Navy moves to allow women on submarines

True, but neither of those involved raping/pillaging/etc. simply for the sake of doing it. Burning crops, houses, etc. - that's a part of war. Unfortunate, but a part of it nonetheless. Same as the air campaigns above. The question still remains, however - how *much* did it contribute? The end result in both instances was assured - neither the Indians nor the French were going to win.
I think we need to make a distinction between some things that were, rightly or wrongly, part of a military strategy, and ad hoc looting and pillaging which smacks of revenge.
 
I think we need to make a distinction between some things that were, rightly or wrongly, part of a military strategy, and ad hoc looting and pillaging which smacks of revenge.

One Soviet "technique" during WW2 was "See that village?! Take it and it's yours for 24 hours..."

They made it to Berlin and the Elbe River.

The mother of one of my high school students told that story when she came in to recount her expereince as a child in WW2. She said her father would mark the map each night and then they would pray that the Americans would arrive first.
 
In fact we know the raids on Japan were very effective...

When you drop nuclear bombs, that changes the equation.

Then there was the firebombing raid on Tokyo where LeMay sent the B-29s in at 500 feet with incendiaries. Burned out 16 square miles of the heart of Tokyo and killed more people in that night than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. You don't need nuclear weapons to cause tremendous damage. Just a highly flammable city and fire bombs.
 
I pointed out that you can't really compare them; I also pointed out that there was far more at work in Japan than mere bombings? :confused:

No need for you to be so confused. You stated that bombing was ineffective and I correctly pointed out that it was effective. You offered no qualifiers in your original claim so adding them later is pointless, defensive, and shows lack of maturity in debate.

Of course you can try to argue that Japan would have surrendered without an invasion *and* without bombing. Good luck with that.
 
No need for you to be so confused. You stated that bombing was ineffective and I correctly pointed out that it was effective. You offered no qualifiers in your original claim so adding them later is pointless, defensive, and shows lack of maturity in debate.

What debate? Such a thing usually involves more than ad hominems, which is all you've added with the above.

Of course you can try to argue that Japan would have surrendered without an invasion *and* without bombing. Good luck with that.
Why would I argue that? It isn't what happened, which is what I've confined my comments to.
 
What debate? Such a thing usually involves more than ad hominems, which is all you've added with the above.

Why would I argue that? It isn't what happened, which is what I've confined my comments to.

Not a single ad hominem in my statements of fact. You'll have to do much better than that.

In your original claim you did not make any qualifiers in the claim that bombing was ineffective. It is not an ad hominem to point out that fact.

I suggest you retire now before you dig yourself in deeper.
 
No need for you to be so confused. You stated that bombing was ineffective and I correctly pointed out that it was effective. You offered no qualifiers in your original claim so adding them later is pointless, defensive, and shows lack of maturity in debate.

Of course you can try to argue that Japan would have surrendered without an invasion *and* without bombing. Good luck with that.

You should read Armageddon too. :)
 
Not a single ad hominem in my statements of fact. You'll have to do much better than that.

What statements of fact? You made some statements; I'm not sure they qualify as factual.

In your original claim you did not make any qualifiers in the claim that bombing was ineffective. It is not an ad hominem to point out that fact.
There weren't qualifiers then, nor have there been since. I'm surprised you're missing that. I just went back and reread - for the third time now - what I wrote. I don't see any "qualifiers." Maybe you should explain some more.

I suggest you retire now before you dig yourself in deeper.
Dig myself in deeper how? I've written exactly what took place; exactly what you'll find in any reliable record you'll look at; exactly what just about every credible commentator for the last 65 years has written - the surrender of Japan (and Germany, but it seems we've moved out of Europe) was somewhat more complex than "they a-bombed us into submission." Although that's the popular notion, it ain't what happened.

If you'd like to point out what you think the inaccuracies, or "qualifiers," or "immaturity," or "pointless" points, in what I've written are, feel free - I'd be happy to discuss them. Maybe I'm completely in the wrong. So get to showing it, and maybe we can have the non-"immature" debate you're apparently after.

Or is this one of those "he's writing things that I haven't heard before and don't like because it's that crazy revisionist history" type of things?
 
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What statements of fact? You made some statements; I'm not sure they qualify as factual.

There weren't qualifiers then, nor have there been since. I'm surprised you're missing that. I just went back and reread - for the third time now - what I wrote. I don't see any "qualifiers." Maybe you should explain some more.

Dig myself in deeper how? I've written exactly what took place; exactly what you'll find in any reliable record you'll look at; exactly what just about every credible commentator for the last 65 years has written - the surrender of Japan (and Germany, but it seems we've moved out of Europe) was somewhat more complex than "they a-bombed us into submission." Although that's the popular notion, it ain't what happened.

If you'd like to point out what you think the inaccuracies, or "qualifiers," or "immaturity," or "pointless" points, in what I've written are, feel free - I'd be happy to discuss them. Maybe I'm completely in the wrong. So get to showing it, and maybe we can have the non-"immature" debate you're apparently after.

Or is this one of those "he's writing things that I haven't heard before and don't like because it's that crazy revisionist history" type of things?


Well let's just see here now. First you claim that bombing was ineffective. Then when I correctly pointed out that bombing was effective you back-tracked and claimed that the bombing was not within your original statement, e.g. that somehow you didn't include the raids on Nagasaki and Hiroshima in your original claim even though they were clearly not disclaimed. That little deviation is evidence of immature argument. Bombing is bombing whether you wish to accept it or not.

Now you attempt to obfuscate the argument with various ploys which further highlights your immaturity in debate. The facts remain and your pathetic and pointless denial remains.

I'm sorry you can't admit the error in your argument and there is absolutely nothing I can do about your denial since it is internally generated and self-perpetuating.

At this point all I will say is that I will not continue an argument with a sick mind. Have a nice day.
 
Warfare isn't violence for the sake of violence. It's controlled, directed, with the specific goal of getting your enemy to do what you want.
That sounds eerily similar to the definition of terrorism that we had in another thread.:yikes:
 
Anyone really think that sex wasn't and isn't happening on combat subs?


I'll guarantee you that homosexual submariners are not tolerated. They are dealt with quickly by removing those individuals from the fleet, immediately.

As a surface skimmer in the 70's we dealt with it in a less formal way. You better know how to swim. ;)
 
That sounds eerily similar to the definition of terrorism that we had in another thread.:yikes:

The difference between Terrorism and "legitimate" warfare is in the choice of targets, not in the acts of violence. "Legitimate" warfare directs violence against combatants and their supporting facilities i.e. you try to bomb the factory, not the library. Terrorism generally targets non-combatants and their facilities.
 
The difference between Terrorism and "legitimate" warfare is in the choice of targets, not in the acts of violence. "Legitimate" warfare directs violence against combatants and their supporting facilities i.e. you try to bomb the factory, not the library. Terrorism generally targets non-combatants and their facilities.
But weren't we just talking in this thread about bombing towns and villages? It seems as if the distinction is at least debatable, though probably in the SZ; not here.
 
I'll guarantee you that homosexual submariners are not tolerated. They are dealt with quickly by removing those individuals from the fleet, immediately.

As a surface skimmer in the 70's we dealt with it in a less formal way. You better know how to swim. ;)


Wow, so you actually killed gay people just for being gay back in the 70's? If I ever make it to a POA fly in I will remember to stay away from you lest you kill me too...
 
It amazes me that rape can occur in the military. There are firearms all over the place. If someone raped me in such an atmosphere I wouldn't use the chain of command, I'd be out for revenge.
 
It amazes me that rape can occur in the military. There are firearms all over the place. If someone raped me in such an atmosphere I wouldn't use the chain of command, I'd be out for revenge.

Um.... except in active war zones, there are NOT firearms all over the place. They're in the armory.
 
It amazes me that rape can occur in the military. There are firearms all over the place. If someone raped me in such an atmosphere I wouldn't use the chain of command, I'd be out for revenge.

Um.... except in active war zones, there are NOT firearms all over the place. They're in the armory.

Exactly why the attack at Ft. Hood was not terminated immediately with return fire ...
 
I'll guarantee you that homosexual submariners are not tolerated. They are dealt with quickly by removing those individuals from the fleet, immediately.

As a surface skimmer in the 70's we dealt with it in a less formal way. You better know how to swim. ;)

Nice. :no:
 
I'll guarantee you that homosexual submariners are not tolerated. They are dealt with quickly by removing those individuals from the fleet, immediately.

As a surface skimmer in the 70's we dealt with it in a less formal way. You better know how to swim. ;)

If you were betting $ you'd lose.

Anyone think that rape is only a problem when women and men mix?
 
Yes I do. I'm talking more about consentual relations. Obviously, they have not had that self control to date.

If it's consentual ... who cares? As long as the do their jobs. Just have a
little love room where they can go with contraceptives available.
 
If it's consentual ... who cares? As long as the do their jobs. Just have a
little love room where they can go with contraceptives available.

And a live video feed to the chiefs mess...:lol::lol:

Do they even have a chiefs mess on a sub?
 
Wow, so you actually killed gay people just for being gay back in the 70's? If I ever make it to a POA fly in I will remember to stay away from you lest you kill me too...


No need to worry, I'm enlightened now.

You can swin can't you? :lol: ............... I'm kidding! :lol:


Back then the Navy did not tolerate homosexuals and they were dealt with harshly and taken off the ship within hours if someone came out of the closet. It's just the way it was. Things have come a long way I know, but this was 40 years ago also. What can I say?
 
No need to worry, I'm enlightened now.

You can swin can't you? :lol: ............... I'm kidding! :lol:


Back then the Navy did not tolerate homosexuals and they were dealt with harshly and taken off the ship within hours if someone came out of the closet. It's just the way it was. Things have come a long way I know, but this was 40 years ago also. What can I say?

That is good to know (the enlightened part). I guess the whole country has come a long way since then. I think it was in the 70's that homosexuality was removed from the DSM as a mental illness. Of course that makes me wonder if I could have got a Third Class Medical back then...
 
I think there are a few folks here allowing their imagination to run wild.


how many posters have ever been on a modern sub such as a boomer or patrol subs?

once you have been on one you won't see any problems of a female being there.

the problems I see are this, "TRAINING" the sub mariners have a vary rigorous training program. it requires a very strong body. I simply hope the training tract will not be down graded to allow females to pass and not be able to actually do the job.

and to place you minds at rest there are NO private places on a sub, you are in some ones view at all times.
 
OBTW I have been on a sub at Bangor Naval Station. they are beautiful inside.

they ain't your daddy's diesel boat.
 
That is good to know (the enlightened part). I guess the whole country has come a long way since then. I think it was in the 70's that homosexuality was removed from the DSM as a mental illness. Of course that makes me wonder if I could have got a Third Class Medical back then...


I never thought about the medical thing. Good point. Pretty sure back then most of society was "Don't ask, Don't tell". :lol:
 
Back then the Navy did not tolerate homosexuals and they were dealt with harshly and taken off the ship within hours if someone came out of the closet.

Sounds like if the captain didn't transfer em off the ship, the crew chunked em over the rail... either way it sounds like "taken off the ship within hours" is an accurate statement..
 
I think there are a few folks here allowing their imagination to run wild.


how many posters have ever been on a modern sub such as a boomer or patrol subs?

once you have been on one you won't see any problems of a female being there.

the problems I see are this, "TRAINING" the sub mariners have a vary rigorous training program. it requires a very strong body. I simply hope the training tract will not be down graded to allow females to pass and not be able to actually do the job.

and to place you minds at rest there are NO private places on a sub, you are in some ones view at all times.
Oh, puleez.

Individuals should be judged by their skills, abilities, and aptitudes. Just because you think the "average" woman doesn't have the skills, abilities or aptitudes to be submariners stop to remember that the "average" man doesn't either. When an individual woman does have those attributes, don't shut your eyes and claim she is dragging down the men.

Several years ago when I knew a US submariner rather well, we discussed how difficult it was to find men who were short enough to man submarines and fighter jets in the Navy. Too bad there wasn't a pool of talented individuals of shorter average stature from which to pull recruits.
 
Combat effectiveness should be the only consideration. Are mixed gender military units more, or less, combat effective than single gender units? I don't see any female athletes on professional football or baseball or other high level physical activity sports. Why then should females feel entitled to engage in the ultimate kill or be killed human activity? When females were first assigned to combat ships a very few could pass the existing physical requirements so the requirements were changed to accommodate "gender differences." Did they make the ladders less steep or make wounded sailors less heavy? Ask yourself this question: if you were in a burning compartment and unable to get to safety on your own, would you want a 110 pound female sailor (or to make it fair) a 110 pound male sailor to show up and carry you out? On an all male ship most sailors would weigh significantly more than 110 but even so, I bet that 110 pound guy has a better chance of saving your butt than the female. Sure there are 180 pound females that could kick my patootie but our politically correct leaders aren't restricting sea duty to women like that.

Women are no less mentally competent, patriotic or heroic than men. Unfortunately, war is the ultimate test of communal and individual physical as well as mental stamina and it's been my experience that units decrease their combat effectiveness when forced to accept women into their ranks. I want our military to be the deadliest, most awesome force, it can be so that every soldier, sailor, airman and marine has the best chance of surviving and returning home alive. Unless someone can show that assigning women to submarines increases or even maintains the current combat effectiveness of the force, I'd say it's doing a disservice to those sailors being sent into harms way--all for the sake of political correctness.
 
I don't see any female athletes on professional football or baseball or other high level physical activity sports. Why then should females feel entitled to engage in the ultimate kill or be killed human activity?

This was the same argument used by men when I got into law enforcement to try to keep us out. I passed the exact same entry tests the guys did. The only difference in requirements were height and weight minimums which were adjusted for the different sexes, but the body pulls, runs, push ups (standard push ups too, no "female" style allowed), sit ups etc were all the same. The only test I had problems with was the 6ft wall . That was because I had a guy trying to tell me how to get over the thing using nothing but upper body strength. When I figured out to ignore the man and use my head and figure it out myself, I did just fine getting over it. Not that it ever came in handy. In all my years on-duty I never had to jump a 6ft wall (and never saw any guys try to do it either). I never had an incident that any lack of brute upper body strength prevented me from getting the job done.

Point is, guys like to use "brute strength" as an argument to keep women out of combat positions. But I think women in law enforcement have shown for many years that using your brain and figuring out your way around a problem is just as valuable, if not more so, than bullying your way through using all muscle. Would I like to have as much upper body strength as guys do? Sure, but adrenaline is an amazing thing, and women have moved people and things with it during high stress situations where men would not have thought they could. The argument is way past old. It's about time the military is doing away with artificial barriers.

And before someone points out that some hand-to-hand type combat positions are much more physically demanding on a regular basis that law enforcement, I don't dispute that may be true, but come on... on a submarine? Good grief. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, come on. I jumped over lots of tall walls and fences in the early years of my career, chasing some doper or somesuch. I was an athlete and darn capable. But here's the thing: Half of the time I would then turn the corner to find the suspect already prone on the ground with a female officer handcuffing him. Someone smart enough to go around instead of over ;)

Combat isn't just about being stronger or faster than the other guy. Rescue isn't just about being strong enough to lift someone through. And firefighting isn't just about being the fastest up the ladder.
 
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This was the same argument used by men when I got into law enforcement to try to keep us out. I passed the exact same entry tests the guys did.

Congratulations on your success and thanks for doing an important job for the community. By your statements a woman can be just as effective a LEO as a man--I don't doubt it. I have seen police officers, however, who are anything but fit so it appears that other than an entrance requirement, maintaining a high level of fitness is not an ongoing priority for many.

Law enforcement and submarine duty are two different endeavors and have little in common. The Navy did change the physical requirements to accommodate women--that's a fact. Have you ever been on a submarine--I have. Every inch of space is crammed with equipment or stores. There are not even enough bunks for the number of sailors so hot racking is common (same bunk used by multiple people on different watches.)

Point is, guys like to use "brute strength" as an argument to keep women out of combat positions. But I think women in law enforcement have shown for many years that using your brain and figuring out your way around a problem is just as valuable, if not more so, than bullying your way through using all muscle. Would I like to have as much upper body strength as guys do? Sure, but adrenaline is an amazing thing, and women have moved people and things with it during high stress situations where men would not have thought they could. The argument is way past old. It's about time the military is doing away with artificial barriers.

And before someone points out that some hand-to-hand type combat positions are much more physically demanding on a regular basis that law enforcement, I don't dispute that may be true, but come on... on a submarine? Good grief. :rolleyes:

It's not a question about hand to hand combat for submarine duty (at least not with the enemy). It's a question about the phyisical and mental demands of extremely tight quarters under water for extended periods of time and combat effectiveness. Accommodating women also means providing at least some degree of separate facilities to allow for bathing and physical needs--there is little to no "extra space" for niceties like a women's latrine without eliminating something.

I have served as an operations officer at a remote unit who's duty included strenuous physical activity and firefighting in mountainous terrain. We were previously an all male unit but women were eventually assigned. We had the space and facilities to accommodate them but as for the normal duties involving anything physical--I could only use them in administrative capacities as they were a hazard to put on the line alongside the men.

I have served in combat and know that having women, even competent and physically fit women, can degrade the performance of a unit many times through no fault of their own. Like it or not, competition for female attention in prolonged combat situations does detract from the overall combat effectiveness of a unit. Decreased combat effectiveness leads to additional personnel coming home in body bags. All for the sake of some politicians and women's rights advocates who never have served in combat or intend to send their daughters to fight.
 
It's not a question about hand to hand combat for submarine duty (at least not with the enemy). It's a question about the phyisical and mental demands of extremely tight quarters under water for extended periods of time and combat effectiveness. Accommodating women also means providing at least some degree of separate facilities to allow for bathing and physical needs--there is little to no "extra space" for niceties like a women's latrine without eliminating something.

I have served as an operations officer at a remote unit who's duty included strenuous physical activity and firefighting in mountainous terrain. We were previously an all male unit but women were eventually assigned. We had the space and facilities to accommodate them but as for the normal duties involving anything physical--I could only use them in administrative capacities as they were a hazard to put on the line alongside the men.

I have served in combat and know that having women, even competent and physically fit women, can degrade the performance of a unit many times through no fault of their own. Like it or not, competition for female attention in prolonged combat situations does detract from the overall combat effectiveness of a unit. Decreased combat effectiveness leads to additional personnel coming home in body bags. All for the sake of some politicians and women's rights advocates who never have served in combat or intend to send their daughters to fight.


You should tell all that to the Israelis. Apparently they've been doing it wrong all these years.
 
Have you ever been on a submarine--I have. Every inch of space is crammed with equipment or stores. There are not even enough bunks for the number of sailors so hot racking is common (same bunk used by multiple people on different watches.)
I've been on a number of submarines that were opened up for tours and think that being small would be an advantage. I am more comfortable in cramped places than a big guy (or woman) might be, especially in something like a small bunk. That said, serving on a submarine is about the last thing I would choose to do whether I was male of female but that doesn't mean others shouldn't be prevented from trying.
 
Oh, puleez.

Individuals should be judged by their skills, abilities, and aptitudes. Just because you think the "average" woman doesn't have the skills, abilities or aptitudes to be submariners stop to remember that the "average" man doesn't either. When an individual woman does have those attributes, don't shut your eyes and claim she is dragging down the men.

...

"Puleez," indeed.

If you restrain your hair-trigger, you might notice that Mr. Downey said nothing at like what you have written; he raised the entirely valid *possible* issue of pure physical attributes, application of consistent standards.

One of the most credible and informed commentators in the thread, and you still throw-down on him. That's silly.
 
I've been trying to institute a new campaign in-line with the "Have your pets spayed or neutered" one that I so fervently encourage.

"Have your kids spayed or neutered."

It doesn't seem to be catching on.
I have a similar campaign called 'children should be seen and not had"

It too is not catching on.
 
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