Near Max Gross Weight Experience

WakeNCAgent

WakeNCAgent

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
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133
Location
Raleigh, NC
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Display name:
Louis
I recently hosted out of town guests and offered to take them on a scenic flight around Raleigh; it was me and two pax. Luckily, I've shed nearly 30lb over the past year thanks to regular exercise and that pretty much saved the flight. When I asked my pax to step on the scale they weighed a collective 90 pounds more than I expected! That normally wouldn't be a big deal, but these were two healthy specimens and that only left us roughly 70 pounds below max gross at takeoff.

This was a first for me. I normally fly just myself or maybe with one other person of average weight. I was both surprised and exhilarated by the plane's response. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the plane felt more "substantial" in a weird sort of way.

172 pilots may know what I mean. In a normal (for me) departure, the plane lifts off the runway by itself rather quickly. BTW, I regularly fly a 180-hp model S. In this case, I had to apply positive nose up input to effect the rotation and it felt great! It felt like I was flying a much bigger plane. Nothing unsafe, mind you; we were well within the envelope of the airplane but it just felt like a bigger airplane. When I compared the takeoff in the video with one I filmed last week, the roll was 33% longer in duration; mostly due to the lower rate of acceleration.

I can't wait to do this again, under the right conditions. Just for an added margin of safety, I left my 18lb flight bag in the car and only brought my chart and the POH with me in the plane. I don't really have a question but thought I would share the experience. I'd like to hear about your experience flying near (or beyond) max gross and what you may have learned from it.

Just for the record, I consider myself a conscientious pilot. In fact, we left behind a fourth pax that had been promised a seat because of the weight issue.
 
You are way may thorough than I ever was. I asked for weights, but never made them actually get in the scale. Please tell me you didn't weigh the women. You'll never do the woohoo-woohoo that way....

Airplanes are fine to fly at gross. No worries even if you are right at max.
 
Can't say for sure about 172's but I keep 30lbs. of survival gear, tools, and stuff in the very aft extended baggage of the C-180. It flys faster and lands better when I'm lightly loaded that way.

Gross operations in mine is mostly a non-event.

Just watch your C.G. Strap everything down. You don't want things shifting around at gross.
 
I never weigh my female passengers but I tell them the TSA requires that I frisk them before they get in the plane.
 
On my trip to OSH last year I was near gross on departure. I too used allot more runway but she climbed steady and I was able to trim her for a 90 knot climb at a little over 500 FPM.
 
I sometimes find that I think out loud, when I took 3 women for a burger run last year, one of whom was my wife , I asked all of them to whisper thier weight in my ear so that I could do a weight and balance. They all willingly agreed when I explained it was a matter of safety. The problem came up when my wife whispered in my ear and I mistakenly said , yea right add forty !, Still in the dog house for that one.:hairraise:
 
When flying women, alwYs loosen seat belts to the max. It makes them feel good if they need to tighten them rather than loosen.

Of course... Some make actually need an extender. I don't recommend putting that on ahead of time.
 
I fly a 180hp Comanche based at a sea level airport. Flew over to Spokane a few weeks ago with wife and kids and luggage for a weekend. 4500' density altitude upon departure from Deer Park. It was the slowest accelerating takeoff I've ever encountered. I leaned on the run up and expected the lack of performance. I was still off the ground before being half way down the runway. I could see how startling the lack of performance could be, especially if you weren't expecting it.
Fly Safe,
Kevin
 
Vaflier said:
I asked all of them to whisper thier weight in my ear so that I could do a weight and balance. They all willingly agreed when I explained it was a matter of safety.
Click to expand...

But do you really think they're being truthful? If one women is on board I just take a good guess...likely my guess is more accurate than what she'd tell me anyway.

What I've done on the rare occasion I've flown multiple women is:

I tell them why I need to know total weight and that they need to round their weight up to an even ten (i. e. if you weigh 114 then your weight is 120).

I then wisper a rounded weight into the first one's ear, like 120#.

She adds her weight, rounded, and whispers into the next ear, that one adds and whispers, etc. the last one gives me to total and I subtract the original 120#. That gives me the total weight and no one knows any individual weight.

As far as balance is concerned, It's easily to tell who's heaviest and lightest and arrange them as needed.

I've only done this a handful of times in 1,600 hours...but it seemed to work well...assuming all know how to do simple math. But I always have a number in my head beforehand and if the total I get isn't close then we do it again, in reverse order.
 
our club checkout in our Saratoga requires a max gross flight, because sandbags are much more forgiving than your family when you load up all the seats and head out of BJC on a summer day and you let slip "Whoa? What?" as you take off...

Not scary, just different.
 
Shepherd said:
I had a woman refuse to get in the plane, rather than disclose her actual weight.
Click to expand...

Me too...

I am fairly proficient at guessing weights but there is no good to come from that either...

I now have a plane that...as long as I have 4 people...it pretty much comes down to CG. I distribute them by "volume".
 
timwinters said:
What I've done on the rare occasion I've flown multiple women is:

I tell them why I need to know total weight and that they need to round their weight up to an even ten (i. e. if you weigh 114 then your weight is 120).

I then wisper a rounded weight into the first one's ear, like 120#.

She adds her weight, rounded, and whispers into the next ear, that one adds and whispers, etc. the last one gives me to total and I subtract the original 120#. That gives me the total weight and no one knows any individual weight.
Click to expand...

I like that! Could even skip the subtraction step at the end by giving your own weight as the initial input.
 
Estimation is usually close enough.
 
You were correct is everything you did. When considering the time of year, the temperatures we've had recently and the density altitude, your aircraft performance is going to be substantially decreased, so flying under gross weight is generally a good idea, especially if operating from shorter runways. When you think you close to gross weight, but not certain, NEVER rely on an estimate. That's horrible advice.
 
SbestCFII said:
You were correct is everything you did. When considering the time of year, the temperatures we've had recently and the density altitude, your aircraft performance is going to be substantially decreased, so flying under gross weight is generally a good idea, especially if operating from shorter runways. When you think you close to gross weight, but not certain, NEVER rely on an estimate. That's horrible advice.
Click to expand...
I know it's a bit different with smaller airplanes, but of course airliners not only use estimated (standard) weights but also an estimated arm. At least some assume the passengers are evenly dispersed, so the center of the cabin is the standard arm.

When I was flying corporate we also used standard weights, and that airplane was only nine passengers.
 
timwinters said:
But do you really think they're being truthful? If one women is on board I just take a good guess...likely my guess is more accurate than what she'd tell me anyway.

What I've done on the rare occasion I've flown multiple women is:

I tell them why I need to know total weight and that they need to round their weight up to an even ten (i. e. if you weigh 114 then your weight is 120).

I then wisper a rounded weight into the first one's ear, like 120#.

She adds her weight, rounded, and whispers into the next ear, that one adds and whispers, etc. the last one gives me to total and I subtract the original 120#. That gives me the total weight and no one knows any individual weight.

As far as balance is concerned, It's easily to tell who's heaviest and lightest and arrange them as needed.

I've only done this a handful of times in 1,600 hours...but it seemed to work well...assuming all know how to do simple math. But I always have a number in my head beforehand and if the total I get isn't close then we do it again, in reverse order.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't work for me...the women in my family can't do math in heir heads.:rolleyes:
 
WakeNCAgent said:
I recently hosted out of town guests and offered to take them on a scenic flight around Raleigh; it was me and two pax. Luckily, I've shed nearly 30lb over the past year thanks to regular exercise and that pretty much saved the flight. When I asked my pax to step on the scale they weighed a collective 90 pounds more than I expected! That normally wouldn't be a big deal, but these were two healthy specimens and that only left us roughly 70 pounds below max gross at takeoff.

This was a first for me. I normally fly just myself or maybe with one other person of average weight. I was both surprised and exhilarated by the plane's response. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the plane felt more "substantial" in a weird sort of way.

172 pilots may know what I mean. In a normal (for me) departure, the plane lifts off the runway by itself rather quickly. BTW, I regularly fly a 180-hp model S. In this case, I had to apply positive nose up input to effect the rotation and it felt great! It felt like I was flying a much bigger plane. Nothing unsafe, mind you; we were well within the envelope of the airplane but it just felt like a bigger airplane. When I compared the takeoff in the video with one I filmed last week, the roll was 33% longer in duration; mostly due to the lower rate of acceleration.

I can't wait to do this again, under the right conditions. Just for an added margin of safety, I left my 18lb flight bag in the car and only brought my chart and the POH with me in the plane. I don't really have a question but thought I would share the experience. I'd like to hear about your experience flying near (or beyond) max gross and what you may have learned from it.

Just for the record, I consider myself a conscientious pilot. In fact, we left behind a fourth pax that had been promised a seat because of the weight issue.
Click to expand...

A pilot shouldn't be anxious about gross weight ops but he should be aware of how it affects performance. Acceleration can be sluggish, climb rate diminished, and approach speeds increased, but stability in rough air is improved, sometimes cruise speed is faster, etc. One thing to beware of is short field ops. Know your plane and your capabilities when heavy and operating anyplace where you margin for runway length and obstacle clearance may be of concern. And one thing about gross weight ops that may surprise you unexpectedly? Braking may be much less effective than you expect.

Sand bags are cheap ballast. A guy should practice and be proficient in weights and CGs he's anticipated to fly.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I've never asked anyone's weight when flying a small GA airplane. :dunno:
Click to expand...

They will just about always lie! I am pretty good at estimating weight and I generally think I am on the high side. If a woman for some strange reason tells you the truth, she weighs 130 lbs, you have to add for clothing, people weigh themselves naked or in underwear, add for a woman's pocketbook anywhere from 2-15 lbs, and the fact that she weight she gave you was from 8 months ago after her stomach flu! :D
 
I tell my passengers it's an FAA safety requirement, and add 10%.

8 years ago, I was scheduled on a full MD80 out of KBUR on a 105 degree day. I watched the Captain doing W&B on the computer, shaking his head. Then, the gate agent told us we had two choices: 1) Leave our luggage at KBUR and it would arrive on the next flight, or 2) Take off with minimal fuel and land at KPSP 15 minutes later to pick up fuel and use the longer runway there..

The captain chose the KPSP option, and we arrived safe and sound, though late, at KDFW.

So it's not just the little guys!
 
At one point in history we were approved for 1) standard weights 2) actual weights (scale) 3) solicited weights. If we used solicited weights we had to add 10 pounds per person according to our manual.
 
I heard tell that when DayJet was operating the Eclipse 500 in Florida, they had scales built into the floor at the reception desk so they could get the weight of pax and bags without asking. Don't know if it's true or not, though.
 
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