New Cirrus Winglets (close up pics)

MachFly

MachFly

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MachFly
Got some close up pictures of Cirrus' new winglets if anyone is interested. Here is the article if you haven't heard about them: http://www.aopa.org/summit/news/2012/121010active-winglet.html?CMP=SummNews.

I took these at the AOPA summit last weekend:

imag0660j.jpg


imag0659v.jpg


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imag0661w.jpg
 
They are a way to extend wingspan without extending wingspan.
 
Very nice but the aerodynamic imperfection of the position light and strobe makes me cringe. :sad:
 
Kind of little setup they have there. They call them an active winglet. I suppose it has something to do with that little aileron type device. I will be interested to read or see more about this. I actually just did my first real trip in a cirrus a couple days ago and it was nice but it drinks a lot of gas.

Cheers



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
the promo photos i've seen of it in flight showed both of those orange ailerons deflected up in flight. someone needs to explain to me how having two new control surfaces deflected is more efficient.
 
flyingmoose said:
Kind of little setup they have there. They call them an active winglet. I suppose it has something to do with that little aileron type device. I will be interested to read or see more about this. I actually just did my first real trip in a cirrus a couple days ago and it was nice but it drinks a lot of gas.

Cheers



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

Drinks a lot of gas? :no: The new Cirrus that I last flew ran at 11.5 GPH at 175KTS TAS. The turbo Cirrus I fly uses about 15.0GPH at 185KTS TAS. The most inefficient Cirrus I ever flew on a regular basis burned 14.5 at 175KTS TAS. I wish my little old Cherokee 140 was that kind of gas burner. I only have 400 hours flying SR22s so I'll let someone with more experience jump in.
 
It's proven that winglets are only efficient on extremely long trips. It wouldn't surprise me if they hurt more than they helped unless you're going from topped off to minimums every trip.
 
Pa28-140 said:
Drinks a lot of gas? :no: The new Cirrus that I last flew ran at 11.5 GPH at 175KTS TAS. The turbo Cirrus I fly uses about 15.0GPH at 185KTS TAS. The most inefficient Cirrus I ever flew on a regular basis burned 14.5 at 175KTS TAS. I wish my little old Cherokee 140 was that kind of gas burner. I only have 400 hours flying SR22s so I'll let someone with more experience jump in.
Click to expand...
Well I guess its a matter of perspective then. We burned about 16.5 GPH on the last trip I was on. Now thats really not to bad to True out at 175, but I still think that is a lot of gas. Now compared to some of the aircraft i have flown, well its nothing really, but its on the high side of the light single engine market I think. Could of been because we ran best power IDK.
 
flyingmoose said:
Well I guess its a matter of perspective then. We burned about 16.5 GPH on the last trip I was on. Now thats really not to bad to True out at 175, but I still think that is a lot of gas. Now compared to some of the aircraft i have flown, well its nothing really, but its on the high side of the light single engine market I think. Could of been because we ran best power IDK.
Click to expand...

Few Cirrus owners fly at best power. Most fly well when run LOP.
 
peppy said:
Few Cirrus owners fly at best power. Most fly well when run LOP.
Click to expand...
Ok well I am not a cirrus owner. I was just along for a trip to see how the aircraft performed. So in the future if I fly it again I will look into that. Thanks
 
Pa28-140 said:
Drinks a lot of gas? :no: The new Cirrus that I last flew ran at 11.5 GPH at 175KTS TAS. The turbo Cirrus I fly uses about 15.0GPH at 185KTS TAS. The most inefficient Cirrus I ever flew on a regular basis burned 14.5 at 175KTS TAS. I wish my little old Cherokee 140 was that kind of gas burner. I only have 400 hours flying SR22s so I'll let someone with more experience jump in.
Click to expand...

This morning at 5500 feet in an SR-20 we were running 7.9-8.0 GPH, getting 140 TAS.
 
Dynasty22 said:
This morning at 5500 feet in an SR-20 we were running 7.9-8.0 GPH, getting 140 TAS.
Click to expand...

That's good efficiency. I'd be burning a bit over 10 GPH to get near that performance in my Tiger. Over two GPH is a nice fuel savings.
 
flyingmoose said:
Kind of little setup they have there. They call them an active winglet. I suppose it has something to do with that little aileron type device. I will be interested to read or see more about this. I actually just did my first real trip in a cirrus a couple days ago and it was nice but it drinks a lot of gas.

Cheers



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...
The orange control device (we call them TACS -- Tamarack Active Control Surfaces) is what makes these "Active" winglets.

They actually work very fast (90 msec to full deflection) and are only deployed when needed to reduce the bending moment the winglet imparts. In flight, I don't feel them deploy (I have to physically be looking at the winglet to know that they are working). The drag they impart is very minimal -- since they are deployed very quick and for a very short time and you are getting the benefit of reduced induced drag from the winglets. This is what allows you to have all the benefits that winglets provide -- without the extra weight that current passive winglets need in wing reinforcements. FYI: they move up (+g) or down (-g) as needed.

By the way, since it is a Load Alleviation System, it should reduce inspection intervals, not increase them. Increased inspection intervals is a characteristic of older, passive winglets.

To show them in the pictures, I manually deployed them (not an option in the production versions as they will be fully automatic).

Great discussions. Hope this helps!
 
Rotor said:
By the way, since it is a Load Alleviation System, it should reduce inspection intervals, not increase them. Increased inspection intervals is a characteristic of older, passive winglets.
Click to expand...

So you reduce inspection intervals on one piece by putting another, more complicated system on the aircraft which is going to require yet more inspections. Seems like 6 of one, half dozen of the other to me.
 
Rotor said:
The orange control device (we call them TACS -- Tamarack Active Control Surfaces) is what makes these "Active" winglets.

They actually work very fast (90 msec to full deflection) and are only deployed when needed to reduce the bending moment the winglet imparts. In flight, I don't feel them deploy (I have to physically be looking at the winglet to know that they are working). The drag they impart is very minimal -- since they are deployed very quick and for a very short time and you are getting the benefit of reduced induced drag from the winglets. This is what allows you to have all the benefits that winglets provide -- without the extra weight that current passive winglets need in wing reinforcements. FYI: they move up (+g) or down (-g) as needed.

By the way, since it is a Load Alleviation System, it should reduce inspection intervals, not increase them. Increased inspection intervals is a characteristic of older, passive winglets.

To show them in the pictures, I manually deployed them (not an option in the production versions as they will be fully automatic).

Great discussions. Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

So how are they controlled? Electric acuators using an accelerometer? The wing cannot handle the extra wing loading? Is the whole system going to be plug and play?

Thanks for the analysis?

Cheers
 
Rotor said:
The orange control device (we call them TACS -- Tamarack Active Control Surfaces) is what makes these "Active" winglets.

They actually work very fast (90 msec to full deflection) and are only deployed when needed to reduce the bending moment the winglet imparts.
Click to expand...

Interesting, so these additional control surfaces work by compensating up and downdraft, and the reason "it works" is because they deflect quicker than the time it takes for the wing to flex within its normal "flex envelope"?
 
peppy said:
Few Cirrus owners fly at best power. Most fly well when run LOP.
Click to expand...

Yap, that was exactly the case with the two SR20s I have flown. Run very smooth well past the peak on the LOP side. (both have original factory injectors)
 
flyingmoose said:
So how are they controlled? Electric acuators using an accelerometer?
Click to expand...

As far as I know there are a set of accelerometers in the airplane that specifically sense turbulence. As soon as the bump starts TACS are automatically deployed to reduce the wingloading. It's capable of sending a new command to TACS every 1/8th of a second.
 
Rotor said:
The orange control device (we call them TACS -- Tamarack Active Control Surfaces) is what makes these "Active" winglets.

They actually work very fast (90 msec to full deflection) and are only deployed when needed to reduce the bending moment the winglet imparts. In flight, I don't feel them deploy (I have to physically be looking at the winglet to know that they are working). The drag they impart is very minimal -- since they are deployed very quick and for a very short time and you are getting the benefit of reduced induced drag from the winglets. This is what allows you to have all the benefits that winglets provide -- without the extra weight that current passive winglets need in wing reinforcements. FYI: they move up (+g) or down (-g) as needed.

By the way, since it is a Load Alleviation System, it should reduce inspection intervals, not increase them. Increased inspection intervals is a characteristic of older, passive winglets.

To show them in the pictures, I manually deployed them (not an option in the production versions as they will be fully automatic).

Great discussions. Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

Where you the guy from the summit that explained this whole this to me by any chance?
 
flyingmoose said:
Kind of little setup they have there. They call them an active winglet. I suppose it has something to do with that little aileron type device. I will be interested to read or see more about this. I actually just did my first real trip in a cirrus a couple days ago and it was nice but it drinks a lot of gas.

Cheers



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

The one I fly uses 9 per hour at 65%. That's pretty darn good--same as a C172 and 40 kts faster.
 
Dynasty22 said:
This morning at 5500 feet in an SR-20 we were running 7.9-8.0 GPH, getting 140 TAS.
Click to expand...

And if you go to 65% at 7000 you'll get 145-150 (if you have wheel pants) at about 9 gph.
 
Dynasty22 said:
This morning at 5500 feet in an SR-20 we were running 7.9-8.0 GPH, getting 140 TAS.
Click to expand...

spiderweb said:
And if you go to 65% at 7000 you'll get 145-150 (if you have wheel pants) at about 9 gph.
Click to expand...

I don't really fly the Cirrus that much but that sounds a little too optimistic. I remember seeing 10-11gph at 140kts LOP.
Do you guys fly with that manual throttle quadrant where you can control the RPMs manually? I hear it decreases your fuel consumption.
 
so you have two more tips throwing vortices, more gaps adding drag, etc. i'm looking forward to real life side by side testing between a plane that is equipped and one that isn't.
 
First it was swept tails, then it was T-tails, now it's winglets. The airliner, and jets have them therefore it must be cool. At the speeds Cirru fly, do you think it really matters? Maybe it does, but I haven't seen any data to support that. Has anyone?
 
Just out of curiosity, what happens if one of those little orange flapper thingies fails? And is there a more technical term for the little orange flapper thingies?
 
Anthony said:
First it was swept tails, then it was T-tails, now it's winglets. The airliner, and jets have them therefore it must be cool. At the speeds Cirru fly, do you think it really matters? Maybe it does, but I haven't seen any data to support that. Has anyone?
Click to expand...

Winglets aren't just for looks. They improve the wings efficiency by separating high pressure under the wing and the low pressure above the wing. Sort of like extending the wing just without the extra drag.
Also they reduce the wingtip vortices.



tonycondon said:
so you have two more tips throwing vortices, more gaps adding drag, etc. i'm looking forward to real life side by side testing between a plane that is equipped and one that isn't.
Click to expand...

What do you mean "two more"?
If you add a winglet your wingtip stops producing vortices and the winglet starts producing less vortices (see image bellow).

winglets.jpg
 
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jpower said:
Just out of curiosity, what happens if one of those little orange flapper thingies fails? And is there a more technical term for the little orange flapper thingies?
Click to expand...

You will need to stay bellow your Va until you can get them fixed.

They are called TACS (Tamarack Active Control Surfaces).
 
MachFly said:
Winglets aren't just for looks. They improve the wings efficiency by separating high pressure under the wing and the low pressure above the wing. Sort of like extending the wing just without the extra drag.
Also they reduce the wingtip vortices.





What do you mean "two more"?
If you add a winglet your wingtip stops producing vortices and the winglet starts producing less vortices (see image bellow).

winglets.jpg
Click to expand...

you have another deflected control surface. it's like a little wing hanging off the back of your big wing, and like any wing it's trailing corners are throwing off vortices. maybe the little gust alleviation thingies need winglets :D
 
tonycondon said:
you have another deflected control surface. it's like a little wing hanging off the back of your big wing, and like any wing it's trailing corners are throwing off vortices. maybe the little gust alleviation thingies need winglets :D
Click to expand...

If a winglet is installed your main wing will no longer produce wing vortices because it does not end there, it ends at the winglet. Wing vortices are produced because high pressure gets mixed with the low pressure, if there is a winglet in the way it can not mix with the low pressure in that location.
 
jpower said:
Just out of curiosity, what happens if one of those little orange flapper thingies fails? And is there a more technical term for the little orange flapper thingies?
Click to expand...

MachFly said:
You will need to stay bellow your Va until you can get them fixed.

They are called TACS (Tamarack Active Control Surfaces).
Click to expand...

http://eaa.org/news/2012/releases/2012-10-11_tamarack-aerospace-introduces-active-winglets.pdf
Interesting stuff. Have they put TACS on big jets too or is it just not worth it?
 
MachFly said:
Winglets aren't just for looks. They improve the wings efficiency by separating high pressure under the wing and the low pressure above the wing. Sort of like extending the wing just without the extra drag.
Also they reduce the wingtip vortices.
Click to expand...


I understand that, but at the speeds Cirri fly, do they really matter?
 
MachFly said:
You will need to stay bellow your Va until you can get them fixed.

They are called TACS (Tamarack Active Control Surfaces).
Click to expand...

Thanks :)

That would be a real bummer to have them fail...I wonder how you'd ever know if you weren't constantly checking.
 
Anthony said:
I understand that, but at the speeds Cirri fly, do they really matter?
Click to expand...

At the summit I asked the guy how much more economic this makes the Cirrus, unfortunately I don't remember exactly what he said but I remember it was something significant, something around 2gph. But don't quote me on this.


Also regarding the speeds, Diamond is putting winglets on all their aircraft now, and I'm not aware of anything that Diamond ever did just for the sake of increasing sales so they must think that winglets are useful. I have winglets but there has never been a twinstar without them so I can't compare it.
 
numl0ck said:
http://eaa.org/news/2012/releases/2012-10-11_tamarack-aerospace-introduces-active-winglets.pdf
Interesting stuff. Have they put TACS on big jets too or is it just not worth it?
Click to expand...

They are primarily doing this for large jets and using the Cirrus only as a test platform. You can still buy them for the Cirrus if you want but the original purpose of it was not for the Cirrus.


rpadula said:
Is that duct tape holding that wing together!?!? :eek::D
Click to expand...

I don't know what that is.
 
MachFly said:
At the summit I asked the guy how much more economic this makes the Cirrus, unfortunately I don't remember exactly what he said but I remember it was something significant, something around 2gph. But don't quote me on this.


Also regarding the speeds, Diamond is putting winglets on all their aircraft now, and I'm not aware of anything that Diamond ever did just for the sake of increasing sales so they must think that winglets are useful. I have winglets but there has never been a twinstar without them so I can't compare it.
Click to expand...

If it is 2 GPH, that is significant. I understand you are uncertain about the number, but again, that is much more than I would think. Good info. Thanks.
 
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