New Insights into TWA 800?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by steingar, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    25,304
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    The Boeing 747 exploded and crashed into the ocean on its way to Paris, killing all 230 people aboard. The NTSB concluded that aged wiring caused a short which ignited fuel vapors. The NTSB has been petitioned to reopen its investigation, and a new documentary paints a more sinister tale, according to this story.
     
  2. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,415
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    It will be interesting to see if they really have come up with anything new.
     
  3. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,885
    Location:
    I19 & SBS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Geezer
    Same guy who found Emelia Earhart's airplane?

    Or maybe financing the latest excavation for Jimmy Hoffa?

    Or really knows who shot JFK?

    Or is a descendant of John Wilkes Booth who knows who really shot Lincoln?

    Or maybe has uncovered the set where they filmed the moon landings in the Desert outside Las Vegas?

    Cheers
     
  4. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    25,304
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    They're claiming they have NTSB board members who were silenced until retirement. We'll see.
     
  5. Warrior

    Warrior Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    924
    Location:
    Sebring, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warrior
    I know someone who thinks that Pan Am 103 (Lockerbie Scotland inflight breakup) was structural failure. TWA 800 has always been filled with speculation about that "external" missile or whatever. Who know what really happened but maybe some interesting new facts will arise.
     
  6. jonnyjetprop

    jonnyjetprop Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2011
    Messages:
    1,011
    Location:
    Apopka, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    The biggest issue that I have with the terrorist missile theory is that no one took credit.
     
  7. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    25,304
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    OBL tried to deflect credit for 911. Could be they didn't realize what would happen if they succeeded.
     
  8. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    13,409
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    OK, time to corner the market on tinfoil hats.

    And Elvis is dead, too.
     
  9. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,415
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
  10. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,885
    Location:
    I19 & SBS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Geezer
    Keeping anything in DC secret that the "public" has in interest in is next to impossible. The chance that there are "new facts" not previously disclosed that will change anything is close to zero. :rolleyes:

    Cheers
     
  11. Threefingeredjack

    Threefingeredjack En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    3,173
    Location:
    Central Oregon/Hawaii
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Threefingeredjack
    I thought he had just gone home........ :yesnod:
     
  12. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    31,266
    The biggest issue I have with that "theory" is that the damage to the aircraft isn't compatible with it.
     
  13. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Ventura, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John S
    But there is one question that does seem to go unanswered.. why weren't the 747 grounded after they made the initial finding and why is there no AD to cover the wiring harness..

    Or, I am just not doing that good a research on this?
     
  14. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Ventura, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John S
    Saw him yesterday at Trader Vic's... his hair was perfect!
     
  15. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    31,266
    No reason to ground them. Changes were made in the operating procedures so the fuel/air ratio in the center wing tank ullage space would not be in the explosive range.

    Because there was no real proof that any particular harness failed in any particular way. It was clear that something inside the tank sparked the explosion, but beyond that it was just guesswork as to what that something was. The one thing that was certain beyond reasonable doubt based on the physical evidence and our knowledge of fuel tank ullage explosions (studied very carefully in the combat aircraft survivability world long before that accident) was that there was no penetration of the tank from the outside prior to the explosion.
     
  16. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    23,787
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iBanYou
    Don't we have more useful things for the NTSB to do, like investigate all of the planes that are still crashing?
     
  17. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    31,266
    Unfortunately, the rules require the NTSB to respond to any petition for reinvestigation. They are not, however, required to reinvestigate, so the answer can be "no" although they must explain why they said "no".
     
  18. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    7,958
    Location:
    NOYB
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    First Officer
    Maybe they should investigate all the planes NOT flying. GA, as a segment, has crashed and I'd like answers.
     
  19. Dr. O

    Dr. O Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,332
    Location:
    Hemlock, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    denny
    I don't have a dog in this fight. But I have noted some interesting points.
    First: The lead investigator says he went into it thinking they would find that the plane had been shot down. After all, he had the police/FBI reports of witnesses who say they saw a missile. As each piece came up from the ocean and there were no characteristic deformations from an external explosion or of shrapnel and he had to revise his thinking.

    Second: This film maker who claims that if the fuel vapors had exploded the velocity of the explosion would be less than the speed of sound, i.e. a LOW explosive. He claims the pressure front was in the 4000 feet per second range (his opinion - shrug) I could go into a long discussion of the change in velocity when a vapor is in free air as opposed to being confined when ignited. But I won't.

    I feel this boy has spent way too much time on the grassy knoll and overheated his brain.
    Now look at whose ox was being gored in the investigation. It is/was in the best interests of both Boeing and of the FBI to find this was a terrorist attack.
    That gets Boeing off the hook for a defective design.
    That gives the FBI a starring role in a new and MAJOR crime.
    A win-win for both.
    They couldn't pull it off. The findings simply did not support any conclusion other than the hot fuel vapor inside of a confined space, ignited.
    My grandfather always said if you want to find the facts, follow the money. The money (huge), aka facts, did not get a win for either Boeing or the FBI.
    Case closed, according to gramps.
     
  20. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,885
    Location:
    I19 & SBS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Geezer
    According to the Red Board, that other source of impeccable aviation knowledge, the retired NTSB person(s) are from the highway safety part of the NTSB. Maybe they have some revelation on how a tracked vehicle mounted SAM could have traversed NYC undetected, set up a site and fired from a concealed location next to the JFK access road. :rolleyes2:

    Cheers
     
  21. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Missile from a F-14, practice targeting and the pilot pulled the trigger, at least that was the rumor on LI. I remember the first computer animations the news were running had a little made by CIA tag in the corner, quickly changed to NTSB, 17 years ago that stuff wasn't new, but not every kid could do it at home in 5 minutes.
     
  22. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,728
    Location:
    New York City
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skip Miller
    Are you sure? I thought that was Donald Trump. I saw him in the hairspray section.....

    -Skip
     
  23. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,856
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    Ron - I have a question about your post #15.

    One one hand, the investigation definitively determined an electrical problem, then on the other hand post 15 says they aren't sure...

    I'm not feeling good about the seemingly conflicting conclusions.
     
  24. tinerj

    tinerj Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,325
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    tinerj
    Get all of the conspiracy theories of TWA Flight 800 in all of their glory in Night Fall by Nelson DeMille. It's one of his better books, and a fine read.

    You can get it for the price of postage and handling from Internet used book stores. Well, $0.01 + P/H.
     
  25. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    Speaking of reinvestigations, on another board a comment was made by someone who had been through the NTSB training facility that TWA 800 gets reinvestigated every couple of weeks when a new class comes through.

    While the wreckage is not exactly open to the average Joe Public, it sure is not being hidden by the Boogie Man.
     
  26. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,856
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    It's of low credibility spoon-feeding babes the party line. Ensures that the story is told the way you want it as history marches forward.

    I have no opinion either way about TWA 800, just saying...
     
  27. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    It isn't about spoon feeding as it is that a critical-thinking person can see it for themselves.

    The point is, it isn't just NTSB trainees that go there. Lots of experienced aviation professionals who work outside of the Federal government go through there and are able to see it.
     
  28. TedR3

    TedR3 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2010
    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Philly
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ted
    They show the wreckage to the public. When I attended a FAAST seminar this Spring at the NTSB training facility, we were shown the TWA 800 wreckage (and a couple of other wrecks).

    It is an impressive and sobering sight.
     
  29. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    546
    Location:
    Omaha
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bobanna
    I saw the reconstruction at Calverton. Funny thing was that the wings and engines were absent. Sure looks like a head-fake to me. Also, as a doctorate chemist, I'm not aware of the center tank environment being anywhere near the lower explosive limit...kerosene has much more in common with cooking oil than it does with gasoline. To complete the dog-and-pony show, I recall that they pumped a mock-up full of propane or acetylene mixed with oxygen and detonated it. Analyze critically.
     
  30. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Yup. Kerosene/jetfuel vapors going kaboom is a bit far fetched.
     
  31. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    You've obviously never seen it atomized. Actually, in the case of TWA 800, atomized is probably not correct, however, depending on the level in the tank and the motion, you could conceivably get enough vapor to ignite.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  32. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    13,409
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    Hmm, it makes me wonder how some of these conspiracy theorists might explain a grain elevator explosion. The vapor pressure of grain is zero. Throw a lit match into a pile of grain and it doesn't do much. Beat the crap out of it and get it airborne, and you have an entirely different situation.

    Oh, I guess it must the Federal government staging the occasional dust explosion just to fool us.....
     
  33. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    I'm telling ya it was a failed chemtrail flight. Been telling folks for years that stuff just ain't stable!
     
  34. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH

    And why is that ?:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:
     
  35. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    How many aircraft have been lost in flight due to jetfuel vapor ignition? How often do diesel vehicles have it happen? I heard it was really a kid lighting his farts in the lav, flame got suked into the honey tank and set off all the other fart gas. The ntsb was just too embarressed and worried about copy cat fart lighting to tell the truth.
     
  36. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    Do you think anyone who lost loved ones on that flight would want the wreckage to be on display like a museum?
     
  37. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    Nah, AQ would have taken credit for that...it sounds like something right up their alley.
     
  38. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Like that ship on Pearl Harbor?
     
  39. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH

    Hmmmmmm...

    Explain the Pearl Harbor memorial for us all....:dunno::rolleyes:

    Edit... Greg beat me to it...:mad:
     
  40. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,928
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    70 years and a few generations makes a big difference to some.

    Just look at the uproar in maritime salvage circles over the Titanic vs every sunken sailing ship that has been exploited for its cargo.

    Time changes opinions.