New history on Champion plugs

Geico266 said:
Look under engine failure. ;)

Sparks plugs are fairly important. If they stop working ( MANY Champions have) planes didn't run well, and engines lose power or quit all together.

If you want to support a company that KNOWINGLY ignored plane owner complaints, continued to build DEFECTIVE spark plugs and sell them, have many documented quality issues, and fought against any design changes by all means do so. I think most plane owners realize every dollar spent is like voting for that company. I will NEVER buy anything Champion again.
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yup....I'll add a couple more brands to the NEVER buy list....

Goodyear
Landmark Aviation

btw.....IMHO I'd rather have a company go out of business from lack of sales than one that's been regulated to death and forced the whole industry to raise prices due to the beaurocratic quagmire of staying compliant. It's much, much, cheaper for a company and the consumer when businesses "self" regulate safety/quality than to "regulate" it in....;)

The consumer industry does well in this. The fear of being put outta business from either poor sales or law suits is a good motivator to be safe and produce safe products.
 
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Dav8or said:
That's because they are not defective at all. They are inferior to the competition. There is a huge difference between defective and inferior. Nobody dies because of failed spark plug resistors.
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I can't believe you are supporting Champion, or many you just want to argue. What ever, you are wrong, again. :yes: :lol: ;)

Champion knowingly sold a critical DEFECTIVE product to aircraft owners. They knew their product would NOT last the life cycle of what is considered a normal life for a spark plug, and they knowing sold a product with a high degree of failures per 1,000 plugs. That is the definition of a "defective" product. The product certainly is inferior due to the DEFECTIVE design. Champion relied on their brand loyalty to attract "suckers" to continue to buy their defective product. :mad2:
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
The consumer industry does well in this. The fear of being put outta business from either poor sales or law suits is a good motivator to be safe and produce safe products.
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Curious, have you ever worked in corporate America at the mgmt level? Have you ever sat in sr. mgmt meetings or board meetings of a large corporation?

If you had, I seriously doubt you'd make the above statement.

GM's ignition switches is but one example of the average corporation's attitude towards safety. And deep water horizon revealed numerous parties simultaneously turning a blind eye.

Don't misconstrue the above as supporting excessive regulations. I'm not. Rather I'm just saying that corporations are in no way motivated to be safe. The only thing they're motivated by is their immediate finances and stock price. They care little about next year and certainly don't care about the next decade.

Myopia is the key qualification required to sit in the boardroom.

Success in corporate America isn't about who does things right. It's about who does things less wrong.
 
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Clark1961 said:
You're right, 98.75 isn't 100 bucks... :rolleyes:
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Thanks for the correction.....

Altho with freight,,, the plug is OVER 100 bucks........

But Tom is alot smarter then me so I defer to his vast knowledge... NOT...:no::nonod:
 
Geico266 said:
Look under engine failure. ;)

Sparks plugs are fairly important. If they stop working ( MANY Champions have) planes didn't run well, and engines lose power or quit all together.

If you want to support a company that KNOWINGLY ignored plane owner complaints, continued to build DEFECTIVE spark plugs and sell them, have many documented quality issues, and fought against any design changes by all means do so. I think most plane owners realize every dollar spent is like voting for that company. I will NEVER buy anything Champion again.
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Right,mother were hearing complaints for years, and did nothing about it until people quit buying and they were losing money.
 
Dav8or said:
Well, I didn't know they changed their design, so thank you to the OP for the post and link. So the question is now, is there any difference anymore between Champion and Tempest?
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If I read all this right, Champion quietly made the change and did not change the plug model number. This means the buyer cannot verify if he has a bad old or a good new plug. That's making the assumption that the new plugs are in fact good...

So in an effort to sneak the new plugs into the market (probably to avoid lawsuits) they are crapping once again on the consumer who is prevented from making an informed decision. Who cares if the new plugs are good or not at this point? Why reward a company that thinks it is OK to crap on its customers?

-Skip
 
timwinters said:
Curious, have you ever worked in corporate America at the mgmt level? Have you ever sat in sr. mgmt meetings or board meetings of a large corporation?

If you had, I seriously doubt you'd make the above statement.

GM's ignition switches is but one example of the average corporation's attitude towards safety. And deep water horizon revealed numerous parties simultaneously turning a blind eye.

Don't misconstrue the above as supporting excessive regulations. I'm not. Rather I'm just saying that corporations are in no way motivated to be safe. The only thing they're motivated by is their immediate finances and stock price. They care little about next year and certainly don't care about the next decade.

Myopia is the key qualification required to sit in the boardroom.

Success in corporate America isn't about who does things right. It's about who does things less wrong.
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Yup.....the last 15 years were in either consumer products (Fortune 500 - DeWalt power tools in B&D) or DoD (Textron)...both were engineering positions who reported to upper management.
 
Skip Miller said:
If I read all this right, Champion quietly made the change and did not change the plug model number. This means the buyer cannot verify if he has a bad old or a good new plug. That's making the assumption that the new plugs are in fact good...

So in an effort to sneak the new plugs into the market (probably to avoid lawsuits) they are crapping once again on the consumer who is prevented from making an informed decision. Who cares if the new plugs are good or not at this point? Why reward a company that thinks it is OK to crap on its customers?

-Skip
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Actually, if you had read the article, you would know that the consumer can easily tell the old design from the new. Unscrew the spark plug lead, look inside and if you see a screwdriver slot, you have the old style. If you see no slot, they are the new style.
 
Dav8or said:
Actually, if you had read the article, you would know that the consumer can easily tell the old design from the new. Unscrew the spark plug lead, look inside and if you see a screwdriver slot, you have the old style. If you see no slot, they are the new style.
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This has no relevance to ordering/buying/spending money on new plugs. Even if you have the box and sleeve in your hand, you can't see down into the barrel.
 
Henning said:
This has no relevance to ordering/buying/spending money on new plugs. Even if you have the box and sleeve in your hand, you can't see down into the barrel.
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Sure it does. If you have the plugs in your hand, you absolutely can see that screwdriver slot down the barrel. If you can't, you need reading glasses. I know, I own these old plugs and have tested the resistance on them.

Now if you're ordering new plugs on the internet, then yeah there is no way to know. If you've read all this and are concerned, just don't buy Champion plugs. Pretty simple, just like before the redesign.

If for some strange reason you feel fiercely loyal to the Champion brand and really want their plugs, I would wait six months to a year to order on the internet, then all the existing stock of old plugs should be gone. Either that or just order them, inspect them when you get them and send them back if they are the old style. :dunno:
 
Dav8or said:
Sure it does. If you have the plugs in your hand, you absolutely can see that screwdriver slot down the barrel. If you can't, you need reading glasses. I know, I own these old plugs and have tested the resistance on them.

Now if you're ordering new plugs on the internet, then yeah there is no way to know. If you've read all this and are concerned, just don't buy Champion plugs. Pretty simple, just like before the redesign.

If for some strange reason you feel fiercely loyal to the Champion brand and really want their plugs, I would wait six months to a year to order on the internet, then all the existing stock of old plugs should be gone. Either that or just order them, inspect them when you get them and send them back if they are the old style. :dunno:
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You have to buy them before you can tell which they are.
 
This is the screwdriver slot to look for in an old style Champion plug. This is one of the old plugs.

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Dav8or said:
This is the screwdriver slot to look for in an old style Champion plug. This is one of the old plugs.

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Right, now how do you see that until you buy the plug when it's packaged like this:


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:dunno:
 
Henning said:
You have to buy them before you can tell which they are.
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If you are buying them on the internet, this is true. Like I said though, if you wait a while, all the old stock will be sold and then it will only be the new style available. Otherwise, buy Tempest. Much ado about nothing. Just like all consumer goods, it's buyer beware. Everybody reading this thread, or all the stuff Mike Busch writes is now aware.

I wish I had this knowledge a year and a half ago when I replaced my old Champions at annual and on the advise of my A&P, went with Champions again. Oh well, I now know how to test them and I have. So far with about 70 hours on them, they are still in spec. I may switch to fine wire, or a hotter heat range to help with lead fouling anyhow and when I do, I'll buy the Tempests. I already buy their filters. On the other hand, I'm a bit of a cheap bastard and I'm not going to just change them all out just because they don't last as long as a Tempest.
 
Dav8or said:
Oh for God's sake! You grab the plastic bag and stretch it over the barrel without breaking it and look through the plastic. I don't have one to demonstrate, but I'm certain that is possible.
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Certain? That's not a bag, it's a thick sleeve. Give it a try.

How do I know that Champion is pulling stock from the warehouse and retailers?

This is the problem with Champion doing all this on the hush hush, you can't trust the supplier to do the right thing.
 
Skip Miller said:
If I read all this right, Champion quietly made the change and did not change the plug model number. This means the buyer cannot verify if he has a bad old or a good new plug. That's making the assumption that the new plugs are in fact good...

So in an effort to sneak the new plugs into the market (probably to avoid lawsuits) they are crapping once again on the consumer who is prevented from making an informed decision. Who cares if the new plugs are good or not at this point? Why reward a company that thinks it is OK to crap on its customers?

-Skip
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Exactly!
 
Henning said:
Certain? That's not a bag, it's a thick sleeve. Give it a try.

How do I know that Champion is pulling stock from the warehouse and retailers?

This is the problem with Champion doing all this on the hush hush, you can't trust the supplier to do the right thing.
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I have an idea! Don't buy Champion spark plugs.
 
Geico266 said:
Exactly!
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Yeah, there is a lawyer telling them the wrong thing from a marketing perspective. They're trying to avoid a suit most likely over their decades of producing defective, sub standard, products. The problem is, by not clearing the air with consumers and doing this a sneakily as possibile, they are actually going to drive the market further away from them than recover it. Had they made an announcement, "Yeah, we had some problems, we've redesigned the plugs, look for the -R suffix on the part number to get the new style." they would have a much better market response.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, there is a lawyer telling them the wrong thing from a marketing perspective. They're trying to avoid a suit most likely over their decades of producing defective, sub standard, products. The problem is, by not clearing the air with consumers and doing this a sneakily as possibile, they are actually going to drive the market further away from them than recover it. Had they made an announcement, "Yeah, we had some problems, we've redesigned the plugs, look for the -R suffix on the part number to get the new style." they would have a much better market response.
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For the cost of a couple of commercials or race car sponserships they could have done the right thing and recalled the DEFECTIVE spark plugs. They chose profit over customer relations. Shame on Champion!
 
Geico266 said:
For the cost of a couple of commercials or race car sponserships they could have done the right thing and recalled the DEFECTIVE spark plugs. They chose profit over customer relations. Shame on Champion!
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Exactly, and their problem now is that the information is in the public domain, and Champion is still ignoring it. Oh well, just remember, Federal Mogul owns Hartzel Props as well. The day they bought it, they proposed their first for profit AD.
 
The photographs of the blue tray with the resistance readings you see on the Busch article are mine.

Champion changed their design with no fanfare almost a year ago. They quietly removed all reference to their old design, and the new design is not mentioned as "new and improved". It appears as though Champion has made plugs this way forever.

So yes, shame on Champion for not being forthcoming. And don't forget they are still making Slick mags of unknown quality.

The biggest problem for mechanics is that Champion is erasing a significant portion of their revenue, now that Champion plugs are no longer the POS they have been for decades. All the mysterious misfiring, engine vibration, and aborted flights due to fouled plugs are going away.
 
I guess I need an education on Champion spark plug history. I am under the impression that these old design Champion plugs with the screw in resistor and spring were the same design as has been used for decades. Likely before I was born. Is this not true? Did they sometime in recent history switch to this new (now old and discredited) design? :dunno:

All I know is I changed my Champion plugs out a year and half ago at annual, not because they were failing, but because the electrodes were worn and marginal. At the time I knew nothing about the resistance testing, or even the Champion controversy. The shop I did the annual at had Champions and they said they were good, so I bought them. Those old plugs had gone about 450 hours.

After I learned of the resistance issue I pulled all the new plugs that had about 60 hours on them by then and they tested fine. I did however for kicks test two of the old plugs I kept as "spares" just in case of failure on the road. One plug read something like 180k ohms and the other I couldn't get a reading on, so I guess it was open circuit. Mind you, both of these plugs were functioning when I flew the plane in for annual. If they had not been, I would have seen this reflected on my engine monitor.

Knowing what I know now, I have no issues with switching to Tempest and likely will at some point. I just don't see all drama others seem to see surrounding this case. I see inferior design and I don't see defective product, some sort of product liability, or great safety issue. I see crappy plug vs. better plug. Like I said, previous owners and I got decent service out of my old plugs and the new ones work perfectly out of the box. I really don't see the "defect". It's inferior design, plain and simple.
 
philiplane said:
Champion changed their design with no fanfare almost a year ago. They quietly removed all reference to their old design, and the new design is not mentioned as "new and improved". It appears as though Champion has made plugs this way forever.

So yes, shame on Champion for not being forthcoming. And don't forget they are still making Slick mags of unknown quality.
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In this age of litigation I would do exactly as they have done and swept it under the rug. Admit no wrong no matter what. You can see how it would go. Here in this thread we have people spouting "defect" and "safety hazard", so it's easy to see where this would go should they come out and say, "So sorry about our old plugs, they're better now though...". There would be a billion dollar class action suit in 15 minutes. Every airplane that ever crashed due to engine trouble would now be alleged due to these older plugs.

We have seen this behavior time and time again. The mere mention of "new and improved" could possibly be twisted by a lawyer to mean admission of fault. As to their reputation, sure it will take a bit of tarnishing, but as we know, likely less than 10% of the aircraft owners of the world participate in online forums, or read everything Mike Busch says. In other words, it will blow over. Even Mike Busch doesn't seem to be screaming for their heads on a platter.
 
Dav8or;1735459........ I really don't see the "defect". It's inferior design said:
The words "INFERIOR DESIGN and Aviation should NEVER be used in the same sentence.....:no::no::nonod::nonod:.... IMHO.....
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philiplane said:
The photographs of the blue tray with the resistance readings you see on the Busch article are mine.

Champion changed their design with no fanfare almost a year ago. They quietly removed all reference to their old design, and the new design is not mentioned as "new and improved". It appears as though Champion has made plugs this way forever.

So yes, shame on Champion for not being forthcoming. And don't forget they are still making Slick mags of unknown quality.

The biggest problem for mechanics is that Champion is erasing a significant portion of their revenue, now that Champion plugs are no longer the POS they have been for decades. All the mysterious misfiring, engine vibration, and aborted flights due to fouled plugs are going away.
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Same company makes Hartzel props as well.
 
N801BH said:
The words "INFERIOR DESIGN and Aviation should NEVER be used in the same sentence.....:no::no::nonod::nonod:.... IMHO.....
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Sure... whatever. Then Cessnas and Pipers and Lycomings and Continentals and... hell damn near everything that is commonly used in piston GA should not be used in a sentence with inferior design. :rolleyes2:
 
Dav8or said:
Sure... whatever. Then Cessnas and Pipers and Lycomings and Continentals and... hell damn near everything that is commonly used in piston GA should not be used in a sentence with inferior design. :rolleyes2:
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Yet at this point, nearly everything in GA is of an inferior design.
 
Henning said:
Yet at this point, nearly everything in GA is of an inferior design.
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A couple of years ago Cleveland finally started using a synthetic rubber bearing seal in their wheels. That comes about 50 years after automobiles started using them. Cleveland used felt seals up until then. Autos had abandoned felt for leather seals in--oh, 1920, maybe? The felt seals let in dirt and water, which is why the aircraft manufacturers usually specified annual wheel bearing cleaning and greasing. Cars these days often go their entire lives--factory to junkyard--without any bearing service.

Magnetos. Unreliable things (which is the major reason we need two of them), short lives, and so on. The company making the E-Mag has been trying to get certification for some models, but I don't know if they've been successful. After all, cars have only had electronic ignition since 1975 or something like that. Airplanes have to put up with weak, unreliable spark--and fixed timing--for a few more decades, maybe. Aircraft quality. Pffft.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
A couple of years ago Cleveland finally started using a synthetic rubber bearing seal in their wheels. That comes about 50 years after automobiles started using them. Cleveland used felt seals up until then. Autos had abandoned felt for leather seals in--oh, 1920, maybe? The felt seals let in dirt and water, which is why the aircraft manufacturers usually specified annual wheel bearing cleaning and greasing. Cars these days often go their entire lives--factory to junkyard--without any bearing service.

Magnetos. Unreliable things (which is the major reason we need two of them), short lives, and so on. The company making the E-Mag has been trying to get certification for some models, but I don't know if they've been successful. After all, cars have only had electronic ignition since 1975 or something like that. Airplanes have to put up with weak, unreliable spark--and fixed timing--for a few more decades, maybe. Aircraft quality. Pffft.

Dan
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75 is when EVERYTHING got HEI because of emissions regulations. Due to the lean mixtures required, they had to double the plug gap. In order to fire the plug it required the extra power. Electronic ignition had existed in the performance and motorcycle markets for several years prior.
 
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