Need Help Picking the right Cabin Class

USAF-LT-G said:
Guys, there are 421s out there for way less than 150k. The 421's I've seen (closer to $179k posted) have pretty damn clean logs, coming directly off 135 operations, and still have about 1/2 life on their TBOs. I realize there's bad stuff out there, i'm not about to go invest in a plane that is a piece of crap / problem prone. But 135 ops / clean well maintained logs at that price point.... what's incredibly wrong about that?
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A 135 operator is going to sell cheap when the plane needs enough maintenance that it’s more cost effective to replace it.

Your prebuy inspection will tell you what needs to be done, but a prebuy on a twin like that won’t be cheap, either.


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Wait. Didn’t you just start a similar thread, like a month or two ago?
 
There must be a market for these $150k 421s or they would never sell. But I do agree with the majority that you are asking for a lot more than your budget can likely support (unless you get rather lucky). I suspect the best buyer for a $150k 421 is someone who already owns a few 421s, operates them well and in a predictable business and has mx on staff. Or a semi-retired A&P/pilot who can do all the work themself and enjoys working on airplanes as much as flying.

Or put another way, I too have the same wish-list (must-list?) as you but 2-3x your budget... and I ended up in an unpressurized piston single.
 
ktup-flyer said:
P-Navajo! Damn good airplane if you can foot it. The geared engines are the only thing I'd be cautious about
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Didn't j1b3h0 just say the P-Navajo's are notoriously known for spewing engine parts though???
 
I’m in the same boat as ya as well as a lot of pilots on here. We see the low end prices on these bigger planes that would fit all our heavenly needs. And we think we’ll i can make that work. But what you are seeing here is ppl that know some of the pitfalls and can tell you first, often second hand. There are a lot of planes I can afford to probably buy, but probably won’t be able to keep in the air. Or I can afford but lack the experience to even sit right seat!!
That’s other thing. I forget where you are at in training and certs. These bigger twins require a lot of experience and hours.
My planned twin budget is very similar to yours. But, I think to think, am more realistic to what plane I can afford to keep in the air. It’s not going to be pressurized and not a perfect fit for all missions. But it will be faster safer and a little higher then when I’m currently flying
 
RudyP said:
There must be a market for these $150k 421s or they would never sell. ... I suspect the best buyer for a $150k 421 is someone who already owns a few 421s, operates them well and in a predictable business and has mx on staff. ..
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Or export to a similar customer.

If the $150K 421s were a viable option, I think you’d find a lot more people here actually operating them as the price/performance would be hard to beat.

Seriously, if I could do a two or three person partnership in $150K 421, even at $600/hr all in, that’d be a hell of a deal.

Insurers wouldn’t be so focused on initial and recurrent training for 421 operators either, I suspect.

They’d give Cirrus a run for their money, that’s for sure.
 
With your initial budget you will not find a 421C that is airworthy or likely one that is close, you can find a 421B which is very similar, a little older of course, but not a bad option. I think I paid around $150K for mine and gutted the panel, but it had 400/500 hours on factory reman engines. There are gotchas on them as well as the 340 and 414's, the landing gear has a shaft that has to be inspected and replaced, I think they were $3K per side for the part! Find one that needs paint but has been flown regularly and maintained by a good shop and you might have one that is affordable. I kept mine about 3 years and don't remember cancelling a trip for something that broke, but I was pretty good about keeping up with squawks as they popped up. Be prepared to buy a $60K engine on any of these airplanes, it just happens!
 
N747JB said:
With your initial budget you will not find a 421C that is airworthy or likely one that is close, you can find a 421B which is very similar, a little older of course, but not a bad option. I think I paid around $150K for mine and gutted the panel, but it had 400/500 hours on factory reman engines. There are gotchas on them as well as the 340 and 414's, the landing gear has a shaft that has to be inspected and replaced, I think they were $3K per side for the part! Find one that needs paint but has been flown regularly and maintained by a good shop and you might have one that is affordable. I kept mine about 3 years and don't remember cancelling a trip for something that broke, but I was pretty good about keeping up with squawks as they popped up. Be prepared to buy a $60K engine on any of these airplanes, it just happens!
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It's funny you mention that. Someone else told me the same thing, that A 421B might be a better option, which hey, I'm totally fine with. If an engine pops and I have to replace at $60k, i get it, and It is what it is...i'll make it happen. Maybe I'll look into a 421B as a compromise.
 
I can’t imagine any cabin class twin for $150K being a good purchase. For everything OP describes for his mission, it’s begging for a 421/P-Navajo or entry turbine like a PC-12 or KA90. You won’t be touching a solid example of those without almost double the $150K.

Better find a partnership or decide that pressurization or the potty isn’t a necessity for the mission.


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N747JB said:
There are gotchas on them as well as the 340 and 414's, the landing gear has a shaft that has to be inspected and replaced, I think they were $3K per side for the part!
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To be fair, piddly 182RG gear pivots are double that at best, not even new. 3K on a cessna gear part is a bargain! :D
 
Wait.. did you say you’ve never owned a plane before? I’m not really an expert on these things but I’m on #3 and there is definitely a learning curve. And it’s not so much about learning how to maintain or manage the plane, it’s more about managing and preparing for and accepting the financial load. If I understand correctly and you’re on #1, feeding a cabin class, pressurized twin is going to be a big shock.

For instance, you said you wouldn’t mind paying $60-70k a year in maintenance but don’t want it to hit all at once, but that means you’re writing a check for $5k or more every single month in addition to hangar, fuel, and insurance. That’s like doing an annual every month on a moderately sized piston single. Talk about stressful.
 
The 414 seems like a much more reasonable plane based on maintenance costs and no geared engine to worry about.
 
Again, non-pressurized, and maybe over budget for a good example is a PA-31-310 Navajo. My favorite is the Chieftan which is stretched a little and has 350hp engines. Roomy, 180ish kts @ 45gph, nice instrument platform and usually equipped with boots, hot props, heated windshield. Easy to fly but engine management is essential, and the throttles treated with kidd gloves. Might be overkill for your mission; oh wait, have you told us your mission? There is a reason there are almost no Pressurized Navajos, but the regular Navajos and Chieftans were flown like crazy by outfits like Ameriflite. At one time, they were the largest PA-31 operator in the world, flying some 40,000hrs a year. Get one of those guys to teach you to fly yours.
 
Tip tank 414 or a 421B will give you the best value. Everyone talks about the straight wing airplanes, but you pay a significant premium for that. Frankly I think the tip tank planes are better.

You don't want a P-Navajo. The TIGO-541 = worst engine ever plus unsupported.

When I made this decision a couple years ago I settled on a tip tank 414 because I'm not a fan of the GTSIOs. I picked one that I got for $100k that hadn't flown 100 hours this millennium. Frankly it was the only way to do it.

The plane was ultimately a good bird, but it still tried to eat me out of house and home and I had a LOT of downtime and a LOT of wrenching time. If dispatchability isn't much of a concern and you want to work on your A&P, then it's a good airplane. However the MU-2 is thus far proving cheaper to own and operate than the 414.
 
This one solves the whole entire debate:
Looks like it is going 301KTS sitting on the ramp

^^^^^^ lookit 1:00 and after a bit. VS and deck angle
 
Two year 414 owner here. I would be quite suspicious of a $150k 421. I’d be suspicious of a $150k 414 too.
Yes if you have to do an engine, it’s $50/$60k. OTOH I do not agree that a decent 414 will require $60k a year in normal maintenance. Especially true if you can and want to work on your plane yourself like I do.
I suggest you find someone near you that operates a 414/421 and have an extended talk about what’s involved. Take a flight on one for sure.
They are great planes. You just need to know what you’re getting into.
 
When it comes to 421's they'll cost as much as a Turbo Commander/MU-2 to operate, give or take. Only thing you save is a little on the purchase price.

Heck, has anyone checked on a GTSIO-520 overhaul recently? You won't get any change on $100K/side. That's for 1600hrs TBO and a cost of $62.50/hr. A Garrett is $250K, but for 5400hrs, so only $46/hr. Yeah, they have hot sections on top of that, but the GTSIO has a top overhaul halfway through and that in just oil changes, so it's a wash.;)
 
Yeah can't be done. I do think an Aztec (my preference is NA, but turbo has some extra advantages if you're willing to put up with the worse fuel economy and added mx items) with ice goodies would be a great platform to perform this mission in comfort and under budget. Comfy cabin for the pax, 25-30K/yr a year (before hangar) per 100 hours comes well under budget for ya, which means more flying, more steak dinners and hotel upgrades at the destination. You're welcome :D
 
Lance F said:
Two year 414 owner here. I would be quite suspicious of a $150k 421. I’d be suspicious of a $150k 414 too.
Yes if you have to do an engine, it’s $50/$60k. OTOH I do not agree that a decent 414 will require $60k a year in normal maintenance. Especially true if you can and want to work on your plane yourself like I do.
I suggest you find someone near you that operates a 414/421 and have an extended talk about what’s involved. Take a flight on one for sure.
They are great planes. You just need to know what you’re getting into.
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Lance,

Why don’t you put real numbers from your experience?

The OP will know it’s based on a short timeframe of ownership but also know he is getting real world numbers.

I’m quoting figures from twin cessna owners but of course, it’s not first hand feedback.
 
Why the need for a twin? Still confused on that one. Piston twins are like horses. They eat while you sleep (and while you’re awake).
You could get a heck of a lot of piston single even turbocharged for that. What are piston Malibu’s going for these days?
 
[QUOTE="You could get a heck of a lot of piston single even turbocharged for that. What are piston Malibu’s going for these days?[/QUOTE]

About $235-$300K, so a bit above his budget.
 
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