Never got this question

P

pquinniii

Guest
i had another flight instructor call me today with a question. A student was telling him that he was taught from the military that on the 'route' portion of the ifr flight plan, the final fix MUST be the FAF of the instrument approach he was going to use at his destination. Now I know that is incorrect, but what the flight instructor wanted from me was "where would i find that in writing?". I've wore my eyes out scouring the FAR's and AIM, and cannot find in writing anything that says what the final fix on the route section should be. Does anyone have any clues??
 
You'd find it in the relevant military instructions and manuals because that's the way they want their crews to do it (or at least, that's how I was taught in both the Navy and the Air Force a couple decades ago). That does not, however, mean the FAA requires it that way, and that's why you can't find it in the FAR's, AIM, or IPH.
 
Ron Levy said:
You'd find it in the relevant military instructions and manuals because that's the way they want their crews to do it (or at least, that's how I was taught in both the Navy and the Air Force a couple decades ago). That does not, however, mean the FAA requires it that way, and that's why you can't find it in the FAR's, AIM, or IPH.
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Think of it as an OpSpec.
 
I doubt he was taught to file to the FAF, probably meant IAF.

This from DOD FLIP GP (General Planning Document).

Item (9) ROUTE OF FLIGHT

f. For IFR flight plans the last fix entered is either:
(1) The identifier of the nearest appropriate Initial
Approach Fix, Navigational Aid, first point of intended landing, or
published fix which most clearly establishes the route of flight to
the destination or
(2) The coded identifier of a Standard Terminal Arrival
(STAR), e.g. "BOIDS9," placed after the transition fix.
 
We run into this all the time. Pilots will take the military flight plan DD175 and call the FAA briefer to file their flight plan. Then they give the IAF as a part of the route and the briefer will tell you it's not required for the FAA. Usually on ILS is where the confusion develops. As stated above the GP is the doc. where the info is.
 
drizzt76 said:
We run into this all the time. Pilots will take the military flight plan DD175 and call the FAA briefer to file their flight plan. Then they give the IAF as a part of the route and the briefer will tell you it's not required for the FAA.
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They will? I generally file to an IAF and have never been told by a briefer not to bother.
 
I don't file it so I don't run into it. But I know pilots that get off the phone and said..."OK I guess they don't want the IAF." Or when I tell someone to file it I tell them to leave the IAF off. I sure they can file it but I don't bother. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks I guess.
 
pquinniii said:
I've wore my eyes out scouring the FAR's and AIM, and cannot find in writing anything that says what the final fix on the route section should be. Does anyone have any clues??
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If it is not in there it is not required. Your friend is mistaken. FAA IFR flight plans do not need to go to a IAF. You could file direct from one airport to another. May not be the wisest thing and your clearence may not be that but you can legally do it.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'm was pretty sure that's what the answer was, but like any good CFI, I wanted to have a second opinion if I wasn't sure. Thanks again.:)
 
drizzt76 said:
I don't file it so I don't run into it. But I know pilots that get off the phone and said..."OK I guess they don't want the IAF."
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Huh? Let's make sure we're not talking apples and oranges.

When I talk about filing to an IAF, I may be misstating it slightly - I'm actually talking about filing to an IAF that is part of the enroute structure or to an enroute fix that begins a transition route.

I can sort of see a rejection of an IAF that is not part of the enroute structure - in theory, if you file V23 to FIXXE and FIXXE is not on V23, you have put in a "can't compute" item (I've seen that in DUAT). OTOH, I don't see the basis for FSS to say no to a fix that is on the airway you listed in the last part of the route.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I can sort of see a rejection of an IAF that is not part of the enroute structure - in theory, if you file V23 to FIXXE and FIXXE is not on V23, you have put in a "can't compute" item (I've seen that in DUAT).
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This is an example that I'm refering to. On a DD175 we (as military,per the GP) have to include FIXXE (the IAF).
 
drizzt76 said:
This is an example that I'm refering to. On a DD175 we (as military,per the GP) have to include FIXXE (the IAF).
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Interesting. As I understand it, rejection of V123 -> FIXXE (off airway) by "the computer" is based on a "you can't get there from here" concept.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
http://skyvector.com/perl/code?id=KAPA (switch to the L-chart)

Approaching KAPA, the IAF for the ILS35R is CASSE. A plan for V389 FQF CASSE would be accepted since FQF - CASSE is a published transition from V389.

OTOH, V81 CASSE would get a "### V81 doesn't go from BRK to CASSE" error from DUAT because CASSE isn't a fix on the airway and the system doesn't seem to accept "close enough".

OTTH, V81 HOHUM CASSE would be acceptable since HOHUM is a point on the airway and once there, the system will accept the direct route to the IAF.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting. As I understand it, rejection of V123 -> FIXXE (off airway) by "the computer" is based on a "you can't get there from here" concept.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
http://skyvector.com/perl/code?id=KAPA (switch to the L-chart)

Approaching KAPA, the IAF for the ILS35R is CASSE. A plan for V389 FQF CASSE would be accepted since FQF - CASSE is a published transition from V389.

OTOH, V81 CASSE would get a "### V81 doesn't go from BRK to CASSE" error from DUAT because CASSE isn't a fix on the airway and the system doesn't seem to accept "close enough".

OTTH, V81 HOHUM CASSE would be acceptable since HOHUM is a point on the airway and once there, the system will accept the direct route to the IAF.
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This is the way the military means it also. Trying to file 'close enough' is a mis-understanding of the rule.
 
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