NDBs?

NDBs and Me

  • NDBs are good--learn old fashioned approaches, and listen to the radio!

    Votes: 27 46.6%

  • NDBs at least are a physical "thing" helping you to hone to a specific place!

    Votes: 11 19.0%

  • Sell them on Ebay to aviation history buffs. They'll think of a use for them!

    Votes: 12 20.7%

  • What's an NDB? Is that a button on my G1000 panel?

    Votes: 8 13.8%
  • Total voters
    58
spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Feb 22, 2005
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Ben
When I was working towards my IR, my CFII made me fly several NDB approaches, including PP approaches. They did a number on me, but if nothing else, they made everything else look easy.

What are your thoughts?
 
Soon to be completely irrelevant as NDBs are decommissioned, but I know a few NDB approaches still in use, and I am glad I learned to fly 'em. Good brain food.

My ADF still works.
 
SCCutler said:
Soon to be completely irrelevant as NDBs are decommissioned, but I know a few NDB approaches still in use, and I am glad I learned to fly 'em. Good brain food.

My ADF still works.
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Good brain food, is right. I'm thankful I had the chance to do them! (I'm also thankful I will never have to fly one in actual!)
 
I'm one of the weirdos that like NDB approaches. But we pulled our ADF when it failed, nevertheless. Not worth repairing it looking into the crystal ball.
 
I don't know which of your boxes to check, Ben, but I'll never forget my first Lake Michigan crossing at the controls of a friend's airplane. It was hazy as heck, in fact instrument conditions (though legal VFR), and the HSI had an intermittent problem that just decided to act up that day and was precessing uncontrollably. My only usable navigational instrument for about 20 minutes out there was a good old-fashioned ADF, homing in on some now-defunct NDB somewhere in the vicinity of Lake Winnebago. I actually flew a couple of practice NDB approaches in that plane, however that was at a field where they have since let the NDB go permanently OTS. (Last I checked though, the ILS chart still says ADF required in the plan view.)

I have not flown in an airplane with an ADF since she sold that one, and my Cardinal does not have one. I can't say that I really miss it.
 
I used an NDB only ones. I planned to make a turn when I get to the river and there was an NDB 1nm away, so the easiest way to tell Lockheed my flight route was to file an NDB as a "checkpoint".
 
I may be biased by the fact that I grew up before GPS, and NDB's were the only way in at many airports. So, IFR planes had ADF's, and we had to learn NDB approaches.

Today, there aren't many (if any) airports where an airplane with VOR/ILS and approach GPS can't get in unless they also have an ADF. Airplanes with approach GPS usually lost their ADF when the GPS is installed or came from the factory without an ADF. For those reasons, I don't see any significant point in training anyone on ADF/NDB unless their plane is equipped with an ADF, in which case they really should know how to use whatever they've got in the plane. And if they have both ADF and approach GPS, I advise them to lose the ADF and use the extra weight for something more valuable, like another gallon of gas, and drop a pound or two of drag from the antenna array to save more gas/add range.
 
I'm all for dropping a few pounds from your aircraft. But in light of the pilot himself gaining a few pounds I gotta wonder.
 
My most memorable NDB approach was on my IR checkride. Flown perfectly, needle centered not moving, we "broke out" and the airport was just where it was supposed to be. Problem was, returning to originating airport the needle never moved from it's last indication (which fortunately was on the final approach).

I love NDBs. I do understand how grave the consequences but I do love em.
 
I'm started out as an old timer, but have been a moving map GPS advocate since around 1993. I couldn't care less about NDB's, and won't miss VORs either. They're just an electronic means of navigation, that were replaced by a much better electronic means of navigation.

As far as I'm concerned, if a new student get's an instructor who throws the student's GPS into the back seat, with a smirk on their face...........then throw the instructor out!

On one of these forums, the term "Irrational Old Guy Disease" was used as a term for those, who believe that an OBS must be tuned before every flight. I love that term! :D

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
As far as I'm concerned, if a new student get's an instructor who throws the student's GPS into the back seat, with a smirk on their face...........then throw the instructor out!
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If we're talking hand-held GPS, it's like every other tool in the cockpit -- you have to be able to fly safely if one tool fails. For example, I require the trainee to learn to orient, intercept, and track using the raw VOR data before using a GPS -- every now and then, the INTEG light does seem to come on, so you'd better be able to work without it. Of course, I also stress the importance of using every tool available when things go wrong, and I know DPE's who will fail the applicant if they give a partial panel and the applicant doesn't pull out and use the handheld GPS to help without prompting.

And I'm the same way on primary trainees -- no GPS until they can navigate with nothing but a sectional, compass, airspeed, and clock. Then they get to use the GPS, but I guarantee it will fail at some point on their recommendation ride.;)
 
Until recently, all the old planes I've rented had an ADF that didn't work any more. I was starting to wonder if INOPERATIVE was a brand name for ADF receivers, because that's what they were all labeled.

That was until I rented a 172 in Montana last summer -- and the ADF worked -- I was amazed.
 
Ron Levy said:
I may be biased by the fact that I grew up before GPS, and NDB's were the only way in at many airports. So, IFR planes had ADF's, and we had to learn NDB approaches.

Today, there aren't many (if any) airports where an airplane with VOR/ILS and approach GPS can't get in unless they also have an ADF. Airplanes with approach GPS usually lost their ADF when the GPS is installed or came from the factory without an ADF. For those reasons, I don't see any significant point in training anyone on ADF/NDB unless their plane is equipped with an ADF, in which case they really should know how to use whatever they've got in the plane. And if they have both ADF and approach GPS, I advise them to lose the ADF and use the extra weight for something more valuable, like another gallon of gas, and drop a pound or two of drag from the antenna array to save more gas/add range.
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From what I hear, if you live down here and you think of flying down to Mexico there might be a good reason to learn to use the ADF. That's hearsay, mind you.

Ryan
 
I'ved learned NDB approaches, but they are quickly becoming out of date.

For a IA checkride though, If an ADF is installed in the airplane, and there are still functioning NDB's near by, I think you gotta be prepared for one.
 
we did lots and lots of partial panel ndb approaches during training at the school I was. that was back when nearly every paved runway in Iowa had an NDB approach. They've started to decommission them now as they break down which is really a shame but oh well. I enjoy the beauty and simplicity of a well flown NDB approach. That said when I have somewhere to go I take the club plane with the WAAS 430 every time instead of the other two that have ADF.
 
RyanShort1 said:
From what I hear, if you live down here and you think of flying down to Mexico there might be a good reason to learn to use the ADF. That's hearsay, mind you.
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Or if you fly to Canada. A lot of places in other parts of the world still have NDBs.

I'm actually interested in installing an ADF in the 310. It makes trips to Canada, and I'd like to have something that will help me if the GPS fails. Where I go, there ain't no VORs.
 
I learned them (back when you could still practice approaches at GAI) and I think they're a good skill to have, but the need for the skill is going away, just like all my skills at editing music with a razor blade went away as digital audio came along.
 
RyanShort1 said:
From what I hear, if you live down here and you think of flying down to Mexico there might be a good reason to learn to use the ADF. That's hearsay, mind you.
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If you're looking at international flying, that's very true. Outside the USA, they don't have near the percentage of airports with GPS approaches, and NDB's may be the only thing you've got.
 
ajstoner21 said:
For a IA checkride though, If an ADF is installed in the airplane, and there are still functioning NDB's near by, I think you gotta be prepared for one.
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In that case, you absolutely must be prepared. The examiner, not the applicant, gets to choose which approaches you'll fly.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're looking at international flying, that's very true. Outside the USA, they don't have near the percentage of airports with GPS approaches, and NDB's may be the only thing you've got.
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In my case, I tend to go to northern Quebec near the James Bay. All the airports I go into have GPS approaches (in fact, those are frequently the only approaches available). However, the only means of navigation other than GPS are NDBs. I'm most comfortable up there when I'm in a plane that has a GPS, ADF, and a hand-held GPS for backup. That way I'm pretty well covered unless I have a total electrical failure (unlikely) and GPS fails or my hand-held quits (also unlikely).
 
Only 1 out of 3 IFR airplanes I fly have an ADF. I have done some NDB approaches on the simulator and know how to use one but I'm not going to waste precious $$ actually practicing them in the airplane. And i'll take my check ride in an airplane with no ADF
 
dell30rb said:
Only 1 out of 3 IFR airplanes I fly have an ADF. I have done some NDB approaches on the simulator and know how to use one but I'm not going to waste precious $$ actually practicing them in the airplane. And i'll take my check ride in an airplane with no ADF
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One point arising...

There is nothing in the regulations to say you can't do your IR training and practical test in a plane with only two VOR's and GS (or even only one VOR with GS), and then the next day jump in a plane with a WAAS GPS and an ADF and try flying LNAV, LPV, and NDB approaches to minimums in the worst weather imaginable. It's primarily only common sense that would prevent one from doing that without first getting some training in those areas. Even transitioning from the KLN-94 on which you trained to a Garmin 430 may require some ground and flight training to do it safely.
 
Ron Levy said:
One point arising...

There is nothing in the regulations to say you can't do your IR training and practical test in a plane with only two VOR's and GS (or even only one VOR with GS), and then the next day jump in a plane with a WAAS GPS and an ADF and try flying LNAV, LPV, and NDB approaches to minimums in the worst weather imaginable.
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Fortunately I have some common sense!

The aircraft I fly all have GPS and VOR w/ GS + DME but only one has an ADF, and I'm guessing its going to be yanked soon.
 
dell30rb said:
Fortunately I have some common sense!

The aircraft I fly all have GPS and VOR w/ GS + DME but only one has an ADF, and I'm guessing its going to be yanked soon.
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With that other gear in the plane, that's what I'd do. In fact, that's what I did in my Tiger when the 530 was installed. DME went, too.
 
Richard said:
I'm all for dropping a few pounds from your aircraft. But in light of the pilot himself gaining a few pounds I gotta wonder.
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Hahaha good point! I'm pleased to say I've lost 20 lbs in the past half year!
 
Ron Levy said:
With that other gear in the plane, that's what I'd do. In fact, that's what I did in my Tiger when the 530 was installed. DME went, too.
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When the 430W went in the panel in the club's 172N the ADF got pulled, but the DME remained. Backup. And, DME arcs aren't difficult to fly with the DME, either. And everything you need is in bigger numbers on the DME (the font, not the numbers themselves).

The 182 is still without GPS. Two VORs, 1 GS, 1 DME and one ADF for listening to ball games while flying across the state.

And if you're flying in our neck of the woods and are looking for a scenic airport, KFHR only has two approaches. RNAV (GPS) and NDB. Fly one with the 172 and the other with the 182. Forget it with our Arrow. No GPS (approach certified, anyway) and the ADF was INOP last I looked. What are you going to do? :D
 
We only have one working ADF in over a dozen planes at my school. I'm in instrument training now and I want to learn NDB approaches even if they are being phased out. Probably stay away from em on the checkride though
 
Horus927 said:
We only have one working ADF in over a dozen planes at my school. I'm in instrument training now and I want to learn NDB approaches even if they are being phased out. Probably stay away from em on the checkride though
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Make sure you take one of the 11 that are not equipped with an ADF to the ride.
 
Ron Levy said:
And I'm the same way on primary trainees -- no GPS until they can navigate with nothing but a sectional, compass, airspeed, and clock. Then they get to use the GPS, but I guarantee it will fail at some point on their recommendation ride.;)
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I do get a kick out of arguing these same points, with a friend who fly's heavies, and is still an instructor as well. Actually, there are two commercial pilot/instructor friends that I often discuss these points with.

In this day and age, I believe it should be GPS on the first day of instruction. Afterall, a few years back, there was a test conducted with new PPL students using the Garmin 1000 glass panel & the standard "six pac". The "glass panel" students had an edge in navigation right off the bat, as they started with nav on day one. They also completed their PPL ahead of the six pack users.

And so what, if it's handheld. My Garmin 696 is more like a mini Garmin 1000, than a small Lowarance 600c which is my backup. At to GPS failing, sure you can fail it on a recommendation ride, but don't give the student the impression that failure is a common trait. It's now been 18 years since I've lost a GPS signal with my "portable" unit's. They've all been dedicated aviation unit's with external antenna's being used.

We're not still in the old days. There is a lot more restricted airspace, than in the past. There is no reason to promote the old way's as if it's badge of passage to be a pilot. The "old way" is inferior, and that is all there is to it. Sure, the finer points of of using sectionals need to be taught. It's silly and sometimes deadly for anyone to just hit "direct" on a GPS and follow the magenta line. But with all of the added info, that GPSs can provide at a quick glance, it's also stupid to regulate them to a flight bag in the back seat.

As I said before,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if an instructor insist's on throwing the GPS in the back, then throw them (him/her) out!

L.Adamson
 
I have one in my warrior, cept it has a little sticker that says "INOP" across the face. I wish it worked, but not enough to spend the money getting it fixed and installing an antenna for it. Even if the beacons are taken out, it can still home in on known a.m. radio signals. Having a radio to listen to would be nice on long XC flights. Just another tool that might get you there.

John
 
If I'm shooting an NDB approach, I'm in a near emergency situation.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Make sure you take one of the 11 that are not equipped with an ADF to the ride.
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Well I know that...the only working one is in an old 172P. I'm taking my checkrides in one of the twins and the 172S on the single side for some glass work.
 
Horus927 said:
Well I know that...the only working one is in an old 172P. I'm taking my checkrides in one of the twins and the 172S on the single side for some glass work.
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Others may disagree but I'd tell you not to worry with even learning how to fly an NDB approach, unless you plan on doing lots of Mexico/South America flying, I'd spend the time honing VOR approaches and even those are becoming antiquated with GPS all over, but worth learning. Last VOR approach I shot was into JFK of all places.
 
BellyUpFish said:
Others may disagree but I'd tell you not to worry with even learning how to fly an NDB approach, unless you plan on doing lots of Mexico/South America flying,
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...unless there's a working ADF in the plane in which you'll take the practical test and an NDB approach withing fuel range. In that case, you'd best be prepared to execute an NDB approach on the test (and Lord help the CFI-IA whose trainee tells the examiner, "My instructor said it wasn't necessary because I'd never really do one.").
 
I think Belly has a valid point in that the NDB approaches, for a lot of people, would be better spent honing VOR approaches.

For me, learning NDB approaches was more about having an extra tool in the bag (even if I wasn't likely to use it), and for general education purposes. I still completed my IR in about minimum time. I'm glad that I learned them. Reality of actually using one? Pretty slim. But it's something that I liked knowing if nothing else so I can say I've done them. The reality for me is that almost all the approaches I do are either ILS or GPS, and I think that's becoming more the norm. I'm still glad that I know how to do VOR and NDB approaches - more tools in the bag.
 
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