Need help. Searching for a 200+ kt cruise, 6 seats, +/- 300K.

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JasonM

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I have a friend that's a pilot and interested in partnering up on a plane and our list of requests is looking hard to achieve. Looking for something +/- $300K that will cruise 200+ kts and carry 6 total. Closest I can find is Bonanza 36 or Piper Saratoga but they are still about 30 kts to slow. Is it possible? Am I missing something perfect? Single Engine <-- edit. left that part out last night. :eek:
 
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JasonM said:
I have a friend that's a pilot and interested in partnering up on a plane and our list of requests is looking hard to achieve. Looking for something +/- $300K that will cruise 200+ kts and carry 6 total. Closest I can find is Bonanza 36 or Piper Saratoga but they are still about 30 kts to slow. Is it possible? Am I missing something perfect?
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Yeah, you're looking for a 421B, there is no way to meet your requirements under 400 HP. You may fit 6 people into a Comanche 400, but there will be no room for luggage. You need a twin, a T-310R would work, but it doesn't cost a hell of a lot more to run a 421 and your passengers will appreciate the pressure and potty.
 
Aerostar will do it effortlessly. A Superstar or 702P will beat it with 50kts. Doubt there is a single that fits your criteria. Malibu could do it, but none to be had for that price, I reckon. Maybe I'm missing some obvious aircraft, but nothing comes to mind. Maybe a P210?
 
If you want a single you are going to have to up the money,a twin would be the answer,but you need the rating and the insurance will be high if your low time in twins.
 
The other part of the equation is how far between fuel stops do you want to carry six people. Don
 
Nearly impossible Jason. Henning's idea comes the closest. When you put 6 adults in a six place airplane such as a 310 or even more so an Aerostar it will be VERY cozy. Also you will not be able to carry enough fuel to get anywhere. In a single it will take kerosene to achieve that. A twin is the only real answer to your mission profile. The speed you want will require getting into the low flight levels (pressure or O2) which will require your IR and the plane will need equipment for weather. Your requirements are pretty tall for any single piston.
If you back off 20-30 knots on speed several twins come to mind. In addition to several of the twin Cessnas the PA31 series come to mind. Even a Chieftain with 4 hours of fuel (450 miles with one hour reserve) is well below 1000 pounds in payload, most are below 900 pounds.
 
yakdriver said:
The other part of the equation is how far between fuel stops do you want to carry six people. Don
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Excellent question. Because the A36 will be very limited on range. And where would you put the luggage for six on an A36? Looks like the Malibu is the answer.

José
 
Henning said:
Yeah, you're looking for a 421B, there is no way to meet your requirements under 400 HP. You may fit 6 people into a Comanche 400, but there will be no room for luggage. You need a twin, a T-310R would work, but it doesn't cost a hell of a lot more to run a 421 and your passengers will appreciate the pressure and potty.
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I forgot to add Single Engine to my post. :mad2: Neither of us are multi rated.


Tom-D said:
http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/Vi...al=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=7296558&dealerid=
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Not fast enough. :wink2: in seriousness: way beyond my abilities and ratings in the foreseeable future.



warthog1984 said:
C-210?
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Love the 210's. I didnt think they went that fast. I just looked and it seems like a P210 may go close to 200. I'll dig deeper on that option.:)


stratobee said:
Aerostar will do it effortlessly. A Superstar or 702P will beat it with 50kts. Doubt there is a single that fits your criteria. Malibu could do it, but none to be had for that price, I reckon. Maybe I'm missing some obvious aircraft, but nothing comes to mind. Maybe a P210?
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Neither of us are multi rated. I'm gonna look into the P210 some more. :)


olasek said:
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...U-MIRAGE/1989-PIPER-MALIBU-MIRAGE/1155033.htm
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Thats a possibility! :D


frfly172 said:
If you want a single you are going to have to up the money,a twin would be the answer,but you need the rating and the insurance will be high if your low time in twins.
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Neither of us are multi rated.



yakdriver said:
The other part of the equation is how far between fuel stops do you want to carry six people. Don
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Well, we want to be able to travel from the East Coast to WY and MT a few times per year and be useful for shorter 1 hour trips. I would think the range is not as important as the other stuff. I'd say as long as it could fly for atleast 3 hours that would work fine. I don't see my bladder making 4-5 hour legs.


ronnieh said:
Nearly impossible Jason. Henning's idea comes the closest. When you put 6 adults in a six place airplane such as a 310 or even more so an Aerostar it will be VERY cozy. Also you will not be able to carry enough fuel to get anywhere. In a single it will take kerosene to achieve that. A twin is the only real answer to your mission profile. The speed you want will require getting into the low flight levels (pressure or O2) which will require your IR and the plane will need equipment for weather. Your requirements are pretty tall for any single piston.
If you back off 20-30 knots on speed several twins come to mind. In addition to several of the twin Cessnas the PA31 series come to mind. Even a Chieftain with 4 hours of fuel (450 miles with one hour reserve) is well below 1000 pounds in payload, most are below 900 pounds.
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Neither of us are multi rated.
 
Piloto said:
Excellent question. Because the A36 will be very limited on range. And where would you put the luggage for six on an A36? Looks like the Malibu is the answer.

José
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I like the malibu, but wonder if a $300K malibu is a risky buy? seems like most are very $$$.
 
Piloto said:
Excellent question. Because the A36 will be very limited on range. And where would you put the luggage for six on an A36? Looks like the Malibu is the answer.

José
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How far can you go with 6 in a Malibu ?
 
JasonM said:
I forgot to add Single Engine to my post. :mad2: Neither of us are multi rated.


Neither of us are multi rated. I'm gonna look into the P210 some more. :)


Neither of us are multi rated.


Neither of us are multi rated.
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You know a Multi rating is $2k and three days of training. No matter what you buy, you're going to need significant aircraft specific training (and an instrument rating if you don't already have it) for the class of aircraft you're looking at.
 
One of the frequent posters (Rudy) had this exact situation a few years ago. He was flying an SR-22 at the time, based in the NYC area and had a family home in the northwest.

He couldn't make it work as he had hoped. The T-210 would probably come closer than anything else in the fleet, with 1,000# cabin load and full 89 gal fuel and a decent baggage space. To get ~200 TAS requires high teens with a hose, canula/and most pax aren't all that thrilled with that set-up. We did it a few times to make long east-bound trips, but never looked forward to it. The P will do almost as well performance-wise but climb slower and not as roomy and limited bag space.

The west-bound trips will take forever no matter what you fly, so just be ready. I've flown from Richmond, VA to Richland, WA in one day in a -90 King Air, complete with pressure, potty, copilot and cabin refreshments, and still required two fuel stops and wore all of our butts plumb slick.
 
Brad Z said:
You know a Multi rating is $2k and three days of training. No matter what you buy, you're going to need significant aircraft specific training (and an instrument rating if you don't already have it) for the class of aircraft you're looking at.
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I was thinking the same...
 
JasonM said:
Neither of us are multi rated.
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That one is easy enough to change. You'll need transition training anyway, the 3 days to get the multi can be part of that.

The only single that will do east coast to MT with 6 adults and luggage is the PC12. A Matrix will do it in 3 hops. An early A36 with tips and TAT turbonormalizer will do it in two hops. Your pax will be sitting with their bags on their laps and purchase one-way tickets on Delta for the way home..

I would get a PA31-325, the cheapest aircraft to carry Six. Yes, the 421 will fly higher and faster, it will require more recurrent training and a higher capital outlay. The Navajo will be slower, but there is a reason lots of them still fly for a living.
 
I'd describe the legs as grinds more than hops. For perspective, most of the bizjets can't fly those trips without at least one stop.

weilke said:
That one is easy enough to change. You'll need transition training anyway, the 3 days to get the multi can be part of that.

The only single that will do east coast to MT with 6 adults and luggage is the PC12. A Matrix will do it in 3 hops. An early A36 with tips and TAT turbonormalizer will do it in two hops. Your pax will be sitting with their bags on their laps and purchase one-way tickets on Delta for the way home..

I would get a PA31-325, the cheapest aircraft to carry Six. Yes, the 421 will fly higher and faster, it will require more recurrent training and a higher capital outlay. The Navajo will be slower, but there is a reason lots of them still fly for a living.
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As mentioned - a twin rating is dead simple to do and it will open up the playing field to numerous aircraft AND save you money. See another thread on this subject:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63314

$200K saved buys a lot of fuel. Like 40.000hrs of fuel if you calculate a twin burning 30% more....
 
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wabower said:
I'd describe the legs as grinds more than hops. For perspective, most of the bizjets can't fly those trips without at least one stop.
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Hey, for 300k you can probably get a GII, that'll do it in one :)
 
And whoever sits jumpseat gets to (literally) watch the needles on the fuel quantity gages move during takeoff and climb.

weilke said:
Hey, for 300k you can probably get a GII, that'll do it in one :)
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If you're spending there hundred thousand dollars on an airplane getting your multi rating is not a problem. You can get a multi in a weekend. From there find a good instructor to fly with you in the bird until you meet the insurance requirements.

If you want to haul around six people at two hundred knots it's going to take some commitment to training no matter what option you go with. Personally I'd be looking at twins for that mission.
 
And I'd insist that any friend considering such a boon-doggle fly the trip at least once in a similar airplane before spending a dime buying one. Those are killer trips (literally and in more ways than space allows to describe) that can't be fully understood without actual experience.

jesse said:
If you're spending there hundred thousand dollars on an airplane getting your multi rating is not a problem. You can get a multi in a weekend. From there find a good instructor to fly with you in the bird until you meet the insurance requirements.

If you want to haul around six people at two hundred knots it's going to take some commitment to training no matter what option you go with. Personally I'd be looking at twins for that mission.
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JasonM said:
Is it possible?

Not with out a lot of training on your part.

Am I missing something perfect?

Yes, a twin rating and maybe a type rating for the aircraft capable of the mission.

Single Engine <-- edit. left that part out last night. :eek:
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Your mission, requires equipment you are not capable of flying safely. I'd suggest an on demand air taxi operating a biz jet for the long trips for 6.
 
My friend has a lot more experience than me, but I don't feel comfortable going the twin route and the thought of the extra maintenance, insurance costs and fuel costs kinda scare us. I understand I will have some learning to do with the high speeds, but I also feel the more simple I can make that transition the better.

6 Seats isn't mandatory I guess. 5 would be. We were looking originally at the cirrus with its 5th seat, but soon realized that the 5th seat option was only for the newer model and the $$$ is out of our price range also realized the useful load was about worthless when you filled up the tanks. 5 seats turns into 3 seats pretty quick.

Can any of you confirm the cruise speeds of the T210, P210? I have been seeing numbers all over the map.
 
Tom-D said:
Your mission, requires equipment you are not capable of flying safely. I'd suggest an on demand air taxi operating a biz jet for the long trips for 6.
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Please explain. I'm looking to fly not be flown.
 
Brad Z said:
No matter what you buy, you're going to need significant aircraft specific training (and an instrument rating if you don't already have it) for the class of aircraft you're looking at.
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I do not have an instrument rating yet. Why would I need it? I'm planning on getting it, but why is that a requirement?
 
You're going on trips that will take you over the mountains at night, likely in IFR conditions if you need to meet a schedule of any sorts and you are fine with that in a HP single that you will have to run balls to the wall to get the speed you are looking for, yet you are uncomfortable in a twin that you can loaf at econo cruise and still make your speed + 10 kts? If you don't have your IR, go to one of the simulator places and do as much as you can in their 421 sim.
 
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Several thousand hours in the T-210 produced 163 KTAS at 8k' and 175 KTAS at 12k' at 68% ROP. We didn't know about LOP back then and analyzers were new.

I could get 190's KTAS in the high teens and low 20's but not worth going there due to cabin deck angle and pax didn't like it. My plane was ~2-3 knots slower than book due to FIKI boots.

There's not a single 200 KIAS cruise number anywhere in the POH, which happens to be here on the counter and opened to the performance section. The P-model performance is similar, but with slower climb and better pax comfort.

Any pressurization is better than no pressurization, but the 3.5 PSI diff isn't all that wonderful and adds weight, complexity and MX. Collins bought his P shortly before I bought the T and we talked about them frequently. He flew frequent trips from the east coast to Wichita, KC and other aviation-intense places in the midwest, and thought the P was a better choice. Most of my trips were regional with legs less than 500 miles, so the pressurization was of little benefit compared to the trade-offs.

Whatever floats your boat.



JasonM said:
My friend has a lot more experience than me, but I don't feel comfortable going the twin route and the thought of the extra maintenance, insurance costs and fuel costs kinda scare us. I understand I will have some learning to do with the high speeds, but I also feel the more simple I can make that transition the better.

6 Seats isn't mandatory I guess. 5 would be. We were looking originally at the cirrus with its 5th seat, but soon realized that the 5th seat option was only for the newer model and the $$$ is out of our price range also realized the useful load was about worthless when you filled up the tanks. 5 seats turns into 3 seats pretty quick.

Can any of you confirm the cruise speeds of the T210, P210? I have been seeing numbers all over the map.
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warthog1984 said:
For practical travel, an IFR rating is needed due to weather. OTOH, if you are up 16k+, you may be above all that- just don't bust the Class A.
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Absolutely was my thoughts, though I would prefer to be below the clouds if possible.

I just want to clear up some things before we go down a path of how I need this or that unnecessarily.

Our trips wont be time/date departure dependent and I would prefer to fly at lower alt so I would assume some weather dodging or waiting. The longer trips out west are only for vacation/fun so there is no deadline when doing so. No required business trip needs as well for shorter flights. All of this is mainly for fun.

I'm not a billionaire and the most I can personally commit to this is about 1/3 of the $300K plus my share of the expenses. Partner is committed to 2/3 ownership and plans on flying more than I.

I'm a new pilot, but want something I can grow into and be happy with for a long time.
 
wabower said:
Several thousand hours in the T-210 produced 163 KTAS at 8k' and 175 KTAS at 12k' at 68% ROP. We didn't know about LOP back then and analyzers were new.

I could get 190's KTAS in the high teens and low 20's but not worth going there due to cabin deck angle and pax didn't like it. My plane was ~2-3 knots slower than book due to FIKI boots.

There's not a single 200 KIAS cruise number anywhere in the POH, which happens to be here on the counter and opened to the performance section. The P-model performance is similar, but with slower climb and better pax comfort.

Any pressurization is better than no pressurization, but the 3.5 PSI diff isn't all that wonderful and adds weight, complexity and MX. Collins bought his P shortly before I bought the T and we talked about them frequently. He flew frequent trips from the east coast to Wichita, KC and other aviation-intense places in the midwest, and thought the P was a better choice. Most of my trips were regional with legs less than 500 miles, so the pressurization was of little benefit compared to the trade-offs.

Whatever floats your boat.
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hmm.. not as good as I was hoping. "On the internet" :rolleyes: I read anywhere from 165kts - 215kts. looks like 165kts was the correct one. :( Especially since I'll be in that 8-12K range.
 
Once you decide your flying will be more than 100 mile hamburger runs on beautiful days to your choosing an instrument rating will be a tremendous benefit. I've went and retrieved more than my fair share of pilots stranded because things went IMC when they didn't expect it and didn't think they needed an instrument rating. Luckily they were always smart enough to stop and generally smart enough to start instrument training afterwords.

What will cause panic to a non instrument pilot is nothing to a proficient instrument pilot - just a few radio calls and a few knob twists and button pushes.
 
Your post covers many of the reasons I insist that prospective owners fly at least one trip in whatever they're thinking of buying before they write a check. In your case the answer is maybe sometime down the road, but not now. Keep flying, pick up the IR and revisit in six months or a year.

JasonM said:
Absolutely was my thoughts, though I would prefer to be below the clouds if possible.

I just want to clear up some things before we go down a path of how I need this or that unnecessarily.

Our trips wont be time/date departure dependent and I would prefer to fly at lower alt so I would assume some weather dodging or waiting. The longer trips out west are only for vacation/fun so there is no deadline when doing so. No required business trip needs as well for shorter flights. All of this is mainly for fun.

I'm not a billionaire and the most I can personally commit to this is about 1/3 of the $300K plus my share of the expenses. Partner is committed to 2/3 ownership and plans on flying more than I.

I'm a new pilot, but want something I can grow into and be happy with for a long time.
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JasonM said:
Absolutely was my thoughts, though I would prefer to be below the clouds if possible.

I just want to clear up some things before we go down a path of how I need this or that unnecessarily.

Our trips wont be time/date departure dependent and I would prefer to fly at lower alt so I would assume some weather dodging or waiting. The longer trips out west are only for vacation/fun so there is no deadline when doing so. No required business trip needs as well for shorter flights. All of this is mainly for fun.

I'm not a billionaire and the most I can personally commit to this is about 1/3 of the $300K plus my share of the expenses. Partner is committed to 2/3 ownership and plans on flying more than I.

I'm a new pilot, but want something I can grow into and be happy with for a long time.
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Then you want a 401 or a Navajo. Much better to loaf a twin where you have reserves when you need them than to push a single hard full time. I travel transcontinental the way you intend, it often pushes me right to the deck, I much prefer having 2 engines to do that. If you need only 5 seats, I could make you a deal on a low time plane with low time engines and a glass panel at 1/3rd of your budget.
 
JasonM said:
I do not have an instrument rating yet. Why would I need it? I'm planning on getting it, but why is that a requirement?
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warthog1984 said:
For practical travel, an IFR rating is needed due to weather. OTOH, if you are up 16k+, you may be above all that- just don't bust the Class A.
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That, plus your insurer will probably demand it. If you choose to fly naked, that won't be a factor.
 
jesse said:
Once you decide your flying will be more than 100 mile hamburger runs on beautiful days to your choosing an instrument rating will be a tremendous benefit. I've went and retrieved more than my fair share of pilots stranded because things went IMC when they didn't expect it and didn't think they needed an instrument rating. Luckily they were always smart enough to stop and generally smart enough to start instrument training afterwords.

What will cause panic to a non instrument pilot is nothing to a proficient instrument pilot - just a few radio calls and a few knob twists and button pushes.
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I absolutely do want to get it and plan to start that training within the next couple weeks regardless. I would be one of those to sit and wait or call for help if need be. No need in leaving my kids without their dad. :)


wabower said:
Your post covers many of the reasons I insist that prospective owners fly at least one trip in whatever they're thinking of buying before they write a check. In your case the answer is maybe sometime down the road, but not now. Keep flying, pick up the IR and revisit in six months or a year.
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I understand what your saying and can appreciate that as well.
 
No M Series piston Piper is a 200 ktas airplane unless you fly it way high and hard...

I fly a Matrix and I get 1300 "points"...those can be miles or pounds...I have seen 202ktas as 65% only above 18K...This is no fun without pressurization for anyone. Translated into a few trips..I took 6 from KFAY to Pittsburgh...landed with 30 gallons of fuel....I took 4 from KFAY to Paducah KY. Landed with about the same amount of fuel...pretty decent trips...but if you are routinely flying six...the advice Wayne has given repeatedly about flying a trip in the perspective plane is some of the best advice I have ever been given.
 
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