[NA] Arrogant Worms, "A Car Full of Pain"

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
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We have had a few discussions about vehicles recently, including the trials and troubles of maintenance, discussions of which are PoS's and which aren't, and more.

I thought I would share this song with those who are suffering through the PoS stages of car ownership...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGKIPpZ3YJc&t=19m50s
 
Didn't listen to the video but the "Car Full of Pain" hit a chord. Great car but the nearest service department is a 150 mile round trip and the service dept. is a POS. We are selling it and going back to something that can be serviced more locally. Really a disappointment (BMW 328i)
 
Didn't listen to the video but the "Car Full of Pain" hit a chord. Great car but the nearest service department is a 150 mile round trip and the service dept. is a POS. We are selling it and going back to something that can be serviced more locally. Really a disappointment (BMW 328i)

I love BMWs, but having owned two, I would never consider relying on one as transport if I lived away from a very reliable service source.
 
We just flew to Houston to buy a used Honda Fit -- and Becca drove home in a used Toyota Matrix instead. (Long story of scumbag seller omitted, for time's sake.)

The thing is like a clown car -- tiny on the outside, enormous on the inside, with all sorts of quirky/neat things. A 110 volt outlet in the dashboard is probably the quirkiest/coolest -- and Bec has found a dozen uses for it.

I expect it to last forever -- and now she can stop beating my Lexus to death. :D

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
I love BMWs, but having owned two, I would never consider relying on one as transport if I lived away from a very reliable service source.

A German collegue back in the 80s called them "BM TroubleUs". He drove a Subaru. And I had trouble with my 1974 Subaru (head gaskets every 50,000 miles).
 
I had 4, the last one was a disaster. Dealer friend in Wichita later admitted that both design and QC crumpled during the 90's and they couldn't give them away. The 5-year warranty program wasn't so much a marketing strategy as a necessity in order to survive. At one time the used values plummeted when the factory warranty expired, dunno if that has improved but they lost me as a customer along the way.
A German collegue back in the 80s called them "BM TroubleUs". He drove a Subaru. And I had trouble with my 1974 Subaru (head gaskets every 50,000 miles).
 
Matrix is a good, and good-sized vehicle. It was also sold as a Pontiac.

It will probably come close to same mileage as a Fit, and will deliver a great deal better utility; you can fit a LOT more Shiner Bock in it.
 
The Mercedes dealer here let the BMW line go a few years back...not sure why but nevertheless...

The service advisors tell me that BMW means
Bring
Money
Witcha
 
We just flew to Houston to buy a used Honda Fit -- and Becca drove home in a used Toyota Matrix instead. (Long story of scumbag seller omitted, for time's sake.)

The thing is like a clown car -- tiny on the outside, enormous on the inside, with all sorts of quirky/neat things. A 110 volt outlet in the dashboard is probably the quirkiest/coolest -- and Bec has found a dozen uses for it.

I expect it to last forever -- and now she can stop beating my Lexus to death. :D

Sent from my Nexus 7

Hard to go too terribly wrong with a Japanese car (or newer Ford) for reliability, although I don't think I'd ever encourage anyone to drive a Fit. One decent hit by a full size pickup or SUV and you'd likely be picking up the contents (including human occupants) in pieces. You probably stand a slightly better chance of survival in the Matrix.

In owning Audis, Jeeps, Hondas, Subarus, and now Nissans, I haven't had one that hasn't needed something beyond normal maintenance before 100k miles, but the Audi was by far the worst. Loved the ride and handling, but the car loved the shop more than me. There were only a limited number of shops, parts were hard to come by other than from a dealer, and dealer maintenance was insanely expensive. Despite being a "luxury" brand for VW, none of my local dealers knew how to provide luxury service. I get much, much better service from my local Nissan dealer, and need that service a whole lot less.


JKG
 
Well, I drive vehicles that firmly fit in the "POS" department. I do my own repairs. I'm in the middle of a VW timing belt right now.

I don't find frequent troubles, and I don't find big problems, as a rule, less than 200K. I do find smaller problems, and of course the usual maintenance.

I'm not at all a believer in brands. As I won't pay five figures for a vehicle, previous owner stupidity is very often a much bigger factor. Like an oil pan full of sludge or green coolant in a VW (that means changing all the hoses, and some are a real PITA).
 
Matrix is a good, and good-sized vehicle. It was also sold as a Pontiac.

It will probably come close to same mileage as a Fit, and will deliver a great deal better utility; you can fit a LOT more Shiner Bock in it.

If it means anything, Jay, we never get calls for the drive trains on the Vibe/Matrix. Just the body panels for the collision repair shops.
 
The Mercedes dealer here let the BMW line go a few years back...not sure why but nevertheless...

The service advisors tell me that BMW means
Bring
Money
Witcha

With the new 500 gaining some popularity, I heard FIAT means "Fix It Again, Tony"
 
With the new 500 gaining some popularity, I heard FIAT means "Fix It Again, Tony"

It has meant that for decades. :D My dad told me that definition based on his brother's experience with one in the late 1940s.

My momma had a 124 Spider. What fun it was. But it was absoute garbage. Ate a valve. Electrical system relied on moon phases and pixie dust to operate - must have, because the wires and connectors and fuse box surely were not designed with the simple passage of electrical current in mind!
 
I've posted enough about our VW fiasco car. It's still here and still running on transmission number three. Karen decided she's cool with it until it drops dead again. Repairs are equal to a beater used car cost, and it's the devil we know vs. the one we don't.

The only stuff that seems to run forever is anything built on a full sized pickup truck frame. The engine compartment is also big enough and the systems simple enough, to work on it yourself.
 
Not quite Nate. When a local shop called recently for a 3valve 5.4L for a 2007 F150, I asked them to verify what I had heard about installing it. Book time time for the R&R is about 30-35 hrs and requires lifting the cab off of the frame.

But I also remember my first truck. A 1951 F1 that had a flathead straight six. That was the engine bay you could stand in with the motor still mounted.
 
The only stuff that seems to run forever is anything built on a full sized pickup truck frame. The engine compartment is also big enough and the systems simple enough, to work on it yourself.

Not so much anymore. Engines are increasing in complexity due to CAFE standards and the desire to get more power out of the smaller engines required for better fuel economy.

VW seems to have a fairly poor parts quality record, which is a shame, as they otherwise build pretty solid cars.


JKG
 
We just flew to Houston to buy a used Honda Fit -- and Becca drove home in a used Toyota Matrix instead. (Long story of scumbag seller omitted, for time's sake.)

The thing is like a clown car -- tiny on the outside, enormous on the inside, with all sorts of quirky/neat things. A 110 volt outlet in the dashboard is probably the quirkiest/coolest -- and Bec has found a dozen uses for it.

I expect it to last forever -- and now she can stop beating my Lexus to death. :D

Sent from my Nexus 7

My 2004 AWD Vibe is pushing 96,000 miles. (Pontiac Vibe is a Matrix with a slightly different body on it). The only problem I've had is the fresh air/recirc door actuator stripped some gear teeth. According to the GenVibe forum, its a common problem and if you have any mechanical aptitude, easy to fix.

You'd be surprised at what I've hauled in the back of that car. :D And yes, that 110 outlet is the handiest thing. I keep a short extension cord in the center console for plugs that won't quite fit on the dash.

And we have half of a Honda Fit engine.....in a motorcycle. :lol:
 
Not so much anymore. Engines are increasing in complexity due to CAFE standards and the desire to get more power out of the smaller engines required for better fuel economy.

VW seems to have a fairly poor parts quality record, which is a shame, as they otherwise build pretty solid cars.


JKG

I had a '73 F100, 240 cube six. I could have just about put a bed under the hood, it was very easy to work on. If I had time to prepare, I bet a good hand and I could have performed an engine swap on that truck in a few hours. No A/C, no power steering.

Let's see:

Fuel line
Exhaust pipe
Upper/Lower radiator hoses
Heater Hoses
Alternator harness
Distributor harness
Water temp sender wire
Oil Pressure sender wire
Throttle linkage (it was a pushrod, snap on)

Motor mount bolts (2)
Tranny bellhousing bolts
Lift on out.
Reverse.

Ba Da Bing.
 
My momma had a 124 Spider. What fun it was. But it was absoute garbage. Ate a valve. Electrical system relied on moon phases and pixie dust to operate - must have, because the wires and connectors and fuse box surely were not designed with the simple passage of electrical current in mind!


I looked at a 124 in 1975 or so. I liked the car, but then began hearing all the well known maintenance nightmares of all Fiats. I passed, and bought a BMW 2002 instead. Great car, but after a certain amount of miles that became a maintenance hog too, and parts were expensive. I guess BMW's are still maintenance hogs from what I hear, so I haven't gone back there. The do drive nicely, though.
 
Our 2008 BMW 328i is headed back to the dealer tomorrow for the 9th time over a passenger restraint system wiring problem that started with a recall. The driving miles on our car for this problem exceed a round trip from Little Rock to Denver - not counting the miles on their loaner cars and it still isn't fixed.

They were very responsive in changing out lifters over a design problem with this engine but failed to get the rocker arm cover gasket properly installed so that issue added another 300 pure service miles - half of which should have been unnecessary. They didn't notify us of the lifter problem. You have to complain about noisey lifters.
 
I had a '73 F100, 240 cube six. I could have just about put a bed under the hood, it was very easy to work on. If I had time to prepare, I bet a good hand and I could have performed an engine swap on that truck in a few hours. No A/C, no power steering.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but we are a long way from 1973, hence my comment. Working on engines from today's vehicles pretty much requires electronics due to the increasing complexity, and GDI and turbochargers are more common than they used to be. Engine compartments are tighter, even in full size trucks. It isn't as easy as it used to be.


JKG
 
Nevertheless, I work on all my own vehicles. One current one is a 1972 Chevy fullsize, and yes, there is a lot of room and not a whole lot of complexity in there (though I did add fancy-schmancy power steering). The latest is a 2000 Saturn SL2, with a DOHC (moderately complex).

There isn't that much to electronics. Basically, you need to understand resistive networks, batteries (that's the oxygen sensors), basic induction, and the concept of pulse width modulation. There are many, many books on these subjects in automotive applications, or a couple of classes at the local community college will take care of it.

The idea that electronic engine management is "more complex" than old stuff is simply not true. It does all the same stuff, slightly differently. Frankly, the most complex engine management I've seen was the last generation of carbureted engines. For instance, the Ford 2.8L Cologne V6's. It has mechanical, vacuum, thermal (bimetal), and electrical controls, all combined. The very next year, they morphed into the 2.9L with multiport fuel injection, and it was a lot simpler and more reliable.

What has grown in complexity is the scope of self-tests, and continuous monitoring. That's a simplification. In an OBD-II vehicle, I get several different indications of oxygen sensor problems, some of which can only be due to a fouled or consumed sensor (such as slow transition times). In OBD-I, I'd just get a lean code, which could be due to a lot of things (not the least of which is poor electrical grounding). In a carbureted vehicle, it would just run poorly with an incorrect mixture or a large change in altitude, and they aren't adjustible without tearing down the carburetor.
 
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Nevertheless, I work on all my own vehicles. One current one is a 1972 Chevy fullsize, and yes, there is a lot of room and not a whole lot of complexity in there (though I did add fancy-schmancy power steering). The latest is a 2000 Saturn SL2, with a DOHC (moderately complex).

There isn't that much to electronics. Basically, you need to understand resistive networks, batteries (that's the oxygen sensors), basic induction, and the concept of pulse width modulation. There are many, many books on these subjects in automotive applications, or a couple of classes at the local community college will take care of it.

The idea that electronic engine management is "more complex" than old stuff is simply not true. It does all the same stuff, slightly differently. Frankly, the most complex engine management I've seen was the last generation of carbureted engines. For instance, the Ford 2.8L Cologne V6's. It has mechanical, vacuum, thermal (bimetal), and electrical controls, all combined. The very next year, they morphed into the 2.9L with multiport fuel injection, and it was a lot simpler and more reliable.

What has grown in complexity is the scope of self-tests, and continuous monitoring. That's a simplification. In an OBD-II vehicle, I get several different indications of oxygen sensor problems, some of which can only be due to a fouled or consumed sensor (such as slow transition times). In OBD-I, I'd just get a lean code, which could be due to a lot of things (not the least of which is poor electrical grounding). In a carbureted vehicle, it would just run poorly with an incorrect mixture or a large change in altitude, and they aren't adjustible without tearing down the carburetor.

Modern engines and engine management is more complex than you appear to realize. I'm not saying that owners can't work on them, but the additional complexity means more interdependencies, and the computer controls mean that you may need more than a simple ODBII scanner. To properly diagnose and repair my Audi, for example, I had to buy a system that could communicate with the car using VW's proprietary protocol. Some modern engines, such as the Ford EcoBoost used in the F150, are both mechanically and electrically more complex. Add to that the fact that modern transmissions, HVAC, radios, lights, etc. are all computer controlled, and the factors that affect their operation are far more than simple mechanics. It is highly doubtful that "a couple class at the local community college" alone will get anyone the expertise required to properly diagnose and repair these more complex systems.

I work on all of my vehicles as well, and fully understand how difficult it is to track an unusual problem to a broken wire in a massive wiring harness. It isn't impossible, but you have to understand the systems and interdependencies, have the right tools (including computer diagnosis), and be willing to invest the time.


JKG
 
No, I understand how you sometimes need proprietary equipment. That's not about complexity. That's about interface. And if you really understand the systems, you can usually get around that.

I would argue that it's A LOT more difficult to diagnose earlier electronic systems with no self tests.

Have you ever tried the community college route? It wouldn't appear so. They are better equipped than you might expect, and do teach fundamentals of networking and basic electronics, down to the level of calculating fuel trim and how each of the sensors works.

This stuff isn't rocket science.

Broken wiring harnesses are found with voltmeters and test lights. If it's a digital circuit, a simple test tachometer can get you very far (an oscilloscope is better, but it's not absolutely required). If the frequencies aren't too high, test lights and analog voltmeters are quite helpful.

You don't need fancy break detectors until you get into GHz copper and fiber optics.
 
My 2004 AWD Vibe is pushing 96,000 miles. (Pontiac Vibe is a Matrix with a slightly different body on it). The only problem I've had is the fresh air/recirc door actuator stripped some gear teeth. According to the GenVibe forum, its a common problem and if you have any mechanical aptitude, easy to fix.

You'd be surprised at what I've hauled in the back of that car. :D And yes, that 110 outlet is the handiest thing. I keep a short extension cord in the center console for plugs that won't quite fit on the dash.

And we have half of a Honda Fit engine.....in a motorcycle. :lol:

Cool, good to hear. I specifically searched for (and found) a 2WD Matrix, for the improved gas mileage. I've got an AWD Subaru Outback, and that thing barely gets 23 MPG, not any better than my V8-powered F-150.

So far, we love this car. It is PERFECT for Becca, and I find myself driving it when its available, just cuz it's fun.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
Cool, good to hear. I specifically searched for (and found) a 2WD Matrix, for the improved gas mileage.

I wish I could get away with a 2WD. However, once the snow starts falling, you either have AWD/4WD, and really good snow tires, or you're stuck until spring. Its steeper than it looks. We've had to chain up a couple of times....

driveway.jpg
 
I wish I could get away with a 2WD. However, once the snow starts falling, you either have AWD/4WD, and really good snow tires, or you're stuck until spring. Its steeper than it looks. We've had to chain up a couple of times....

driveway.jpg

I felt that pain for half a century, in Wisconsin and Iowa -- I feel for ya. My AWD Outback was great in the snow.

Sent from my Nexus 7
 
... I've got an AWD Subaru Outback, and that thing barely gets 23 MPG, not any better than my V8-powered F-150....
Oh I see the perfect bumper sticker for driving around Boulder ....

"My CUMMINS gets better fuel economy that your Stuparoo ... and it's GREENER, too!"
 
Oh I see the perfect bumper sticker for driving around Boulder ....

"My CUMMINS gets better fuel economy that your Stuparoo ... and it's GREENER, too!"


Now that's just mean Greg. Just because it's true is irrelevant. Think of the dreadlocks and hemp wearing Boulderites feelings!



:D
 
Cool, good to hear. I specifically searched for (and found) a 2WD Matrix, for the improved gas mileage. I've got an AWD Subaru Outback, and that thing barely gets 23 MPG, not any better than my V8-powered F-150.

If you can't break 23 mpg in a Subaru Outback, something is wrong. We had a 2.5L Outback wagon for years, and were just under 30mpg. If you do all stop-and-go, I could see maybe dropping to 23mpg, but a V-8 F-150 isn't going to hit that number under the same conditions.


JKG
 
No, I understand how you sometimes need proprietary equipment. That's not about complexity. That's about interface. And if you really understand the systems, you can usually get around that.

I would argue that it's A LOT more difficult to diagnose earlier electronic systems with no self tests.

Have you ever tried the community college route? It wouldn't appear so. They are better equipped than you might expect, and do teach fundamentals of networking and basic electronics, down to the level of calculating fuel trim and how each of the sensors works.

This stuff isn't rocket science.

Broken wiring harnesses are found with voltmeters and test lights. If it's a digital circuit, a simple test tachometer can get you very far (an oscilloscope is better, but it's not absolutely required). If the frequencies aren't too high, test lights and analog voltmeters are quite helpful.

You don't need fancy break detectors until you get into GHz copper and fiber optics.

I never said that working on automobiles was "rocket science," nor did I say or suggest that it was outside the capability of anyone. What I did state was the obvious fact that automobile engines and systems have become more complex (and more expensive) over the years. There is barely anything that moves on a vehicle that does not have a sensor attached to it, which is controlled by some type of ECU that effectively discourages operation of the vehicle if something is amiss. How many times did transmissions need "reflashed" in the 1970s? How many times did a failed sensor leave you stranded? How much knowledge was really proprietary? The answers are pretty much all "none." That is not the case today.

Good luck troubleshooting the wiring harnesses on any of my modern vehicles with a volt meter. I'm sure that you can do it, but it would likely take you days. That's why "rip and replace" is more commonplace today. If I have to disassemble half the engine bay to get to something, and trace back hundreds of wires in giant harnesses, it's going to take a while, and I'm probably going to break something else along the way. Sensors are a fairly easy check once you get to them. ECUs and other systems can be read with the right tools (i.e. more than an ODBII reader), but you still need experience to know how to interpret the results to troubleshoot the problem. College (of any type) may impart knowledge, but provide meaningful experience it does not. Trial and error doesn't work quite as well as it once did.


JKG
 
Now that's just mean Greg. Just because it's true is irrelevant. Think of the dreadlocks and hemp wearing Boulderites feelings!
:D

and if I burn WVO, they're all following me around sniffing for french fries!
 
I drive a 2000 Kia Sportage that I bought for $1,850.00 a couple of years ago. It's one of the best cars I've ever owned.

I do most of my own work on it, but I did pay to have a brake job and a fuel tank replacement done, mainly because my friend is a car mechanic and we barter services back and forth. So anything that's easier to do in a shop, he does.

-Rich
 
Now that's just mean Greg. Just because it's true is irrelevant. Think of the dreadlocks and hemp wearing Boulderites feelings!

The vehicle genus known as Subaru in the People's Republic of Boulder, is just there to carry around the $3000 mountain bike in the summer and the $1000 snowboard in the winter.

The ones that drive the genus known as Prius, swap out the low rolling friction tires before the first snowstorm, and barely get better mileage than the Subaru tamers for the entire winter when there's seven days of truly snow packed roads.

;)

Neither driver would never get rid of it and walk, to live up to their anti-big-oil bumper sticker plasters on the back of it. Most of them commute to Interlocken, up the Diagonal Highway out of Boulder, or even to Denver for work.

:)
 
I never said that working on automobiles was "rocket science," nor did I say or suggest that it was outside the capability of anyone. What I did state was the obvious fact that automobile engines and systems have become more complex (and more expensive) over the years. There is barely anything that moves on a vehicle that does not have a sensor attached to it, which is controlled by some type of ECU that effectively discourages operation of the vehicle if something is amiss. How many times did transmissions need "reflashed" in the 1970s? How many times did a failed sensor leave you stranded? How much knowledge was really proprietary? The answers are pretty much all "none." That is not the case today.

Good luck troubleshooting the wiring harnesses on any of my modern vehicles with a volt meter. I'm sure that you can do it, but it would likely take you days. That's why "rip and replace" is more commonplace today. If I have to disassemble half the engine bay to get to something, and trace back hundreds of wires in giant harnesses, it's going to take a while, and I'm probably going to break something else along the way. Sensors are a fairly easy check once you get to them. ECUs and other systems can be read with the right tools (i.e. more than an ODBII reader), but you still need experience to know how to interpret the results to troubleshoot the problem. College (of any type) may impart knowledge, but provide meaningful experience it does not. Trial and error doesn't work quite as well as it once did.


JKG

I have yet to see any vehicle that gets disabled because the power window switch conks out. Or even one disabled because of a misfire or the usual -40 deg coolant temperature fault. They just go into "limp mode" and retard the timing and fire off the MIL.

The 1970s equivalent of "reflashing" a transmission was changing out the valve body, and it happened all the time. The valve body in a TH350 transmission has all the same logic that the later electronic GM transmissions had. Just, they didn't pop an MIL when something went wrong. You would get a hard-shift complaint, or in the worst case, nothing until it started slipping and needed a rebuild.

Control systems aren't really doing anything different. They are just using a different mechanism to get it done.

Now, OBD-II isn't everything. It's a nonstandard standard, and you need to interpret "proprietary" codes and PIDs to get anywhere. Usually, some mechanical followup is required. But that's not that hard, and clues from the diagnostic system can be invaluable. Modern vehicles have a lot more test points than the older ones, and it's a huge timesaver.
 
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