs of the Raven side. :rofl: :wink2:
 
JimNtexas said:
So it was privilege for a bomber nav like Ron to even be in the same room as the God-Like EWOs of the Raven side. :rofl: :wink2:
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Who both owe their aircrafts' capability to a totally humble but infinitely brilliant engineer @ WPAFB (aka Wright-Pitiful AFB by the wearers of the Green Bag). :lol: ;)

Cheers
 
A better story involves jamming the Idaho State Police's radar guns on the highway from Mountain Home to Boise.
 
JimNtexas said:
I was in USAFE at the same time, and Ron is exactly correct. It does bother me that the shooter recently made Admiral (just like his Dad did).

It certainly is possible for an aircraft fuel tank to spontaniously explode, as happened to Philippine Airlines Flight 143.

Does this sound familar:



This is exactly the TWA 800 scenario. It happened in 1990, luckily before takeoff.

Whatever caused the TWA 800 fuel tank explosion, it was NOT a missile. TWA 800 was out of the envelope for a manpad, manpads hit engines, not fuselages, and no manpad has nearly enough energy to cut as 747in half. Even an air-to-air missile can't do that. For example, KAL-007 flew for over ten minutes after it was hit by an air-to-air missile.

The only kind of missile that could cut an airliner in half would be a very large radar guided surface to air missile, like an SA-5 or Patriot. A weapon like that injects its target with thousands of fragmentation sharps and also a devastating pressure wave. The missile and the target merge into one mass of metal.

No missile components were found in the wreckage. No holes in the aircraft's skin.

No missile can cut a B747 in half and leave no trace.

There have been a few instances of civil airplanes being hit by inadvertent missile fire. The best example was Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, which was accidentally shot down by an Ukrainian SA-5 (aka S-200) missile.

In that case the aircraft skin was peppered with holes and missile components were found embedded in the wreckage.

For 18 years I was a Wild Weasel and Raven Electronic Warfare Officer. We studied radars and missiles every day. We had to know the details of how they kill airplanes, so we could kill them before they killed us.

I spent a year running a live weapons range. I've operated over dozen different friendly and not-so-friendly SAM systems. Whatever killed TWA 800, it wasn't a missile.

And of course the whole notion that an inadvertent missile firing could be kept a secret by the thousands of people who would know about it beyond ridiculous. Not only would an entire ship's crew, from the captain to the laundry tech would have to stay silent for decades, the FBI (who inventoried all the missiles in the darn Navy), the Navy supply system, and the entire NTSB would be in on the conspiracy. Only an idiot, or Alex Jones would believe that.

One wonders why the guy peddling this movie didn't speak up at the time?

I wish the government could operate tenth as effectively as the conspiracy story sellers would have us believe. If government could, socialism would work.

Strong message follows.
Click to expand...

Perfectly said!!! If I could focus long enough and type fast enough this is exactly what I would've typed. Thank you for posting the truth.

Why do people long for a conspiracy.
 
snoboy said:
Perfectly said!!! If I could focus long enough and type fast enough this is exactly what I would've typed. Thank you for posting the truth.

Why do people long for a conspiracy.
Click to expand...


Hmmmmm... Let's see....

The guv lied to us about WMD's
The guv lied to us about Benghazi
The guv lied to us about the AP scandel and James Rosen
The guv lied to us about the IRS
The guv lied to us about the NSA recording ALL data and phone calls.

Do you really think the VAST majority trusts the guv.:dunno::no::nonod::no::nonod:..

Wake up and smell the conspiracies... :yes::rolleyes:.

That is unless you work for the guv......... then it is nothing but damage control posts..:mad:
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmmm... Let's see....

The guv lied to us about WMD's
The guv lied to us about Benghazi
The guv lied to us about the AP scandel and James Rosen
The guv lied to us about the IRS
The guv lied to us about the NSA recording ALL data and phone calls.
Click to expand...

All of which were uncovered. Why hasn't the much more lethal TWA 800 conspiracy been uncovered yet? Or has it and which version is true in your opinion? There is no dearth of "unofficial" reasons ranging from it never happened at all to an Aegis Cruiser lobbing a Standard Missile by mistake (or on purpose) to a group of some kind of nutters or terrorists firing a SAM from somewhere undetermined.;)

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
All of which were uncovered. Why hasn't the much more lethal TWA 800 conspiracy been uncovered yet? Or has it and which version is true in your opinion? There is no dearth of "unofficial" reasons ranging from it never happened at all to an Aegis Cruiser lobbing a Standard Missile by mistake (or on purpose) to a group of some kind of nutters or terrorists firing a SAM from somewhere undetermined.;)

Cheers
Click to expand...

History will have the correct answer to your question.......... Ya just have to wait 50 years...:yes::):D
 
N801BH said:
History will have the correct answer to your question.......... Ya just have to wait 50 years...:yes::):D
Click to expand...

I think there are still people who debate whether Roosevelt allowed the folks at Pearl Harbor to be surprised by the Japanese.
 
N801BH said:
History will have the correct answer to your question.......... Ya just have to wait 50 years...:yes::):D
Click to expand...

Can't wait that long, not enough time left on the bio clock. ;)

Enquiring minds want to know now. Besides I have waited at least that long to get the evidence the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. :yes:

Cheers
 
JimNtexas said:
It does bother me that the shooter recently made Admiral (just like his Dad did).
Click to expand...
Minor point, but he did not make Admiral. He was selected by a board of reserve, restricted line folks who somehow were not aware of his past and overlooked the incident.

When the story came out and the Air Force protested, Congress stepped in and refused to promote him.
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmmm... Let's see....

The guv lied to us about WMD's
The guv lied to us about Benghazi
The guv lied to us about the AP scandel and James Rosen
The guv lied to us about the IRS
The guv lied to us about the NSA recording ALL data and phone calls.

Do you really think the VAST majority trusts the guv.:dunno::no::nonod::no::nonod:..

Wake up and smell the conspiracies... :yes::rolleyes:.

That is unless you work for the guv......... then it is nothing but damage control posts..:mad:
Click to expand...


I didn't say anything about trusting the government. Don't confuse conspiracy with cover up. A conspiracy is...

In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future.

It does not need to be covered up or even lied about to be a conspiracy.
On the other hand probably what your thinking of is...

A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses a person, group or organization of having caused or covered up an event or phenomenon of great social, political, or economic impact. Nefes underlines the political nature of conspiracy theories and suggests that one of the most important characteristics of these accounts is their attempt to unveil the 'real but hidden' power relations in social groups

So technically you would say to me "Wake up and smell the conspiracy theories":yes::rolleyes:
 
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snoboy said:
I didn't say anything about trusting the government. Don't confuse conspiracy with cover up. A conspiracy is...

In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future.

It does not need to be covered up or even lied about to be a conspiracy.
On the other hand probably what your thinking of is...

A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses a person, group or organization of having caused or covered up an event or phenomenon of great social, political, or economic impact. Nefes underlines the political nature of conspiracy theories and suggests that one of the most important characteristics of these accounts is their attempt to unveil the 'real but hidden' power relations in social groups

So technically you would say to me "Wake up and smell the conspiracy theories":yes::rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Whatever.................. Spin it however you want...;):yes:
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmmm... Let's see....

The guv lied to us about WMD's
The guv lied to us about Benghazi
The guv lied to us about the AP scandel and James Rosen
The guv lied to us about the IRS
The guv lied to us about the NSA recording ALL data and phone calls.

Do you really think the VAST majority trusts the guv.:dunno::no::nonod::no::nonod:..

Wake up and smell the conspiracies... :yes::rolleyes:.

That is unless you work for the guv......... then it is nothing but damage control posts..:mad:
Click to expand...

You forgot about the drone program that didn't exist.
 
Read the article. There was denial. This was after it was getting press. There also was a period of time where it was denied operating in American skies.

Theres a thread arguing that, but I'm on my phone and not going to search for it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Read the article. There was denial. This was after it was getting press. There also was a period of time where it was denied operating in American skies.

Theres a thread arguing that, but I'm on my phone and not going to search for it.
Click to expand...
I did read it.....I think the media was trying to make a bigger story than there was.
 
JimNtexas said:
...
Whatever caused the TWA 800 fuel tank explosion, it was NOT a missile. TWA 800 was out of the envelope for a manpad, manpads hit engines, not fuselages, and no manpad has nearly enough energy to cut as 747in half. Even an air-to-air missile can't do that. For example, KAL-007 flew for over ten minutes after it was hit by an air-to-air missile.

The only kind of missile that could cut an airliner in half would be a very large radar guided surface to air missile, like an SA-5 or Patriot. A weapon like that injects its target with thousands of fragmentation sharps and also a devastating pressure wave. The missile and the target merge into one mass of metal.

No missile components were found in the wreckage. No holes in the aircraft's skin.

No missile can cut a B747 in half and leave no trace.

There have been a few instances of civil airplanes being hit by inadvertent missile fire. The best example was Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, which was accidentally shot down by an Ukrainian SA-5 (aka S-200) missile.

In that case the aircraft skin was peppered with holes and missile components were found embedded in the wreckage.

For 18 years I was a Wild Weasel and Raven Electronic Warfare Officer. We studied radars and missiles every day. We had to know the details of how they kill airplanes, so we could kill them before they killed us.
.....
Click to expand...

Just as I've said many times, a big SAM (like an SA-11 or a USN Standard) kills its prey with the equivalent of a huge shotgun blast combined with a massive air hammer.

The SAM damage to MH17 is as clear as a bell, the 777 had to have been hit by a good sized SAM, the damage is far to extensive to have been caused by a MANPAD or even most air-to-air missiles.

MH17 damage disproves the TWA 800 conspiracy theories once and for all.
 
JimNtexas said:
Just as I've said many times, a big SAM (like an SA-11 or a USN Standard) kills its prey with the equivalent of a huge shotgun blast combined with a massive air hammer.

The SAM damage to MH17 is as clear as a bell, the 777 had to have been hit by a good sized SAM, the damage is far to extensive to have been caused by a MANPAD or even most air-to-air missiles.

MH17 damage disproves the TWA 800 conspiracy theories once and for all.
Click to expand...

Nahh, the difference is that TWA 800 was a test shot of a particle ray beam. They were demonstrating the tracking on the 747 which is an optical tracking system so it naturally chose center of mass, the cross of the fuselage and wings as the target. They only meant to illuminate it but Oops, it was turned past stun to kill and, oh well. But the demo was successful and Cheney sold a bunch of those units.













:D
 
An explosion outside the aircraft would have certainly left puncture marks. I remember the FBI agent in charge who lost a close friend on this flight. He stated that it happened as the investigation said it did. I agree. Move on.
 
steingar said:
The Boeing 747 exploded and crashed into the ocean on its way to Paris, killing all 230 people aboard. The NTSB concluded that aged wiring caused a short which ignited fuel vapors. The NTSB has been petitioned to reopen its investigation, and a new documentary paints a more sinister tale, according to this story.
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"Documentaries" always paint a sinister tale.
 
steingar said:
They're claiming they have NTSB board members who were silenced until retirement. We'll see.
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Do away with government sector pensions and a lot of this self-preservation crap goes away.
 
tinerj said:
Get all of the conspiracy theories of TWA Flight 800 in all of their glory in Night Fall by Nelson DeMille. It's one of his better books, and a fine read.

You can get it for the price of postage and handling from Internet used book stores. Well, $0.01 + P/H.
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It is very good, with a great twist ending.

John Corey rules.
 
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