New case against flight tracking

But ADS-B flight data is NOT personal financial info. That is as logical as saying "replace metal detector wand with cattle prod and ask yourself how you feel about TSA checkpoints".
It is if you are an exec in a publicly traded company. Where you travel can be considered insider information, and disclosing that information is a violation of federal law. Just ask Martha Stewart about how that works....
 
T.S. should simply keep secret just where and when her concerts are going to be, and announce in the morning where the ticketholders should appear. Then no crazies would know in time to endanger her.

Getting the time of arrival from flight tracking is too little advance notice to make a move in time, but any one who knows when the shows will be can get a suitable spot way ahead of time, and pose a real threat.

Phony issue, for such a person that floods the airwaves and internet with her every move.
Yes, she's OK with her whereabouts being public and all-over social media if it's about her concerts or celebrity appearances but if that public info is about her jet - cease and desist! As for the guy mentioning the license plate issue, most people that own jets (speaking from experience lol) don't have the registration in their name - most of the time they're registered to a company.
 
It is if you are an exec in a publicly traded company. Where you travel can be considered insider information, and disclosing that information is a violation of federal law. Just ask Martha Stewart about how that works....
Again, if you are an exec in a publicly traded company, and you cannot figure out how to shield your travel info with corporate structure such as an aircraft leaseback, then you probably should not be an exec in a publicly traded company.
 
Again, if you are an exec in a publicly traded company, and you cannot figure out how to shield your travel info with corporate structure such as an aircraft leaseback, then you probably should not be an exec in a publicly traded company.
I'm not sure if you're arguing that government transparency requires that nationwide ADS-B data dissemination be facilitated, as is generally currently the case, or if you're arguing that its not a privacy concern because the methods to circumvent this dissemination are so easy and readily available, in which case the dissemination itself seems pointless.

I'm all for government transparency as a general rule, but my gut check on such things is how might I feel if the same rules were applied to automobiles. Yes, a car is government-mandated to carry an identifying license plate, analogous to N-numbers on aircraft. Yes, when I go anywhere, my identification can be readily observed. This is good is some cases, like to track down a hit-and-run driver.

However, most states put limitations on the general public's access to lookup the ownership of a given license plate. I'm not aware of any state that has this information instantly available on the internet for free and without any stated purpose, nor identification of the requestor.

Moreover, while I can observe any given car/license plate combo that passes by on the street, and even hypothetically follow it where it goes in public, the public is not provided with a means to track the same vehicle wherever it goes across the country. I suggest that with the prevalence of EZPass and cashless tolls, that it is not too far from being possible to do with cars.
 
We're relying on the aircraft to self-announce its GPS position? How tough could it be to design software that "modifies" the outgoing position data so that your ADS-B never tattles on you that you crossed into restricted airspace, or busted an altitude? With what consequences to traffic separation? To those places NOT affiliated with Walt Disney where security actually requires an airspace restriction?
ADSB requires an operating mode C transponder, so if the ADSB is reporting one position and the radar/transponder is reporting something different...
 
Here is food for thought. We had Mode C transponders and later Mode S transponders without all of this public access to aircraft tracking. Why did adding GPS position to the data require a change in accessibility?
 
Again, if you are an exec in a publicly traded company, and you cannot figure out how to shield your travel info with corporate structure such as an aircraft leaseback, then you probably should not be an exec in a publicly traded company.
It's not about whether it's possible to shield the info. It's about a reasonable expectation of privacy.

The fact that the government has information does not imply that all of that information should be made public in real-time with universal access for anyone on the planet.
 
Here is food for thought. We had Mode C transponders and later Mode S transponders without all of this public access to aircraft tracking. Why did adding GPS position to the data require a change in accessibility?
Because it was convenient for a couple of engineers when they wrote the specification. (said sarcastically, I have no idea if there was a reason, I just have not seen one, and it makes no sense to me from a cyber security view)

Tim
 
Because it was convenient for a couple of engineers when they wrote the specification. (said sarcastically, I have no idea if there was a reason, I just have not seen one, and it makes no sense to me from a cyber security view)

Tim
The real answer probably isn't too far off from "Because we could." Digitization of the data and massively cheap computer storage makes it possible to save and search lots of "Big Data". I imagine this is a small and relatively insignificant example.
 
I can’t type in your number and see where you are flying from Liveatc. I also can’t get an alert that you are flying From Liveatc.

just a minor way I know someone was injured by this information. A guys ex girlfriend had a restraining order on him. Every time he flew she’d get the alert and call the police and claim he was circling above her, stalking her. He eventually gave up and sold the plane.

So an abuse of justice is a reason for reducing aviation safety? The crazy ex girlfriend should have been arrested and fined.
 
Here is food for thought. We had Mode C transponders and later Mode S transponders without all of this public access to aircraft tracking. Why did adding GPS position to the data require a change in accessibility?
Mode S can be tracked as well via a process called “multilateration”.

The reason all this is so commonplace now is “cheap, software defined radio”. A USB stick that could be used to receive digital TV, can be tuned to a different frequency (ADSB on 1090mhz) via software. These sticks cost about $20…
 
The real answer probably isn't too far off from "Because we could." Digitization of the data and massively cheap computer storage makes it possible to save and search lots of "Big Data". I imagine this is a small and relatively insignificant example.
Because we could, and inertia are the most likely answers. ADS-B actually dates back to the late 90s if memory serves. But at no point did the FAA every think about updating it to deal with cyber security, privacy or anything remotely related.

Tim
 
How does publishing real time flight tracking on the internet provide safety?
The government does not publish ADS-B on the internet. FlightAware obtains that information from crowd-sourced ground based receivers, which it cross references with flight plans via ASDI.

BTW, since this bothers you so much, have you added your aircraft to the ASDI block list?
 
The government does not publish ADS-B on the internet. FlightAware obtains that information from crowd-sourced ground based receivers, which it cross references with flight plans via ASDI.

BTW, since this bothers you so much, have you added your aircraft to the ASDI block list?
If you do add it to the ASDI block list, I would advise the “source blocking” option since the FAA will literally give the feed to anyone who asks.
 
ASDI feed is no more, but the same data is now available through FAA SWIM. To obtain a SWIM feed of the data, a company has to support the LADD privacy and block public tracking for LADD participants. There are two levels supported, within FAA data or if the LADD participant chooses, the data can be blocked for public tracking, but provided for private tracking.
 
Makes no difference to me, all they have to do is see my type on Flight Aware and they know it’s me. No N-number required. Luckily I don’t have any insane ex-girlfriends or tax collectors tracking me at the moment, but I’d sure like it if the FA data (and Foreflight) included Mode C data only to anybody except ATC specifically, not any other level or function of government, not police, not individuals.

Its completely beyond me that anybody would defend the current default-visible aircraft tracking situation, but OTOH there are people in e.g. Sweden (and probably here too) who think it’s perfectly correct that anybody should be able to look up anybody else’s income on a government website, as public data available to all. There are people who either profit from tracking individuals, or just don’t get where allowing it might take them (or us collectively). Go figure. The only defense against people like that in the US is a collective legal push to marginalize their opinions based on higher principle. Where do I sign up? I’ve got my Visa card ready to go.
 
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I can’t type in your number and see where you are flying from Liveatc. I also can’t get an alert that you are flying From Liveatc.
We're probably only a couple years away from fully automated real time transcription of LiveATC feeds given the current state of machine learning.
 
just a minor way I know someone was injured by this information. A guys ex girlfriend had a restraining order on him. Every time he flew she’d get the alert and call the police and claim he was circling above her, stalking her. He eventually gave up and sold the plane.

Hmm, but the ADSB track would show that he was not circling her house. Unless he was.
 
Hmm, but the ADSB track would show that he was not circling her house. Unless he was.
I repeat. The cops still have to interview him when the complaint is made. She didn’t tell the cops she was using adsb, she would just call them when she got the alert and claim he was circling her house. The guy had to show them every time that he was not.
 
Hmm, but the ADSB track would show that he was not circling her house. Unless he was.

* substitute aircraft for he and that becomes a more precise statement. LE should still need some probable cause to connect the pilot to the aircraft.
 
* substitute aircraft for he and that becomes a more precise statement. LE should still need some probable cause to connect the pilot to the aircraft.
That's not substantially different from photo-based radar used for traffic tickets. The responsibility lies with the owner/registrant of the vehicle until proven otherwise.
 
That is a completely different issue that has nothing to do with ADS-B. The N Number registry is public information because that is required by law. Your issue is with Congress, who published the CFR.
It's not required by law, it's just not prohibited (like airman data which is SUPPOSED to be covered by the privacy act that the FAA just decides to ignore).
 
Communications Act of 1934 gives US citizens the right to receive any transmission over the RF spectrum.
Alas, that also is not true. Specific parts of the RF spectrum have indeed been regulated by law subsequently (notably the ECPA).
 
Here is food for thought. We had Mode C transponders and later Mode S transponders without all of this public access to aircraft tracking. Why did adding GPS position to the data require a change in accessibility?
MODE C or MODE S to get a position requires you to use active radar... you know, a spinning antenna that can send the interrogation and figure out where the reply is coming from (and suppress the false returns that come from that system). Getting the identity and position from UAT or mode S ES just requires a passive receiver.
 
I do not have Nate's level of verbosity, but I did find we had similar viewpoints very often, especially around cybersecurity. I have not talked seen him online, or heard any updates in a few years. I hope he is doing better.

Tim

I’m lurking. And doing “okay-ish”. lol
 
MODE C or MODE S to get a position requires you to use active radar... you know, a spinning antenna that can send the interrogation and figure out where the reply is coming from (and suppress the false returns that come from that system). Getting the identity and position from UAT or mode S ES just requires a passive receiver.

Technically not true. The spinny part anyway.

The system that triggers regular Mode C transponders in the KASE valley, determines aircraft position by time domain to multiple fixed receiver sites and has no moving antenna parts.

A single transmitter site triggers the aircraft transponder. Then the other sites receive and a computer calculates the time difference to each receiver to determine aircraft location.

Pretty nifty stuff.
 
Technically not true. The spinny part anyway.

The system that triggers regular Mode C transponders in the KASE valley, determines aircraft position by time domain to multiple fixed receiver sites and has no moving antenna parts.

A single transmitter site triggers the aircraft transponder. Then the other sites receive and a computer calculates the time difference to each receiver to determine aircraft location.

Pretty nifty stuff.
This can (and is) done with amateur receivers working together by ADSBexchange, FlightAware, and other sites.
 
Technically not true. The spinny part anyway.

The system that triggers regular Mode C transponders in the KASE valley, determines aircraft position by time domain to multiple fixed receiver sites and has no moving antenna parts.

A single transmitter site triggers the aircraft transponder. Then the other sites receive and a computer calculates the time difference to each receiver to determine aircraft location.

Pretty nifty stuff.
That means that every mode C (and S) plane out there will respond to the interrogation at once? How is that resolved? I understand how you could do it with mode S.
 
That means that every mode C (and S) plane out there will respond to the interrogation at once? How is that resolved? I understand how you could do it with mode S.

Great point. Never thought about it. Ha. No clue how the Germans that made it dealt with that.

The replies would be time spaced by distance from the transmit antenna — perhaps they cheat a little knowing rarely are two aircraft equidistant down valley?

(But that’s not true since inbounds and outbounds pass on opposite sides of the valley.)

Definitely predated widespread use of Mode S. It’s been up there a long time. Hmm.

Trying to remember the semi-scientific made up term the company that made it, called it.
 
That means that every mode C (and S) plane out there will respond to the interrogation at once? How is that resolved? I understand how you could do it with mode S.

Take into account propagation delays. I presume the systems have a really good clock and sync'd.
 
That means that every mode C (and S) plane out there will respond to the interrogation at once? How is that resolved? I understand how you could do it with mode S.
All Mode C transponders at the same distance from the interrogator will get the interrogation signal at the same time on 1030 MHz. After a 3 uSec delay, each transponder will start the transmission of the reply on 1090 MHz. Each nanosecond of time difference represents one foot of additional distance from the receiver. Precision to the nearest 0.2 NM is what the surveillance requirement is with ADS-B, so that is to the nearest 1.2 microsecond. So although aircraft at the same distance from the interrogator will generate a reply at the same time, the distance to each of the multilateration receivers will be different when the aircraft are not at the same position. The multilateration receivers are going to be able to see aircraft responding to the same interrogation because of the very precise time differences they use to determine the position. My understanding is that ASDEX ground position radar uses similar technology, because the round trip time for a transponder query to reply is too imprecise. The 3 microsecond delay alone between the end of the interrogation and the beginning of the reply is more than a half mile in position, so precise timing is used to triangulate the position of the aircraft on the ground.
 
I would be happy if all the posters would stop calling adsb “voluntary” transmissions.

I know there will never be full agreement on these topics but just stop with the voluntary b.s.
 
Not wrong at all. No right is absolute. The exercise of every right is balanced against the common good, even those rights protected by the Constitution. The classic example is shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater. Or restricting gun carry at the Super Bowl.

What your example showed is that balance is required. Any medical benefit gained by the Nazi experiments was far outweighed by the horrific immorality of their actions.

I don't think the same conclusion applies to this topic, where the harm is mostly theoretical. Unless someone can provide an IRL example of negative consequences from flight tracking, the argument against it so far boils down to "I just don't like it."
there is no law or federal prohibition from yelling 'fire' in a theater.

And while people always default to the Nazi's bad-uummmkay? The US government gave native Americans blankets infected with smallpox, and African Americans were injected with syphilis to name a few things our government has done.
 
The US government gave native Americans blankets infected with smallpox, and African Americans were injected with syphilis to name a few things our government has done.
The fable about smallpox blankets is just that - a fable. There is zero evidence that it ever actually occurred. In fact, the history professor who first wrote about it was fired from his position at University of Colorado for fabrication and falsification of evidence in conjunction with that very myth.


 
there is no law or federal prohibition from yelling 'fire' in a theater.

And while people always default to the Nazi's bad-uummmkay? The US government gave native Americans blankets infected with smallpox, and African Americans were injected with syphilis to name a few things our government has done.
Neither is true. There is no verified factual account of the blankets legend. In the Tuskegee Experiement, no one was injected with syphilis. People who had syphilis were not treated, but no one was given the disease.
 
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