Need help. Searching for a 200+ kt cruise, 6 seats, +/- 300K.

[gismo]

Most people can tell what their needs are for the next ten years, and that's close enough, when you have the "upgrade plan" it's gonna waste a lot of money and usefulness in the time it takes to be able to do what you want to do. Not to mention you can sour the family on flying.

Rather than "buy your last airplane first" (which is probably a bad idea even if you could predict the future) I think the mantra should be "make sure the airplane you're buying will suit your needs long enough that you won't regret having made the purchase". For some folks that could mean changing airplanes once every year or two because their situation changes (wrt financial resources or mission requirements) that often. For others (like myself) it could take 10-25 years for an airplane to become "obsolete" to my needs/wants/affordability.

=lance

 

[Alexb2000]

The single engine, six adults (and luggage), 200 Knot, $300K aircraft doesn't exist IMO. I would suggest the closest match is a PC12, it meets all the criteria except price.

IF you really want to move six adults around in singles for $300K the best thing to do is buy two used four seat aircraft and you and your partner each fly one with 3 people. Or buy one good aircraft and rent another when six incredibly brave people actually show up to fly.

 

[olasek]

He really wants something that's fast. He said over 200 kts. Maybe he set me up for failure on my research?

Your partner sounds very strange to me.
He is much more experienced pilot (from your description) so he should know a whole lot more about airplanes and what realistic performance numbers you can expect yet he delegates this 'research' to you a junior pilot. Apart from the original purchase price did he discuss with you such basics like how much both of you can afford in hourly operational costs, what insurance requirements might be, etc. I have to say I would be suspicious of going into partnership with someone who throws slogans like 'I need over 200 kts/6 seats' while attempting to draw in a rookie pilot to help him with 1/3 of costs.

 

[ronnieh]

That is a little bit odd, isn't it?

 

[jhausch]

I am not going to judge the guy (nor his potential partner) on what sounds like a sweet deal.

He's got $100k to put towards a purchase, so i will assume he is gainfully employed.

I hope he/they can make it work.

Edit to add: he does seem to be listening to the (reasonable) advice, too. It was not immediate, but it is happening.

 

[JasonM]

Be sure to try several test seating sessions, maybe even with bags. They feel different when everything and everybody is loaded. For example, some people like clubs seating, others think it's a shin-kicking exercise from start to finish and hate it. My group hated it. Even the A-36 we bought had row seats.

I will do my best to try things out as long as I can. I did just ask a guy on the phone the other night if he would fly me on a 3 hour tour in his cirrus to see how it rides and cruises. I offered to pay his expenses. He wanted the kitchen sink upfront ($50K deposit) to do anything other than open the doors and let me look inside. Heck if I am gonna be stroking a check for $50K for just a test ride.

Another guy wants to meet this weekend with a Saratoga and is willing to do 1 hour MAX test flight. looking forward to that.

Not sure how good this test ride stuff will go. I'll keep asking.

Although I've never flown one, a T-Bone could work a crowd like that. Cheap to buy but gas alone will be expensive.

You are talking about a Turbo Bonanza right?

The single engine, six adults (and luggage), 200 Knot, $300K aircraft doesn't exist IMO. I would suggest the closest match is a PC12, it meets all the criteria except price.

IF you really want to move six adults around in singles for $300K the best thing to do is buy two used four seat aircraft and you and your partner each fly one with 3 people. Or buy one good aircraft and rent another when six incredibly brave people actually show up to fly.

I already said I should just get a 150 and pull them in a glider behind.

Your partner sounds very strange to me.
He is much more experienced pilot (from your description) so he should know a whole lot more about airplanes and what realistic performance numbers you can expect yet he delegates this 'research' to you a junior pilot. Apart from the original purchase price did he discuss with you such basics like how much both of you can afford in hourly operational costs, what insurance requirements might be, etc. I have to say I would be suspicious of going into partnership with someone who throws slogans like 'I need over 200 kts/6 seats' while attempting to draw in a rookie pilot to help him with 1/3 of costs.

He is strange. no doubt. We've been friends for a long time. Really all started with getting a used Cirrus SR-22T and that's where his 200+ kts came in as a requirement. I wanted to bring my family when I flew and knew the Cirrus would not work. That's when he basically said, go find something that will do both and here I am with no good option to fill that criteria. He would absolutely prefer we get the used Cirrus or a used Columbia/Cessna 400.

 

[Henning]

A "T-Bone" is a Twin Bonanza, it's an enlarged version with two engines, old engines lol. If it still has the GO-435 engines they are difficult to support, I've seen one with the IGSO-480 engines and that would be cool and do the 200 most likely. Good plane, pretty plane, the later models (and some of the early were converted) have an Airstair and are a semi cabin class. The cool thing about the early ones is they had a three up front seat and a throw over yoke so you could fly from left of center seat. It's a good flying plane, but no at particularly practical or owner friendly, it would turn a lot of heads at pancake breakfasts though.

Even the Cirrus 22T won't do 200kts down where you're talking about flying.

 

[Jeff K]

Why would the guy who wants the smaller piece and doesn't intend to fly as much ever want to dump a partner?

I can think of alot of reasons.... starting with this one:

"I was basically told, go find what I like and he's in for 2/3."

Or to put it another way, this well off partner, who has $200K+ of disposable income, instead of hiring a professional like you, is instead trusting the decision to a relative new non IFR/non-ME rated junior partner (and no disrespect to the OP here).

There are obvious real monetary reasons to have a partner... but you also have to live with them on a day to day basis. A senior partner making not particular well thought out decisions might be a person who often does this... or isn't that serious.

I simply was saying... with this junior partner's 1/3 contribution, he very well maybe be able to get what he wants without a partner... maybe a 6 seat 210 for example. And he very well may find sharing the expenses on a $300K 200kt airplane may not be alot cheaper then footing the expenses 100% on that $100K 190mph airplane.

My biggest strike against a partner is I use the airplane for basic transportation. Meaning I need to now and I'll be off site for an indeterminate period of time. In the OP's case I'm not really hearing non-mission critical hobby flying... I'm hearing traveling machine. They may want to consider that if they are the one driving that aspect of it.

"Your partner sounds strange"

He is strange. no doubt. We've been friends for a long time.

And based on what I've seen here, if you want to remain friends with him, you are going to need to offload this decision to someone else. At the very least I see his expectations are going to need to be managed... and that could cause hard feelings.

 

[Jeff K]

Another comment on the T-Bone, it won't fit into a standard T hanger. The D model and before Aztec's will (long nose is issue on E's and F's). Not sure about the 310's

 

[Henning]

Another comment on the T-Bone, it won't fit into a standard T hanger. The D model and before Aztec's will (long nose is issue on E's and F's). Not sure about the 310's

Pre R 310s definitely do, don't know if the long nose on the R causes a problem.

 

[Alexb2000]

I know, but I was being serious. $150k will buy a nice airplane. Having two would increase availability, serve different missions, give you the option of taking on another partner to reduce cost, and let you move the 6 people when necessary.

 

[FlyBoyMcCall]

Since cost is a factor (and low), I'm guessing that total cost of ownership would be factored in. If so, I don't see an aircraft that meets all of your criteria. Some used Glassairs meet all but the six passenger requirement and have low operating costs for their performance. A Cherokee Six meets everything but speed and has leftover $$ to put against operating costs . . . and so on.

 

[JasonM]

I know, but I was being serious. $150k will buy a nice airplane. Having two would increase availability, serve different missions, give you the option of taking on another partner to reduce cost, and let you move the 6 people when necessary.

In reality he wont be going on my vacations with me, my wife and my kids. Well.. at least not all of them, so that wouldn't be a practical expectation.

Since cost is a factor (and low), I'm guessing that total cost of ownership would be factored in. If so, I don't see an aircraft that meets all of your criteria. Some used Glassairs meet all but the six passenger requirement and have low operating costs for their performance. A Cherokee Six meets everything but speed and has leftover $$ to put against operating costs . . . and so on.

Glassair has some great airplanes, but neither of us feel comfortable investing in an experimental or kit plane. I do love their Sportsman

I like the Cherokee and its useful load is really good.

 

[Henning]

In reality he wont be going on my vacations with me, my wife and my kids. Well.. at least not all of them, so that wouldn't be a practical expectation.



Glassair has some great airplanes, but neither of us feel comfortable investing in an experimental or kit plane. I do love their Sportsman

I like the Cherokee and its useful load is really good.

There is an experimental that fits your requirements, or at least close on speed, the Compair, there is a Compair7 on Barnstormers for $150k.

 

[Alexb2000]

In reality he wont be going on my vacations with me, my wife and my kids. Well.. at least not all of them, so that wouldn't be a practical expectation.



Glassair has some great airplanes, but neither of us feel comfortable investing in an experimental or kit plane. I do love their Sportsman

I like the Cherokee and its useful load is really good.

Ok I missed that YOU need six seats. How about this to haul people:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-T-SARATOGA/1981-PIPER-T-SARATOGA/1281125.htm

And something like this to go fast with less people:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...0K-252TSE/1986-MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1274203.htm

FIKI, turbo, speedster, for those trips that need it.

Put all that together and you're talking a lot more money, or a twin.


Or...???? Just throwing out another option.

 

[ronnieh]

Guys, I think Jason has seen the light. He knows he is not ready for a twin. He has changed his mission requirements. The 200 MPH is no longer.

He has not stated his qualifications. I don't know if he is a 200 hr. PP or 2000 hr. PP. I do hope he takes several peoples advice and get on the IR post haste, like as in tomorrow. A reasonably competent PP with his IR should be able to transition into a six place SE with a minimum of fuss. Insurance will be a little tough the first year but, should not be a deal breaker. It seems to me $200K ought to buy a very nice 6 place single. A turbo'ed SE might even work.

 

[Henning]

I still don't understand why someone would be ready for a HP 6 seat single and not a twin, but regardless, the Sartoga will meet his mission, but likely not his partner's.

 

[ronnieh]

It has already been established that the plane in the OP does not exist. Jason appears to accept that and I assume his partner does too, perhaps not?
Read Jason's post #55. A new set of parameters. Many low time VFR pilots are a little reluctant to jump into a twin from a fixed gear fixed prop and start taking family and friends all over the country. I for one concur. Jason has a workable plan now. If his partner can't live with it then Jason has some decisions to make. IMO.

 

[JimG.]

What about the cessna 340?

I skimmed through most of this thread, but wanted to address this specifically because that was my last airplane and the one I have some experience with…

As Wayne stated… it's not a 6 place airplane if you want to go any further then the pattern.

In addition to the multi-rating, you'll have to have an instrument rating and plenty of complex time before an insurance company will talk to you.

The instrument rating is more than just your bona fides to an insurance company. Unless you have time to spare… seldom will a distance of that length be VFR the entire way to/from for a good part of the year.

And like many of the big twins that have been mentioned already…

Nobody that I read commented that it's going to require an annual trip to flight safety at $5000/pop for the 1st few years

 

[wabower]

Bingo.

I'd guess there are some hard-cores that actually fly the trips that Jason first mentioned in GA singles and twins, but a time or two to each each for the far-distant destinations was more than enough for me to know that airlines were invented for a reason. Buy a nice plane that you like to fly and will accommodate your family for trips of reasonable length with the knowledge there will be times to leave it in the hangar and ride in something else.

Guys, I think Jason has seen the light. He knows he is not ready for a twin. He has changed his mission requirements. The 200 MPH is no longer.

He has not stated his qualifications. I don't know if he is a 200 hr. PP or 2000 hr. PP. I do hope he takes several peoples advice and get on the IR post haste, like as in tomorrow. A reasonably competent PP with his IR should be able to transition into a six place SE with a minimum of fuss. Insurance will be a little tough the first year but, should not be a deal breaker. It seems to me $200K ought to buy a very nice 6 place single. A turbo'ed SE might even work.

 

[wabower]

Maybe he's seen the results when people buy twins who have no business doing so, end up hiding them in a hangar a thousand miles from where they live and don't fly them for years.

I still don't understand

 

[stratobee]

With a freshly baked ME rating some years ago, I managed to get insurance on my Aero Commander 520 for $2175/year, no hull, no experience. I did have to do 15hrs with an instructor, but that was all. My Aerostar is $1700/year, no hull. Had to get type specific training, of course. I don't have an IR yet. So it's certainly possible.

 

[JimG.]

With a freshly baked ME rating some years ago, I managed to get insurance on my Aero Commander 520 for $2175/year, no hull, no experience. I did have to do 15hrs with an instructor, but that was all. My Aerostar is $1700/year, no hull. Had to get type specific training, of course. I don't have an IR yet. So it's certainly possible.

Wow

I bought my 340 without a multi-rating, but I had 20 years of flying a bonanza and an instrument rating.

I was required to go to flight safety for an initial training week (without the rating at the time), fly 40 hours with a mentor, and 10 hours solo before I could carry passengers.

1st year's premium… $15,000 ($250,000 hull)

It was half that the following year, and almost half of that each of the following years, and FlightSafety went to every other year.

 

[wabower]

Stratobee has never had hull coverage. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Wow

I bought my 340 without a multi-rating, but I had 20 years of flying a bonanza and an instrument rating.

I was required to go to flight safety for an initial training week (without the rating at the time), fly 40 hours with a mentor, and 10 hours solo before I could carry passengers.

1st year's premium… $15,000 ($250,000 hull)

It was half that the following year, and almost half of that each of the following years, and FlightSafety went to every other year.

 

[JimG.]

Stratobee has never had hull coverage. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

I never realized there would be that much difference in the cost without hull coverage

Now I know why so many of them fly naked

 

[weilke]

The threshold for the annual trip to a Sim seems to be pressurization.

 

[wabower]

It's like all other crap games. The game usually can't hurt the house but can put a big hurt on the player.

I never realized there would be that much difference in the cost without hull coverage

Now I know why so many of them fly naked