NAV Audio Bleed Over to COM Audio

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I showed my IR student yesterday how to file PRIEPs over a VOR/XXX.XXR system. However, I had a horrible time as when ever I keyed the COM2, the NAV static would increase to an unbearable level. This led to FSS having a hard time understanding me and I having a hard time understanding him. I was able to yell enough to get the PRIEP across but quickly lost FSS in the HIWAS static. Mind you I was only roughly 20 miles away from the VOR. The COM2 works perfectly fine when the NAV audio is deselected.

I'm wondering if there is an RF bleed to the NAV radio or if it's the intercom panel. Anyone have a good troubleshooting technique for the next time I'm with the guy.
 
Don't get it. You're keyed, NAV static increases, you ignore it and speak. Can even turn it down -- they're not going to talk to you while you're transmitting -- and back up as soon as you unkey.

You unkey, and listen to FSS, static gone.

How was there an intelligibility problem?

But anyway -- probably just receiver overload. The transmitter nearby isn't that far off of the receive frequency of the Nav radio.

More interestingly, what did the OBS needle do when you were keyed on the Comm radio? Bet it wasn't pretty... Don't follow it IMC when you're keyed on the Comm radio if it's hammering the audio that badly...
 
What kind of radios?

PMA Audio Panel
COM1/NAV1: 430
COM2/NAV2: SL30

Don't get it. You're keyed, NAV static increases, you ignore it and speak. Can even turn it down -- they're not going to talk to you while you're transmitting -- and back up as soon as you unkey.

You unkey, and listen to FSS, static gone.

How was there an intelligibility problem?

But anyway -- probably just receiver overload. The transmitter nearby isn't that far off of the receive frequency of the Nav radio.

More interestingly, what did the OBS needle do when you were keyed on the Comm radio? Bet it wasn't pretty... Don't follow it IMC when you're keyed on the Comm radio if it's hammering the audio that badly...

@denverpilot FSS was picking up on the increased static. I also noticed RF bleed over to the Comm 1, as I was getting an RX flag. However, it's expected since the antennas are mounted next to each other and the freq was only off by .5 MHz.

I could barely understand FSS over the VOR, as it was mostly static. He was maybe 3/3, if that. HIWAS was also cutting in and out during his Tx covering him up. But I'm guessing that's a VOR issue. The main issue is, I'm pumping out a ton of static, on TX, if the NAV is selected. Also I'm almost never making FSS out. Towards the end of the contact he was was roaming in and out of the noise floor. I finally had to tell him I could no longer hear him and thanked him for his help. All I heard back was increased static.
 
@denverpilot FSS was picking up on the increased static. I also noticed RF bleed over to the Comm 1, as I was getting an RX flag. However, it's expected since the antennas are mounted next to each other and the freq was only off by .5 MHz.

I could barely understand FSS over the VOR, as it was mostly static. He was maybe 3/3, if that. HIWAS was also cutting in and out during his Tx covering him up. But I'm guessing that's a VOR issue. The main issue is, I'm pumping out a ton of static, on TX, if the NAV is selected. Also I'm almost never making FSS out. Towards the end of the contact he was was roaming in and out of the noise floor. I finally had to tell him I could no longer hear him and thanked him for his help. All I heard back was increased static.[/QUOTE]


Deconstruct this thinking about the systems involved...

FSS hearing static on your transmission: The path is your mic, through the audio panel, to the transmitter, his receiver, maybe a phone line or microwave path, and for all intents and purposes, his ears. The only way he can hear any static sourced in your airplane is if the Nav audio is somehow crossed over to your mic (not supposed to be possible in the audio panel unless it's midwifed) or being picked up by your mic -- was the overhead speaker on?

You hearing static and breakup on the audio being fed to the VOR: The HIWAS has to be interrupted whenever he keys his mic. It shouldn't be mixing that audio. I'm surprised there's one of these out there (but not discounting it) anymore. Most VORs with Comm capability only send their ID and the ones with HIWAS recordings don't have any Comm capabilities. Which VOR was it?

There is a common audio link there that could be injecting noise -- the land line or microwave link carrying the audio to the VOR transmitter site.

Wouldn't have been a perfect test, but did you try flipping over to Comm 1 for transmit from your end? Maybe the SL30 is out of whack and throwing spurs, but if you heard problems on the Nav receive on the top radio also, sounds like a ground problem with the audio path feeding the VOR transmitter. Ever hear any static on it when you weren't talking to him, like over the Ident (mixed with it) or wiping out the ident completely (audio problem at the transmitter site).

These things often linger if they're ground based audio problems because it takes multiple aircraft reports of problems or the FSS folks reporting it multiple times before anyone goes and checks it out on-site, and since it can be a problem in the aircraft, the first report often gets stashed until more come in.

If you were hearing the HIWAS loop recording fine prior to calling FSS and telling them you were listening on the VOR, it's probably in the FSS to VOR audio path.

Heck... It's just as likely the briefer's headset cord was trashed or their PTT switch was noisy/not working right, as anything, from the description. Lots of places that audio path can fail, have to work from one end to the other to find it.

(Says the call center teleconferencing telecom guy, who got hundreds of tickets of "noise on the conference bridge" over the years, only to find someone with a bad headset cable making noise who wasn't muted, who when muted, all the folks complaining said the noise "on the bridge" went away. Hehehehe.)
 
The VOR is the Hot Springs, HOT, one.

There is a lot of static over the NAV freq even when trying to just pick out the ID or listen to the HIWAS. So the ground issue at the VOR would make logical sense. The HIWAS was cutting in and out during his Tx events. So the VOR audio system might just be crap. The rumor is that the VOR is on the chopping block. So I doubt that they will fix it. I've heard that it might not get fixed on the next MX outage.

I'll try again when I fly with him in a week or so. I'm starting to think it's a VOR issue on top of a radio issue on our end.
 
(Says the call center teleconferencing telecom guy, who got hundreds of tickets of "noise on the conference bridge" over the years, only to find someone with a bad headset cable making noise who wasn't muted, who when muted, all the folks complaining said the noise "on the bridge" went away. Hehehehe.)

My ex-girlfriends father once took months to track down a static issue on a C-130. The bird kept coming back in with the crew writing up that the intercom system was unusable. He'd walk out, turn on the system, notice it worked fine and sign the plane back into service. Eventually he got fed up and went flying with the crew to see what they were doing to f up the system. It turned out that after about 15 minutes the intercom was completely overloaded by static. After a week crawling around in the plane he found a broken grounding wire that connected the static wicks to the aircraft ground. The plane would slowly build up a static charge until it would overwhelm the radios.
 
I bet that Social Hill RCO works better than the 122.1 on the VOR... ;)

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Cool to see the frequency and the HIWAS on the same VOR though. We rarely see that out here.
 
I bet that Social Hill RCO

Sure when it's working.... Haha I still wonder sometimes why they installed that RCO a few years ago. It was NOTAM'd INOP for about two years.

It's bad when FSS refers to the NOTAM as, "By the way, the RCO is still out".... "Uh thanks I'll try the VOR". They did the same thing during the GPS 24 sat outage.

I was mainly showing the student how to do it over the VOR, if ever need to in the future.
 
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Sure when it's working.... Haha I still wonder sometimes why they installed that RCO a few years ago. It was NOTAM'd INOP for about two years.

It's bad when FSS refers to the NOTAM as, "By the way, the RCO is still out".... "Uh thanks I'll try the VOR". They did the same thing during the GPS 24 sat outage.

I was mainly showing the student how to do it over the VOR, if ever need to in the future.
Heh. Oh well.

FAA Tech Ops is so hard up for staff they're posting ads on Facebook. No idea what GS level that starts at, but can't be too awful, for a young person starting out.

Nobody in the ad video looked like they were hard up for food, shall we say. Haha.
 
Heh. Oh well.

FAA Tech Ops is so hard up for staff they're posting ads on Facebook. No idea what GS level that starts at, but can't be too awful, for a young person starting out.

Nobody in the ad video looked like they were hard up for food, shall we say. Haha.

The girl that fixes our AWSS station is up there in oddness. I thought TV and radio techs were strange but some of these Tech Ops guys are strange birds.
 
I only know a couple. Both work on radar.

One started out doing it for "undisclosed organizations" in Laos, and went to work doing it for DoD doing it more "legitimately" I guess you'd say, for military bases the world over, then FAA later on, and then left FAA for better pay and better hours doing other RF engineering work inside FedGov).

The other was a controller who lost a Medical but hasn't ever had a problem from it, and appears to do fine climbing around on scaffolding and ladders and what not.

They're both pretty opinionated but not all that odd.

Box of chocolates I suppose.
 
My ex-girlfriends father once took months to track down a static issue on a C-130. The bird kept coming back in with the crew writing up that the intercom system was unusable. He'd walk out, turn on the system, notice it worked fine and sign the plane back into service. Eventually he got fed up and went flying with the crew to see what they were doing to f up the system. It turned out that after about 15 minutes the intercom was completely overloaded by static. After a week crawling around in the plane he found a broken grounding wire that connected the static wicks to the aircraft ground. The plane would slowly build up a static charge until it would overwhelm the radios.

Weird unexplainable/transient electrical issues seem like they're always bad grounds. I don't know JACK about electricity other than it is invisible and can't wait to kill me, but that's always what I assume whenever there's weirdness involving an electrical device.
 
I showed my IR student yesterday how to file PRIEPs over a VOR/XXX.XXR system. However, I had a horrible time as when ever I keyed the COM2, the NAV static would increase to an unbearable level. This led to FSS having a hard time understanding me and I having a hard time understanding him. I was able to yell enough to get the PRIEP across but quickly lost FSS in the HIWAS static. Mind you I was only roughly 20 miles away from the VOR. The COM2 works perfectly fine when the NAV audio is deselected.

I'm wondering if there is an RF bleed to the NAV radio or if it's the intercom panel. Anyone have a good troubleshooting technique for the next time I'm with the guy.

I've seen bad squawks descriptions and maintenance still fixed it but there is basically nothing useful here. We can't guess the architecture of the radio system and come up with meaningful conversation.

PMA Audio Panel
COM1/NAV1: 430
COM2/NAV2: SL30

Helps a little but we still don't know which VOR receiver you were using. Were both com radios selected?

Nav/coms should be more immune to its own emissions than mixing them up.
 
Nav/coms should be more immune to its own emissions than mixing them up.

Do the math. 760 channels on the com. 200 channels on the nav. 152,000 possible combinations. At one test every ten seconds, 25k seconds to test all of the possibilities, or 422 hours, or a little over 10 weeks of full time work to test them all. Ain't gonna happen.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and negotiating the movie rights.

Jim
 
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