[NA] Three-Way Switch Wiring with Dimmer

wanttaja

wanttaja

Final Approach
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
5,667
Location
"War-Torn" Portland
Display Name
Ron Wanttaja
Home Airfield
Twin Oaks Airpark
All right, been racking my brains on this one and running Google far into the night.

Bought a new house last summer. It was a "show home" when it was built in the '80s, and has a lot of good (and bad) features.

One of the bad features is that they went hog wild on dimmers for the lights. They help sometimes, but not on every...darn....light.

What's worse is all the switches and outlets are ivory in color, which, is, according to CINCHouse, is FAR out of date.

Gradually getting all the switches transitioned to white. Have one weird problem.

In three areas, there's a three-way switch with one of the switches being a dimmer and the other being a conventional switch. No problem...I'll just replace them with two three-way switches. Wiring is pretty standard.
1767860396957.png
First step was to replace the remote (non-dimmer) switch. Pull the cover, release the switch itself, and...

...it's an ordinary SPST (Single-Pole Single Throw) switch. Not a three-way switch. Just two wires going to it, not the three that the above diagram shows. No traveler #1, #2, and the Common. Just two wires.

How in the world can I replace the dimmer with a three-way switch when the travelers aren't there?

For those keeping score, the dimmer is A Prescolite 10-1896-01A. I've been unable to find any documentation on them.

Having a dimmer switch on a three-way setup is kind of dumb. If someone turns the dimmer down, you can't use the far switch to turn on the light because it's already set to "dim."

So...any good ideas on how to convert this to a conventional three-way? I understand there are wifi switches for this, but since this was from the '80s I doubt that it's the way it works....

Ron Wanttaja
 
California 3-way?
 
wanttaja said:
All right, been racking my brains on this one and running Google far into the night.

Bought a new house last summer. It was a "show home" when it was built in the '80s, and has a lot of good (and bad) features.

One of the bad features is that they went hog wild on dimmers for the lights. They help sometimes, but not on every...darn....light.

What's worse is all the switches and outlets are ivory in color, which, is, according to CINCHouse, is FAR out of date.

Gradually getting all the switches transitioned to white. Have one weird problem.

In three areas, there's a three-way switch with one of the switches being a dimmer and the other being a conventional switch. No problem...I'll just replace them with two three-way switches. Wiring is pretty standard.
View attachment 148827
First step was to replace the remote (non-dimmer) switch. Pull the cover, release the switch itself, and...

...it's an ordinary SPST (Single-Pole Single Throw) switch. Not a three-way switch. Just two wires going to it, not the three that the above diagram shows. No traveler #1, #2, and the Common. Just two wires.

How in the world can I replace the dimmer with a three-way switch when the travelers aren't there?

For those keeping score, the dimmer is A Prescolite 10-1896-01A. I've been unable to find any documentation on them.

Having a dimmer switch on a three-way setup is kind of dumb. If someone turns the dimmer down, you can't use the far switch to turn on the light because it's already set to "dim."

So...any good ideas on how to convert this to a conventional three-way? I understand there are wifi switches for this, but since this was from the '80s I doubt that it's the way it works....

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
What wires do you have at the dimmer?
 
Lindberg said:
What wires do you have at the dimmer?
Click to expand...
Haven't pulled it yet. Hope to have a replacement on hand so I don't have to dig things out more than once.

House is old enough that most of the switches don't have a separate ground wire.

Ron Wanttaja
 
A very non standard product, no longer produced. Seems to be a remote contact that sends an on off signal to internal logic of dimmer.

Best solution seems to be block or glue the slider in the full on position, and it will function as a 3 way.

Just hope that the main switch never goes bad, you will have a difficult wiring problem.

Friend had a 1930's 2 story brick house, no 3rd wires. He bought some appliances that required the third wire to work, and I pulled in the green wire for all of his first floor circuits. Long, difficult job, with 2 fish wires needed for some places. Disposal, dishwasher, microwave oven, and toaster oven.
 
Last edited:
wanttaja said:
Haven't pulled it yet. Hope to have a replacement on hand so I don't have to dig things out more than once.
Click to expand...
You need to know what you have to know how to replace it. Open that box up and post some pictures. If you can figure out the wiring, you may just be able to replace the dimmer with a regular 2-way switch.
 
Ron can not chance damaging that old dimmer. He will need a skilled professional electrician to add the new wire to make a legal and safe working circuit.

There is a good reason that the manufacturer quit making that device, so long ago that Google cannot find it or its wiring diagram. It was safe, or it would not have been approved, but not reliable.

George asked if it was a California 3 way, I suspect that I know how that is wired, and it is dangerous. My Dad explained that to me when I was only 10, and said it cost more for him to correct than the homeowner paid to have it done the first time. Having caught and corrected incorrect 3 way wiring in new construction, while the wiring was accessible, I know it would expensive after it is all concealed.
 
Last edited:
geezer said:
Ron can not chance damaging that old dimmer. He will need a skilled professional electrician to add the new wire to make a legal and safe working circuit.
Click to expand...
What I feared, and, I think, what I expected. Thanks.

We found a good electric contractor when we moved in here, I'll probably give them a call. Or I'll get the paint sprayer out and paint the old dimmer to match. :)

Ron Wanttaja
 
Dimmers have always had various techniques for dealing with three-way situations. Older ones often would have the on-off part common in a three way but then put the dimmer on the common side. Newer ones just grab one of the traveller wires to provide some communication between a "master" and "slave."
 
Found some videos on "California Three-Way," "Chicago Three-Way," and "Dead End Three-Way." None of them seem to describe what I have; the "remote" switch has just two wires going to it.

Ron Wanttaja
 
geezer said:
Ron can not chance damaging that old dimmer. He will need a skilled professional electrician to add the new wire to make a legal and safe working circuit.
Click to expand...
He's going to replace it, so damaging it shouldn't be a concern. But if it's so fragile that taking a picture will damage it, I'd say it's a hazard that needs to be addressed.
 
wanttaja said:
Having a dimmer switch on a three-way setup is kind of dumb. If someone turns the dimmer down, you can't use the far switch to turn on the light because it's already set to "dim."
Click to expand...
That likely violates code if it's used over stairs or in a hallway.

Nothing wrong with dimmers, in those 3-way situations, as long as you can adjust the brightness from all locations, which you can, with the newer electronic dimmers.

The Lutron Caseta, already recommended, is an easy solution. I'd recommend the Claro version as it has a decroa-style rocker switch which will be easier to match throughout the case. The original Caseta switches have push buttons.

In your case, you put the Claro switch, or dimmer, at the primary location then a Pico remote at the remote location(s). The Pico does not connect to any wires, you'd just cap them off at the remote location. The Pico's talk to the master via a propriety RF link and, in my experience, is 100% reliable. The Pico has an internal battery good for ten years, or more. There is a mounting bracket (less than $10) that lets you mount the Pico in a wall box (or on a wall without the box) so that it looks identical to a wall switch. If it's setup as a dimmer, you stop "on" once on the Pico to turn on to the dim setting (slider on the master) and double-tap to go full bright.

You pair the Pico to the switch by holding the OFF button on the switch for 6 seconds then doing the same on the Pico. Takes 30 seconds to do. You can also install them anywhere. The mounting bracket can be attached to the wall with drywall anchors then a switchplate connects to the bracket. Looks like any other wall switch.

This kit includes the master Claro switch, Pico, faceplate, and Pico mounting bracket.


They are stocked in the Big Box stores, too. Look for the Lutron produce in the blue packaging.

They also support automation and phone control with the addition of their hub. I have my whole house on their system.
 
Lindberg said:
He's going to replace it, so damaging it shouldn't be a concern. But if it's so fragile that taking a picture will damage it, I'd say it's a hazard that needs to be addressed.
Click to expand...
Damaging it is a concern if the unit itself is so obsolete that replacing it requires running a set of travelers to the second switch.
Larry in TN said:
That likely violates code if it's used over stairs or in a hallway.
Click to expand...
Uhhhhh...both, actually, for one of the three installations.

Plus the dimmer switch itself pre-dates LED lighting, and a previous owner installed LED lights in the fixtures. Which means if the dimmer gets turned up too high, the lights flicker like someone's trying to beam in.

I'll look into the switches you mention.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I'll look into the switches you mention.
Click to expand...
The manufacturer's site for the line is https://www.casetawireless.com

Lots of YouTube videos on it. Search for "caseta".

If you like it, and decide to go bigger, they also have automated blinds and shades.

I've attached pictures of the Picos on a pedestal (i.e. Dr. No's control panel) and the instantiation of a Pico in a 3-way situation like yours. Just add the cover plate to finish the install. Also, on the pedestal pic, the Pico on the right is a scene Pico which controls multiple lighting circuits in three scenes and off.

Ped 3.jpg

Pico.jpg

Pico Installed.jpg
 
Caseta and Pico would be a perfect replacement. Avoids the missing wire problem.

Those seem to be the more modern and simple replacement for Lutron Homeworks, popular in high end homes for over 20 years.
I have visited in 3 homes with Homeworks, an amazing system.
 
geezer said:
A very non standard product, no longer produced. Seems to be a remote contact that sends an on off signal to internal logic of dimmer.

Best solution seems to be block or glue the slider in the full on position, and it will function as a 3 way.

Just hope that the main switch never goes bad, you will have a difficult wiring problem.

Friend had a 1930's 2 story brick house, no 3rd wires. He bought some appliances that required the third wire to work, and I pulled in the green wire for all of his first floor circuits. Long, difficult job, with 2 fish wires needed for some places. Disposal, dishwasher, microwave oven, and toaster oven.
Click to expand...
When my folks moved to the city, mother got a microwave. The instructions said to plug to a 3 prong grounded out let and do not use a grounding adapter from 3 to 2.
so my dad replaced the outlet to a new 3 prong grounding plug.
Mother was happy but she didn’t know it was not any better then the old two prong plug.
 
An update. Had an electrician come by today, and HE didn't know how it was working, either. Youngish guy, though. Agreed it was probably not code-compliant for new construction, and to fix it they'd probably need to string new traveler wires between the two boxes.

Looked into the wireless remotes, but they require the switch box have neutral wires. My older house just has two wires and a ground in the boxes....

So...looks like I'm just going to have to live with it.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Looked into the wireless remotes, but they require the switch box have neutral wires. My older house just has two wires and a ground in the boxes....
Click to expand...
The Lutron Caseta dimmers do not require a nuetral, only the (non-dimming) switches (because they can't send the very small current they use through the load). Pair with a Pico for the 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th) switch location.

This kit has the dimmer, pico, mount for the pico, and one screwless wall plate. It may also be in stock at your local Lowes or Home Depot.

 
Larry in TN said:
The Lutron Caseta dimmers do not require a nuetral, only the (non-dimming) switches (because they can't send the very small current they use through the load).
Click to expand...
Strange, I thought I'd read they did require a neutral. Will give them a try.

Ron Wanttaja
 
there's two ways to wire up a three way switch circuit, depending on where the switches are and there the lights are in the circuit.
Lemme see if I can find my home wiring book for some diagrams... its easy to swap out switches. The box the new switch came in probably has the diagrams on it, or printed on the inside of the box.

Before buying the book, I learned about three way switches by swapping out a broken switch and flipping the breaker back on. The breaker immediately flipped itself back off... huh... :lol:
 
An update, in case anyone in the future is trying to research these.

To recap, I've got three circuits in my house that are set up as three-way switches, but the "remote" switch is an ordinary SPST switch, with only two wires connecting to it rather than the usual three. The other end is a dimmer switch, model EN600-3P Enhance 3-Way Touch switch. Also show a model number of 10-1625-01A.

(Note that I found one of these switches on Ebay...the wrong color (looking for white), but it DID come with installation instructions. If I was *really* concerned, I'd spend the 15 bucks).

Anyway, this is how the EN600-3P switch is wired to the house:
1770498955960.png

Note that the installation swaps the color code...the black (nominally the hot line) from the house is connected to the red wire, while the white one is connected to the black on the dimmer.

The other end, with the single-pole switch, was also interesting....
1770499016430.png
Yes, your eyes aren't deceiving you, boys and girls...the white and the black lines from the house, normally the neutral and the hot wires...are twisted together.

Here's a photo. The orange wire nuts are on the wires I disconnected from the SPST switch.
1770499233368.png
Huh.

The guess here is that the original electrician used a strip of Romex dedicated to the connecting of the dimmer to the remote switch, which would mean the standard wiring color code probably doesn't apply.

At this point, just a curiosity. Eliminating the remote switch for the setup above (deck lights), and have bought a Lutron Caseta pack for one of the other ones (to try out before re-wiring both).

Ron Wanttaja
 
On occasion I've seen wiring like that, which didn't follow the color code, but there would usually be a piece of colored electrical tape wrapped around the end of the wire to indicate what it really is. For example, in your case, if both those wires are being used for neutral, there would be a piece of white electrical tape wrapped around the black wire.

Don't trust; verify.
 
Last edited:
I didn't realize that your circuits were using a type of smart switch. Don't know why the electrician would wire the house with non-standard wiring that would prevent you from going back to a conventional non-smart circuits.
 
Larry in TN said:
I didn't realize that your circuits were using a type of smart switch. Don't know why the electrician would wire the house with non-standard wiring that would prevent you from going back to a conventional non-smart circuits.
Click to expand...
This house was built as one of a batch of show homes that were intended to knock the socks off visitors with their "modern" design features (Street of Dreams program). So it's got a sunken living room, tray ceilings, various skylights (some with wood beams crossing), a circular driveway, a multilayer atrium with a fire pit and outdoor kitchen, Indirect lighting in the kitchen (using a bunch of fluorescent tubes) and dimmer switches on nearly every other gods-damned set of lights. Most of the lights affected are overhead can lights, which further reduces the utility of dimmer switches. What's worst, some idiot designer thought putting a dimmer switch for LIGHTS ABOVE A STAIRWAY was a fantastic idea as well.

So I'm not surprised if some electrician played fast and loose with some wiring, probably to meet some idiotic deadline from the developer. Had a professional electrician come in two weeks ago, HE couldn't figure out what was done, either. Only option was to pay them to route traveler wires between the boxes ($$$$) or replace with smart switches. Doing a mix; the one I did today, I just eliminated the remote switch (in a very low-used area) and am going to try the smart switches on the others.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I found this site when looking for info on 4-way switches (i lent out my home wiring book a while back, forgot who i gave it to)

4-way Switch Wiring Diagrams - Do-it-yourself-help.com

Clear, easy-to-read 4-way switch wiring diagrams for household light circuits with wiring instructions.
www.do-it-yourself-help.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top