Never a bad CFI

Mtns2Skies

Mtns2Skies

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Mtns2Skies
Over the past years I see a lot of people complaining about CFIs... I'm not at all saying it's the student's fault but I personally have never had a bad CFI. I've flown with 8 CFIs on various occasions whether it was primary training or a checkout flight and I enjoyed each one of them (1 move, CFIs changing jobs and I've changed airports). Have I just been lucky? Is it my personality? Do I learn quickly? I dunno but I'm still in contact with a majority of those CFIs and I certainly consider them friends.

There was one CFI that wasn't a bad CFI but was just a tad boring and another that was a great instructor but his schedule didnt match mine. The other's I've spent a good amount of time learning from and I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it.

Anyone else have similar or opposing experiences?
 
In more than 20 years of flying (including checkouts and FRs), I can only say I ran into one questionable CFI. But that's only if you think a CFI taking a new private pilot up for a checkout in a 172 and doing hammerhead stalls is a bad one :eek:
 
While it's a bit short of a "bad" CFI, I've had experiences with one who had difficulty diagnosing problems, that other CFIs did not have.

It seems unlikely that CFIs would neatly categorize into such a dichotomy. More likely, there is a spectrum, and multiple dimensions. What, exactly, does a "bad" CFI mean anyway?
 
I've flown with 5 or so. I did my ppl and my ir with the same guy because I really got along with him well. Unfortunately he wasn't nearly as good as when I did my ppl. We clashed a lot during my ir and ultimately I stopped flying with him a couple days before my check ride. So unfortunately it does happen, and I feel bad that things with him couldn't have ended on a better note. But when my concerns were not listened to and he just brushed it off I was done. I passed my ride on my own accord and never got a congratulations from him. Every other instructor, and him on my ppl, has been wonderful and I learned a lot.
 
Over the years, the process of minting new CFI's has changed to the point of being almost unrecognizable. After WW-II/Korea, the primary qualification was the ability to fly the airplane, without much emphasis on communication and teaching skills. Many good pilots weren't all that great at teaching, but the carry-over mindset from the military was more of a "shape-up or ship-out" than a "let's figure out what's wrong and help you fix it" philosophy.

Then at some point (in the 70's when I started thinking about instructing) the ability to talk and fly at the same time became important, along with the ability to recognize and quickly correct common student problems. During these years, the number of CFI's who had never shaved seemed to be almost nil.

Then the CFI mills started cranking out the time-builder kids with barely enough time to fill a single page of legal-size notebook paper. Some of them seem to be pretty good insofar as the basics are concerned, but many seem to lack some of the X/C and weather skills that would be handy for students to attain.

I don't know how they interact with new students, but don't think many are prone to yelling based on reports from students that have been exposed to their teaching.
 
I've liked all my instructors.

Most (all?) of the credit has to go to the FBO at my local airport. The owner runs a tight ship, and if a new CFI can get through his hiring interview, chances are high that he/she will be a good instructor, and a joy to fly with.
 
I've had more bad than good, but I usually expect quite a bit from someone I am paying to provide a service. Hearing "I don't know" with no commitment to find the answer is unacceptable to me, as is any CFI that repeats knowledge that he cannot prove with some sort of reference.

Lately, however, I have had some really good CFIs, so I suspect that trend may be shifting as more of the CFIs around are from the information era, instead of being from the "I once heard" era.
 
One very bad, one good and one so excellent that I have no words to describe. And then there's the guy across the apron from me. Although a rated CFII, he wasn't involved in my instruction. I asked him to go up with me just before my checkride because of the dubious distinction of being able to put my airplane at max weight. Something I hadn't experienced and a condition I would also have with the examiner. In the process, he offered a couple of insightful hints that let me master short-field landings.
 
I have had one over the years. It wasn't that he was a bad instructor, just that he was young and wanted an airline job. He actually no showed me a couple times. Thats when we parted ways.
 
As a frequent participant in several pilot forums I have seen many instances in which a poster questioned something that his or her instructor has said. In the majority of such cases, the CFI was completely wrong. These are instructors who parrot what their instructors told them (without bothering to go to the source document as a crosscheck) and thus pass on old wive's tales as gospel. When we break that cycle we will make a huge leap forward.

My advice to students is that they not accept everything their instructor says at face value but to ask 'Where does it say that?" in the POH, AIM, FAR, etc.

Bob Gardner
 
wabower said:
Over the years, the process of minting new CFI's has changed to the point of being almost unrecognizable. After WW-II/Korea, the primary qualification was the ability to fly the airplane, without much emphasis on communication and teaching skills. Many good pilots weren't all that great at teaching, but the carry-over mindset from the military was more of a "shape-up or ship-out" than a "let's figure out what's wrong and help you fix it" philosophy.

Then at some point (in the 70's when I started thinking about instructing) the ability to talk and fly at the same time became important, along with the ability to recognize and quickly correct common student problems. During these years, the number of CFI's who had never shaved seemed to be almost nil.

Then the CFI mills started cranking out the time-builder kids with barely enough time to fill a single page of legal-size notebook paper. Some of them seem to be pretty good insofar as the basics are concerned, but many seem to lack some of the X/C and weather skills that would be handy for students to attain.

I don't know how they interact with new students, but don't think many are prone to yelling based on reports from students that have been exposed to their teaching.
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My real CFI (for all things after PVT ASEL) never said much, just "SAT" or "UNSAT"
 
I think most of the time it's a bad instructor/student match.
But...what do you think of this: Early in my training I went to this flight school at a class D airport. (great oportunity to learn radio, ATIS etc). For a total of 14 hours the instructor never had me use the radio...or the rudder pedals. Never did takeoffs or landings. He'll fly us to the practice area and keep checking his watch while I did ground reference maneuvers. I figured, when I was ready for the other stuff he'll move me on to that. Finally one day he cancelled at the last minute, when I was on my way to the school. The owner had me fly with the chief CFI, who got real mad when he realized how little I had been taught. He said by that point I "should have" been doing takeoffs, landings, pattern, stalls, and radio. I switched schools.
Would you say this guy was a bad CFI?
 
Considering I did all the radio work, take offs and landings from my intro flight on... I'd say definitely.
 
I can count on one hand the number of truly bad (IMHO) CFI's I've run into over the years. Fortunately, they seem to be few and far between. What I have run into many times over the years are good CFIs who are just burned out. Like many of us, they used flight instruction as a tool to build time and as a career stepping stone. Once they passed a certain point it seemed they lost interest. It's not that they can't teach, but if your heart isn't in it you probably ought to be doing something else.
 
DogDaddy said:
I think most of the time it's a bad instructor/student match.
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+1

I went through 4 instructors going through my PPL. I feel as with the first 3, that I reached a point where I felt I wasn't getting any further, so I switched. That having been said, I did get a lot from each of them and am grateful for their role in my training. I think the biggest thing that I had to do was figure out what *I* needed, and not hesitate to keep looking until I found that match. It also helped to figure out what my barrier to learning were and address them.
 
I've had two instructors and they have both been great. Both young guys destined for better things than working for pennies on the dollar but great people none the less. They knew when to push me, they knew when to speak, they didn't raise their voices or make me feel uncomfortable when I made mistakes but they talked them out on the ground, gave me study materials to read up on to learn more about it and the following session I was back with a smile.

Only one CFI I turned down during interviews, but it wasn't because he wasn't nice, I just wasn't interested in his over the top religiosity. Be religious all, but don't pray for me or make me fear for my soul while trying to learn something completely new. :)
 
I've never had a bad CFI, as in incompetent pilot. I've had 2 that I never scheduled a second flight with, as in bad teacher. I'm not much for the screamers or the over dramatic.
 
Dead Stick said:
I can count on one hand the number of truly bad (IMHO) CFI's I've run into over the years. Fortunately, they seem to be few and far between. What I have run into many times over the years are good CFIs who are just burned out. Like many of us, they used flight instruction as a tool to build time and as a career stepping stone. Once they passed a certain point it seemed they lost interest. It's not that they can't teach, but if your heart isn't in it you probably ought to be doing something else.
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What's the difference between a bad CFI and a "good" one who is burned out? Most of us define instruction quality functionally. What an instructor might be capable of is irrelevant if he doesn't deliver it.
 
One thing I have noticed as a student pilot is that the CFI I flew with are competent pilots BUT many lack patience and teaching skills. Just my 2 cents from the half dozen of CFI I burned through already. Yes, it takes time for me, a slow learner to have stuff sink in so I am not going to put 100% of the blame on them. One guy freaked out yesterday when we were practicing engine out emergencies. Well it was an educational learning experience for me to say the least and to not use that guy again for lessons.
 
Each CFI has some blind spots. My CFI was fond of the word "opposite" with explaining what it was opposite to.

Just before touchdown, "Use opposite rudder!"

Did he mean opposite to the direction of the wind, opposite to the way the plane was heading, or the rudder opposite to the one I was pressing? Before I could figure it out, I'd already landed and everything had worked out fine.
 
supernovae said:
Only one CFI I turned down during interviews, but it wasn't because he wasn't nice, I just wasn't interested in his over the top religiosity. Be religious all, but don't pray for me or make me fear for my soul while trying to learn something completely new. :)
Click to expand...

So the CFI was a Holy Roller type? Wow.

David
 
flyingmoose said:
I have had one over the years. It wasn't that he was a bad instructor, just that he was young and wanted an airline job. He actually no showed me a couple times. Thats when we parted ways.
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Same here. My first CFI was brand new and a major disaster. Probably the #1 reason it took so long. He could not diagnose any problem and it became very obvious he was not interested in teaching other than building hours. At the time I had no clue about boards like this and thought it was the norm. And yes, he was a bad instructor.

While working on the instrument, I took one lesson with a certain CFII and never again. Altho not a bad instructor, I didn't like some of his methods (first lesson - take off with hood on). Not long after I discovered he's been banned from teaching AND renting airplanes at two different airports.
 
I think I've flown next to four CFIs in total. None were what I would call bad.
 
I've lost count of all the CFIs I've flown with, at least 4 in all for my private and at least 3 others over the years for flight reviews. All but three were with the flight school where I finished my PPL, where there is almost never more than one CFI at a time, and where the average turnover rate for a CFI is about 6 months. I wouldn't call any of them bad per se, and I only fired one, and not because he was a bad instructor but because he couldn't keep his promise to find me a DPE for my IR checkride before my written expired. Either he was unable to adapt to the new situation after the DPE he had sent all his students to for years lost his designation, and/or he had alienated so many DPEs that he could not find one he trusted to be fair with his students, or he was simply a procrastinator or unwilling to give my upcoming checkride high priority on his to-do list. He never did congratulate me on passing my checkride, though he's otherwise civil with me, and yes that does feel bad. But I wouldn't call him a poor instructor, and he's not one of those CFIs that propagates old wives tales either. He is very much up on the most current regulations and gives very thorough flight reviews.

Of all the CFIs I've flown with, I have the most respect for the one who started me off and soloed me. He is patient, soft-spoken, conservative in his ADM, almost to a fault, and an excellent teacher.
 
Due to my prophesity to obtain checkouts in every FBO that would let me, I already flew with 12 CFIs. None were "bad" in the sense of horror stories, but clearly they all had varying personal styles, not always fully compatible with my style of learning. For example, a local old-timer CFI "John" liked making jokes. Some of those were difficult for a gullible student to get on. A bucket of bearing vacuum was no problem, but when "John" relayed tall tales of FAA/FSDO interpretation of FARs, it was frustrating. A CFI in Colorado, "Ben", just could not help himself to stay off the controls, which really confused me: I could never tell if it was the airplane of "Ben" telling me something. But again, nobody was unprofessional like missing flights or sleeping in flight. I can only conclude that "bad apple" CFIs are very rare.
 
My first CFI got a job with a regional airline.

My second one introduced himself as "Hi, my name is Paul ***, I'm all I'm ever going to be. Let's go flying."

Gotta like that guy.
 
I've flown with many over the years, but out of the one's I flew with consistently, there was only one I didn't really click with. He was also one of the oldest/most experienced of the bunch, but nothing personal. He and I remain friends to this day-his instructional methods just didn't work for me.
 
zaitcev said:
Due to my prophesity to obtain checkouts in every FBO that would let me, I already flew with 12 CFIs. None were "bad" in the sense of horror stories, but clearly they all had varying personal styles, not always fully compatible with my style of learning. For example, a local old-timer CFI "John" liked making jokes. Some of those were difficult for a gullible student to get on. A bucket of bearing vacuum was no problem, but when "John" relayed tall tales of FAA/FSDO interpretation of FARs, it was frustrating. A CFI in Colorado, "Ben", just could not help himself to stay off the controls, which really confused me: I could never tell if it was the airplane of "Ben" telling me something. But again, nobody was unprofessional like missing flights or sleeping in flight. I can only conclude that "bad apple" CFIs are very rare.
Click to expand...
I think I know who you're talking about...
 
I started flying again is 2010. Since then I have flown with at least a dozen CFI's, maybe more. Really. The ones I spent any time with varied from mediocre to great. And then there was one that I flew 20 minutes with and said "don't call me..." Do not know how good he was, just that we could not fly together.

A number of the CFI's were mediocre. Sorry, but that is just not good enough when it comes to flight training.

What do I mean by mediocre? OK, one example. The guy I spent 8.5 hours with to get going again after 34 years off never noticed that I had no clue as to what a stabilized approach was. And he signed off my BFR. Sorry, that is not good enough. For my complex, I tried to go with some guru flight school owner with 15,000 hours. He phoned it in. Not good enough. My tailwheel instructor was fantastic. I flew short checkout rides with some instructors that seemed competent. My LSA transition instructor was very good. I have been doing my IR with a guy that is just OK. I know there are better CFII's out there but he is a club instructor, is pleasant to work with, and is competent enough. After some of my experiences, that is good enough for me.
 
alfadog said:
What do I mean by mediocre? OK, one example. The guy I spent 8.5 hours with to get going again after 34 years off never noticed that I had no clue as to what a stabilized approach was. And he signed off my BFR. Sorry, that is not good enough. For my complex, I tried to go with some guru flight school owner with 15,000 hours. He phoned it in. Not good enough. My tailwheel instructor was fantastic. I flew short checkout rides with some instructors that seemed competent. My LSA transition instructor was very good. I have been doing my IR with a guy that is just OK. I know there are better CFII's out there but he is a club instructor, is pleasant to work with, and is competent enough. After some of my experiences, that is good enough for me.
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Similar list of mediocre: chief pilot who had me doing stalls over the Erie tower on a stage check (then on debrief said that I was nervous), CFI who stated that if he hadn't demonstrated a maneuver (other CFI's demos were not sufficient) then there was no way I should attempt to fly it, same CFI wanted to be on the controls (along with me) for landing, another CFI who stated the engine wasn't doing any work doing run-up but still demanded full rich (at 5,500 MSL).

There are some very good CFIs and CFIIs. Not all the good ones will be good for a particular pilot at any point in their pilot travels. There are also some very bad CFIs and CFIIs out there. I wish I had a couple hours back from those bozos (but that's a different thread).
 
I counted it up from memory. Since 2010, I think no less than (16) CFI's have put an entry in my logbook. Why so many? Three were from the club, two checkouts are required and I flew with a third to work on my landings before being signed off. Two were straight airplane checkout rides for rental. Two were subs when a regular CFI had to cancel. That covers (7) of them. Of the other (9)

The BFR guy - mediocre
The complex guy - mediocre
The CTLS guy - very good
The Luscombe tw guy - excellent

Another club "guru" that I paid to fly with me to give me some pointers but had nothing of value to offer. I think he was confused as to what an inctructors job is. It is to INSTRUCT. He was a retired airline guy and fresh CFI and a sweet guy so I forgive him that.

That leaves (4) that, in addition to the first BFR guy, I used for my IR. Of those, three did not work out for various reasons, one I could not stand, and the last is the one I plan on finishing my IR with and maybe my Comm, also.

Personally, I think a number of them were "bad" for various reasons, not the least of which was being mediocre.
 
I've had many bad instructors over the years. I've have many good ones too. Don't settle for a bad one, fire him and get a new one. They work for you.
 
DogDaddy said:
I think most of the time it's a bad instructor/student match.
But...what do you think of this: Early in my training I went to this flight school at a class D airport. (great oportunity to learn radio, ATIS etc). For a total of 14 hours the instructor never had me use the radio...or the rudder pedals. Never did takeoffs or landings. He'll fly us to the practice area and keep checking his watch while I did ground reference maneuvers. I figured, when I was ready for the other stuff he'll move me on to that. Finally one day he cancelled at the last minute, when I was on my way to the school. The owner had me fly with the chief CFI, who got real mad when he realized how little I had been taught. He said by that point I "should have" been doing takeoffs, landings, pattern, stalls, and radio. I switched schools.
Would you say this guy was a bad CFI?
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Yes. You got milked.

I went through 5 CFIs for the PPASEL alone, and none of them did crap like that. Some were a better fit for me than others, temperament-wise, but all of them were interested in actually teaching, and not just what was in the Jepp syllabus.
I guess I got lucky, because most of them fit the "hungry young guy building time to move on to turbines" stereotype, yet they took some care and pride in their teaching, and encouraged me to keep moving ahead.

Which is not to say I didn't also get milked a little... but more by the school itself. I could go on for hours about that... and often have, LOL.
CFIs bolted out of there so fast, without looking back, that it added to the students' problems.
 
murphey said:
I didn't like some of his methods (first lesson - take off with hood on)
Click to expand...

The procedure is described on page 7-29 of the Instrument Flying Handbook.
 
alfadog said:
I counted it up from memory. Since 2010, I think no less than (16) CFI's have put an entry in my logbook. Why so many? Three were from the club, two checkouts are required and I flew with a third to work on my landings before being signed off. Two were straight airplane checkout rides for rental. Two were subs when a regular CFI had to cancel. That covers (7) of them. Of the other (9)

The BFR guy - mediocre
The complex guy - mediocre
The CTLS guy - very good
The Luscombe tw guy - excellent

Another club "guru" that I paid to fly with me to give me some pointers but had nothing of value to offer. I think he was confused as to what an inctructors job is. It is to INSTRUCT. He was a retired airline guy and fresh CFI and a sweet guy so I forgive him that.

That leaves (4) that, in addition to the first BFR guy, I used for my IR. Of those, three did not work out for various reasons, one I could not stand, and the last is the one I plan on finishing my IR with and maybe my Comm, also.

Personally, I think a number of them were "bad" for various reasons, not the least of which was being mediocre.
Click to expand...

That's got me thinking of my own list...minus the few I had for stage checks during the PPASEL training, a few rental checkout instructors, and CFIs who let me fly their planes.
I wish I knew more about many of them, what experience they had at the time, and where they ended up. But here are my impressions:


#1: For my intro, which took place a couple years before I really got started (in my mid-30s), and at a different school. About my age, affable and good at selling the product, but also keen on teaching. No idea how well he flies because he let me fly pretty much the whole thing.

#2: Pretty green, younger than me, very professional and well-prepared, good stick and very hip to the regs and theory. He wanted to go fly floats in the Caribbean, and I hope he did. Handled the airplane well.

#3: Another younger guy... impish, casual, a real "natural" pilot... I always picture him showing me how to fly the plane with the door open and one foot on the footrest on the main gear (seatbelt secure, of course). He was the first CFI who I saw "teaching without teaching"... keeping it fun and absorbing, and encouraging me to learn by doing.

#4: Another one younger than me, a serious instructor but more of a "company man". He talked me into moving into a 172 from a 150 to save money, which I agree, looking back, was illogical.

#5: Closer to my age, and probably my favorite PPASEL instructor overall. He also turned wrenches for the school, so it was comforting to have him along. :D
He was very soft-spoken and annoyingly calm, knew the material and the airplanes backwards and forwards, had good weather sense, and was a good stick. He turned me loose for my first solo, after very carefully making sure I was prepared. His dream was to do bush flying overseas for missionary groups, and I think he'd be perfect for that job.

#6: More hours with this young man than the others; I grew fond of him, but he was the nervous type. Always on the controls, or touching radios, etc just as I was about to, etc., etc. But again, he appreciated the gravity of what he was doing, and knew his stuff. He flew well, but planned to go into maintenance to earn more money. :D

#7: Gotta include the first DPE: first guy older than me, bizjet mfr. check airman... pretty aloof, to say the least. He turned out OK for my first check ride, but let's say I would have probably hated doing primary training with him. But when he took over the 172 to land back at home base, it was beautiful to behold. Flying jets had not spoiled his basic skills at all, and damned if I didn't think about that landing during every approach for months afterwards.

#8: First flight review was also a rental checkout, after not flying for 5 months. Different school, too. The CFI was a master at this, and got me through it feeling I got my money's worth.

#9: Won 30 minutes of aerobatics dual in an airshow raffle, and not surprisingly, the master aerobatic pilot was also a great teacher. I wound up paying for a second half-hour. He'd demo a maneuver, then let me try one. He explained what went wrong or right, then we'd do it again. Also tried very hard to give me a feel for what I could do in an upset situation in a 172 or whatever.

#10:Another rental checkout, after landing long because my pax was puking (not my fault!)... he was on my side, and gave me good advice for shorter fields like N07: never make a normal takeoff or landing.

#11: Club checkout: another experienced instructor, and under no corporate pressure.

#12: Took some dual at yet another airport in the middle of a 4-year hiatus...let them know I probably wouldn't be back anytime soon (money). Another very young CFI, and he took the opportunity to carefully observe and learn about what happens to a pilot in this condition. :D

#13: Second flight review, after that long hiatus... this guy was something. Very young but hardcore, with an overseas ATP and three huge binders of his own personal torture material. The oral and the two flights were grueling, and I can't thank him enough for that. He was hard on me, but at no time did I get the impression that he wanted to discourage me.

#14: Tailwheel add-on... 60-yr-old plane, 80-yr-old instructor. He'd been teaching in that airplane for over 40 years, and in his hands it flew like a beautiful bird, even though it's an underpowered tub of drag. He also kindly bundled a basic but complete flight review into our 10 hours together.
He is a grandmaster of "teaching without teaching"... sure, I knew enough about flying in general, so he didn't probe there much, but he also somehow taught me how to land that thing without me really noticing.

#15: Got into gliders with a very small club, and learned the ropes with a pilot who was already a friend; a guy who'd let me fly his RV (from the back) about 10 minutes after we first met. A great stick, irreverent, crude but effective at all times. Very passionate instructor.
The familiarity can interfere with the student/instructor connection, but he has spent many, many hours in the back of a 2-33 and is a walking encyclopedia of airman knowledge, so I learned.

#16: Glider DPE; did my PP-G and commercial with him. He's another one who seems to just be having fun talking about flying or flying with you, but leaves you thinking... which is what it's all about.

Looking back, my overall impression is that some of my most fondly-remembered flights were with good teachers.
 
Wow and I thought that my previous CFI were bad! I guess I am lucky! Anyways one guy yelled at me on a lesson recently and I fired his ass after that nonsense. I have zero tolerance for that since I am PAYING him. Today was a joy the new CFI was patient, easy going and let me actually fly the plane with very little input. Given that the traffic pattern was super busy, I did well. Need a little more practice and the hours of slow flight that I worked on few days ago paid off in the pattern since I had to extend my downwind to base due to tons of traffic today. Did better on radio as well.
 
You were flying today (Monday)? It was moderately busy, no worse, due to the overcast. I was #2 for departure and got a straight-in on my return.

If you consider that busy, you ain't seen nothin' yet.
 
Yep I was flying this afternoon. Well KPAO is busier than KLVK so for me its good experience! I was stuck #4 in pattern several times for landing so the intensive slow flight training paid off the past few days!
 
Were you the guy who went out with Gilead today? I just met him; he's a new-to-the-club CFI, and seems like a nice enough guy. I gave him a couple of new squawks for 9ZL (nothing serious).
 
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