Negotiating repairs with seller after prebuy

Blueangel said:
Airplane is a 1960 Beechcraft Debonair with 6000 total time 1400 SMOH 800 SPOH
Sale price firm at 37K from broker and seller

The squawks are engine gaskets and oil leaks, landing gear and lot of deferred maintenance. I'm waiting to see what seller will offer to fix. They agreed on airworthy items from my conversation and per contract.
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How can anyone advise you on an old airplane, and I mean old, that's got 6000 hours and a high time engine?! Answer is they cannot. It's up to whoever inspects it, and if they are really a good mechanic, familiar with this type beech. Sound like its a lot more than " a few scratches". Is it hangared? Are the logs in order and what does " deferred" mean. Does it mean important things that were not done? Is it in annual? . ( it should come with fresh annual.) personally, with the info at hand, I'd walk. Engines are very expensive! I get the impression it's had lousy care. Rumsfeld would probably say, " too many unknowns" .
 
I took it to the best Beechcraft shop in the area and asked the IA for his honest opinion. Plane needs serious amount of work just to safely fly it. Gonna pass and keep looking. I do see nicer ones for 60-70K that's in my budget. I'm even seeing newer nicer Bonanzas like S35 the fast one around. Yeah spent money on prebuy but it's better than finding a completely corroded aircraft on a 50k annual from hell. Both broker and seller are dishonest lied about aircraft maintenance and condition. The IA at the Beech shop told me that this same broker had brought in another Bonanza recently that came back with serious issues. If they dropped price to like 20k sure I'd spend the money to fix it but they won't do that nor fix the 60 plus airworthy squawks on the plane.
 
@Jim Cooper here is probably what happened and bear in mind this is just my speculation based on the prebuy inspection results:

1. The owners/sellers flew it without doing any real maintenance several years
2. Found shade tree mechanic to sign off with pencil annual aka the $300 special make it barely pass

3. Now they are trying to unload it on a sucker who won't do a real serious prebuy inspection.
 
Prolly a good plan Scott. The S35 is blistering fast plane. It's the pinnacle of v tail design.

Have the spar box inspected carefully for stress cracks. Remediation is costly, but it can be done. Make sure the ruddervator weights are recorded in the logs. They need to be weighed, and then recorded in the logbook.

Edit: Whatever Cruisair says about the planes, believe it. Those guys know their stuff backward and forward on the type. But - they are really picky.
 
Blueangel said:
I took it to the best Beechcraft shop in the area and asked the IA for his honest opinion. Plane needs serious amount of work just to safely fly it. Gonna pass and keep looking. I do see nicer ones for 60-70K that's in my budget. I'm even seeing newer nicer Bonanzas like S35 the fast one around. Yeah spent money on prebuy but it's better than finding a completely corroded aircraft on a 50k annual from hell. Both broker and seller are dishonest lied about aircraft maintenance and condition. The IA at the Beech shop told me that this same broker had brought in another Bonanza recently that came back with serious issues. If they dropped price to like 20k sure I'd spend the money to fix it but they won't do that nor fix the 60 plus airworthy squawks on the plane.
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Yup.... Take them to small claims court and get your prebuy costs back...:yes::yes:
 
If the guy won't budge, is the price OK with you for the condition, if YES buy it, if NO don't.

:dunno:
 
True not sure about taking them to court to recover the prebuy costs and if I'd even win. Anyways I'll make decision tomorrow. Otherwise the sweet S35 I looked at is much nicer and faster plus better panel and interior.
 
Blueangel said:
So my results came back with 12 pages of major squawks found by the Beech shop for a pre buy inspection. Seller will not drop price. How do I negotiate repairs to have seller represented by a large broker to fix these items? Broker will not fix engine issues. Should I run away from buying this plane? A lot of maintenance was deferred according to the shop. Broker represented plane as being hangared and well maintained but results of the prebuy inspection came back as the complete opposite!
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RUN. Don't look back.
 
Agree Mike especially since the seller refused to fix
airworthy issues. I'm looking at much nicer S35
that has not been abused. Besides the V Tail Bos
look way sexier!
 
Blueangel said:
I took it to the best Beechcraft shop in the area and asked the IA for his honest opinion. Plane needs serious amount of work just to safely fly it. Gonna pass and keep looking. I do see nicer ones for 60-70K that's in my budget. I'm even seeing newer nicer Bonanzas like S35 the fast one around. Yeah spent money on prebuy but it's better than finding a completely corroded aircraft on a 50k annual from hell. Both broker and seller are dishonest lied about aircraft maintenance and condition. The IA at the Beech shop told me that this same broker had brought in another Bonanza recently that came back with serious issues. If they dropped price to like 20k sure I'd spend the money to fix it but they won't do that nor fix the 60 plus airworthy squawks on the plane.
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feel free to consider this debonair , could make you a very nice deal and you will not be sorry for the mechanical side of things .
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82014
 
Blueangel said:
Agree Mike especially since the seller refused to fix
airworthy issues. I'm looking at much nicer S35
that has not been abused. Besides the V Tail Bos
look way sexier!
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I'm sure there's no legal precedent to get the prebuy costs back. I doubt if even Judge Judy or an arbitrator would do it. You got your money's worth. It saved you from making a serious mistake. As far as the owner and broker go, it's there business to decide what their selling price is going to be. However, if they KNEW of the unairworthiness and didn't tell you up front, then in my not so humble opinion they should be taken out and shot. I'm in the market again for an airplane. What I learned from my previous experience is how to do a Pre PreBuy. I'm no AI, but I can spot a lot of discrepencies in log books and on a plane to make a no go decision before I order the professional PreBuy. Many airplanes have owner groups online that have PreBuy checklists for their airplanes. Usually you can get those without actually joining the group.
 
Blueangel said:
Plane needs at least 10-15K in repairs to be air worthy and seller only wants to discount price by 2k so I'm going to walk away from this bad deal. I'd rather spend 65-70k for a well maintained plane. This one needs too much TLC and I'm neither a mechanic nor do I have a shop.
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Wise choice.

I learned this lesson the hard way with my first airplane (170). I knew I was buying a project airplane - badly needed paint (which was already factored in asking price) and we identified around $4k in repairs needed on the pre-buy. I was actually able to negotiate the price down $3,500 to account for the pre-buy discreps, so it was a better financial deal than what they are offering you.

However, once we started pulling stuff apart to accomplish those $4k in repairs, we identified probably another $4k in stuff that either needed fixing or was better to fix then than wait for it to fail in the near future and took 4-5 months to get it all done. I had a nice airplane when all was said and done, but I think I would have been able to fly my new airplane in those first 5 months!

If the pre-buy shop identified $10-15k in repairs, chances are the final bill will be much higher than that by the time you get everything done to your standards.
 
You made the right call running away. Think of how much you saved when you consider what you spent so far. Been there.

Do the POA guys a favor and post the tail #- you may save someone else some pre-buy money... you'll feel better helping someone save some money at least...
 
Blueangel said:
True not sure about taking them to court to recover the prebuy costs and if I'd even win. Anyways I'll make decision tomorrow. Otherwise the sweet S35 I looked at is much nicer and faster plus better panel and interior.
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I'm not a lawyer nor does my code of ethics allow me to be one.

With this disclaimer, do you have anything IN WRITING that the seller/broker gave you prior to the prebuy? If so, are there any claims about the maintenance of the aircraft All the judge knows is what (s)he SEES, not unfounded verbal puffery.

Again, what do you have IN WRITING???

Jim
 
Here is the ad for the plane:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...NAIR/1964-BEECHCRAFT-B33-DEBONAIR/1374123.htm

Stored in a Hangar and always well maintained

Airframe:
6512 Total Time
Engine Specs:
1464 SMOH
Prop(s):
799 SMOH
Avionics/Radios:
King KMA 24 Audio Panel/3 LMB
Dual King KX 155 Nav/Com’s
King Glideslope
King KN 64 DME
Garmin GTX 327 Digital Transponder/Encoder
JPI EDM 700 Graphic Engine Monitor
PMA 3000 4 Place Intercom System
Brittan B-5 Autopilot (Alt Hold INOP)
Additional Equipment:
M-800 Digital Chronometer
Hamilton Vertical Compass
Co-Pilot PPT
One Piece Windshield
Exterior:
Overall White/ Marroon Trim. Good
Interior:
Grey Leather Front/Blue Leather Rear. Average
Inspection Status:
Due Feb, 2016
 
Blueangel said:
Here is the ad for the plane:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...NAIR/1964-BEECHCRAFT-B33-DEBONAIR/1374123.htm

Stored in a Hangar and always well maintained
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With the caveat of the prior email about not being an attorney repeated ...

"Well maintained" is a pretty fluid and debatable condition. My WELL and your WELL probably differ by a great deal. HOWEVER, how many of the items on your 12 page punch list are UNAIRWORTHY? Not corroded, not bent, UNAIRWORTHY? To the STRICTEST standards. "worn" is a relative term. Parts are "worn" when they are installed. Worn beyond serviceable limits? To whose standards? Or is there a standard?

On the other hand, it may be worth $30 (the small claims filing fee in Orange County) just to bring it to the owner and broker's attention that there were more than a few items that warranted attention.

Me? I'd probably file it just to stir the pot. You may wind up a few bucks ahead. The $30 is a gamble, but one that I'd probably take.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
With the caveat of the prior email about not being an attorney repeated ...

"Well maintained" is a pretty fluid and debatable condition. My WELL and your WELL probably differ by a great deal. HOWEVER, how many of the items on your 12 page punch list are UNAIRWORTHY? Not corroded, not bent, UNAIRWORTHY? To the STRICTEST standards. "worn" is a relative term. Parts are "worn" when they are installed. Worn beyond serviceable limits? To whose standards? Or is there a standard?

On the other hand, it may be worth $30 (the small claims filing fee in Orange County) just to bring it to the owner and broker's attention that there were more than a few items that warranted attention.

Me? I'd probably file it just to stir the pot. You may wind up a few bucks ahead. The $30 is a gamble, but one that I'd probably take.

Jim
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I too would roll the 30 dollar dice... If nothing else but to waste the broker and sellers time...:rolleyes:
 
Ditto. Serve them, and include all 12 pages of notes. You might get some love from the people republic of San Diego courts. If not, maybe a settlement from the broker. He's on the hook, not really the owner.
 
docmirror said:
Ditto. Serve them, and include all 12 pages of notes. You might get some love from the people republic of San Diego courts. If not, maybe a settlement from the broker. He's on the hook, not really the owner.
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I believe both the broker and the airplane are in Santa Ana (Orange County). I think you would be on solid ground in the OC courts rather than San Diego. I'd bring the action in the venue of (a) where the broker and/or seller reside because that's where the ad originated (b) where the aircraft is actually located and (c) where the inspection took place. Just FYI and the ignorant ramblings of a nonprofessional in the legal department.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
I believe both the broker and the airplane are in Santa Ana (Orange County). I think you would be on solid ground in the OC courts rather than San Diego. I'd bring the action in the venue of (a) where the broker and/or seller reside because that's where the ad originated (b) where the aircraft is actually located and (c) where the inspection took place. Just FYI and the ignorant ramblings of a nonprofessional in the legal department.

Jim
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Sounds good to me. Either one is a people's demokratik republik. :thumbsup:
I think the inspection was done in Ramona CA, but no matter.
 
mikeinbama said:
Just beware that it would only cost them 30 to counter sue.
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For what? What expense did they incur to their detriment by a possible misrepresentation by the buyer. Besides, the court would almost certainly conjoin the two and hear the whole thing at once.

Jim
 
mikeinbama said:
Just beware that it would only cost them 30 to counter sue.
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Where's the damages? The plane is still on the market, and the time it spent in the shop I'm sure it was offered publicly for sale then as well. Maybe they want to charge for the gas and maint reserve for 1.5 hours to go round trip for the inspection. Sounds like maybe $300 at most.

And yes, both suits would be joined and heard together.
 
docmirror said:
Where's the damages? The plane is still on the market, and the time it spent in the shop I'm sure it was offered publicly for sale then as well. Maybe they want to charge for the gas and maint reserve for 1.5 hours to go round trip for the inspection. Sounds like maybe $300 at most.

And yes, both suits would be joined and heard together.
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I never said I thought they had a case, I don't. But it would only cost them 30 to countersue, im sure they could dream up a reason. Now you have to go to court and take your time. Not saying I agree, just the other side of the coin, that's all.
 
They would be hard pressed to counter sue. They agreed in writing to allow a pre-buy, and they still own the aircraft. If anything they now know what else is wrong with it at no cost (assuming they didn't already).

I see the point of it only being $30... I suppose you could go after it. Personally I say move on. Find the next plane and remember this is part of the game.

The stubborn seller did YOU A HUGE FAVOR by not reducing the price. And you did everyone a huge favor sharing your story, and the tail # here. Kudos.
 
I'm seriously considering calling the broker to show interest. I'll ask if there has been any interest and see where it goes :)
 
mikeinbama said:
I never said I thought they had a case, I don't. But it would only cost them 30 to countersue, im sure they could dream up a reason. Now you have to go to court and take your time. Not saying I agree, just the other side of the coin, that's all.
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Judges, or magistrates take a dim view of this kind of stuff. It would more than likely backfire.
 
EminiTrader said:
They would be hard pressed to counter sue. They agreed in writing to allow a pre-buy, and they still own the aircraft. If anything they now know what else is wrong with it at no cost (assuming they didn't already).

I see the point of it only being $30... I suppose you could go after it. Personally I say move on. Find the next plane and remember this is part of the game.

The stubborn seller did YOU A HUGE FAVOR by not reducing the price. And you did everyone a huge favor sharing your story, and the tail # here. Kudos.
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What.... You mean

N5744K has 12 pages of squawks..:yikes::eek::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise:
 
Yup a very neglected aircraft requiring 10K plus in repairs. At this point best to walk away and find one that at least shows real pride of ownership not severe abuse.
 
After total repair bill came to over 20K I decided to walk away and look for
a better aircraft.
 
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