New Commercial ACS... complex plane not required?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Wheels, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    On a not-unrelated note ...

    Lufthansa-owned Airline Training Center Arizona, based at my home field, trains pilots for Lufthansa and the German Air Force. Up until recently the LH students have been using F33A Bonanzas, while the military trainees are in the slick little Grob G-120A.

    It now looks like ATCA is phasing in new Cirrus SR20s in place of the Bonanzas.

    I wonder if future LH pilots will know what that big round lever on the panel is for ... or maybe they'll weld the A340 landing gear down and put fairings on them?

    o_O:D

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Maybe I should join that Lufthansa school
     
  3. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Yep, and they should do real engine outs at 300' AGL.
     
  4. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Could always outfit them with the fake gear handle that Beech had long ago. :)
     
  5. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Or you can offer to write up an exemption request like they probably did. There have been a number of these.
     
  6. kath

    kath Administrator Management Council Member

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    My first CFI lesson is scheduled for this weekend!
    I was already doing the happy dance about that... it's something I've wanted to do for so so so long, but put off for no good reason...
    Now I'm doing the *double happy dance*, as I'll be able to use the family 172 and save myself a whole lot of hassle and money and time. Yaaaaay!

    Never been so grateful to be a procrastinator. :)
     
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  7. BrianNC

    BrianNC En-Route

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    Same here. I was flying an expensive complex (and instructor) earlier in the year working toward it and flights were getting cancelled, due to weather, etc, and I couldn't get any consistent flying and decided to wait and joined a local flight club with a cheap nicely equipped 172. I had just told my instructor last week I'm going to get proficient in all the maneuvers in the 172 where it will take me less time when I transfer back over to a complex. Then this came down. I'm ecstatic.

    Here is my track from yesterday. :D

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. FLYGUYRY

    FLYGUYRY Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sweet, CFI ride is next month, looks like I'll be taking it in a 172. Few less things to worry about.
     
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  9. MikeELP

    MikeELP Pattern Altitude

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    It should be noted that the dropping of the complex airplane requirement applies only to the checkride. Commercial students must still receive 10 hours of training in a complex airplane.
     
  10. kath

    kath Administrator Management Council Member

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    ... and I'm guessing that "how constant-speed propellers work" or "what to retract first on a go-around" etc. is still fair game for a CFI written or a CFI oral, right?
     
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  11. Wheels

    Wheels Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I would expect a commercial pilot to be able to explain those systems but the objective in the ACS is

    “To determine that the applicant exhibits satisfactory knowledge, risk management, and skills associated with the safe operation of systems on the airplane provided for the flight test.”

    I would think that if the applicant came to the checkride with a C-172 or PA-28-181 and the examiner failed him because he couldn’t explain how a constant speed propeller works the applicant would have good grounds to complain to the FSDO that the examiner was testing things that aren’t in the ACS.
     
  12. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Around here the problem would then become not being able to gain hardly any altitude in the Chandelle. LOL. :)
     
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  13. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Alice in Wonderland: Complex airplanes are so scarce that applicants no longer need to beat the bushes to find one for the checkride........but they have to find one for the ten hours of training??? Scarcity?

    Bob
     
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  14. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    One would hope that's a prelude to a regulatory change, since the ACS can be changed at-will, but the regs need an NPRM and a waiting period. :)
     
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  15. Landing Fees

    Landing Fees Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think you meant "scare-city" cause the Arrow will make you mess yer britches with all of that performance you get pulling up the gear.
     
  16. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    They can use a multi for the complex requirements, can't they? (Possibly assuming they get the commercial multi before the single engine...I haven't looked at the requirements for a while.)
     
  17. Wheels

    Wheels Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes, they can use a multi for the complex requirements, even if they don’t take the multi checkride first.
     
  18. FLYGUYRY

    FLYGUYRY Pre-takeoff checklist

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    lol you know come to think of it, I've never done one in a 172, need to try that this weekend.

    Sometimes I wonder if I should just take the arrow anyways, there is more to manage and its easier to bust your speeds, but at the same time I feel like its quite a bit easier to set down where you want it...decisions decisions...
     
  19. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Yes, but they will still have minimum requirements in the single for other stuff.
    -----
    § 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
    (a)For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplanecategory and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

    (1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

    (2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least -

    (i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

    (ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

    (3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least -

    (i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;

    (ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

    (iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

    (iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

    (v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

    (4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with anauthorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under § 61.127(b)(1) that include -

    (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

    (ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
     
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Remember, the NPRM was published two years ago. Regulatory freeze, among other things, is probably delaying it.
     
  21. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Well, the NPRM version needs a re-write anyway, because it still is the NPRM that says you replace the complex with a Technically Advanced Aircraft... and it looks like they're dropping that idea.

    If they release that thing as-is, a whole lot of folks who are prepping to do the ride in Skyhawks are going to be REALLY ticked... hahaha.
     
  22. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I wouldn't make the assumption that not requiring a task to be demonstrated on a checkride means no training requirement for the certificate.

    Even if that's the case, it doesn't necessarily mean a new NPRM. NPRM and Final Rule often vary based on the comments received.
     
  23. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    I keep thinking retract is headed for its own endorsement. But that’s a wild assed guess.

    Good point on the NPRM. I’m so used to watching boring FCC ones that are done deals long before the NPRM process, that I forget they can change whatever they want to after public comment and don’t even need public comment on the changes.

    (Kinda defeats the purpose of the NPRM laws, but it is what it is. Never seen government not give themselves a way to wiggle out of any rules they place upon themselves...)
     
  24. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Seen both. If I recall correctly, there is a sort of "substantiality" trigger - a change large enough to argue the NPRM didn't provide notice of the proposal. But, aside from that, agencies issue multiple NPRMs for various other reasons. Common one is when the comments received raise issues leading the agency to want additional comment.
     
  25. TRocket

    TRocket Line Up and Wait

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    Ahhhhh, I'm guessing your home field is Goodyear? I wondered why there were all those yellow Bonanzas parked there when I flew in there for work a couple months ago!
     
  26. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    The complex endorsement and training requirement will still exist, and it isn't like most trainee CPL/CFIs will be getting their hands on Mooneys and Bonanzas, so Arrows and the like will still be around.
     
  27. WillFly4Food

    WillFly4Food Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Right... So the government saved you 1.5 hours in a supposedly difficult to find complex aircraft for the checkride. But left you still having to spend at least 10 hours in that complex airplane for training.

    To the government, that makes perfect sense.
     
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