My plan for career change

[Richard]

(I think it is premature to post this because I dislike saying what I will do. I'd much rather say what I am doing. I'm still in the formative stage of my plan, therefore this post is premature. But in order to aid me in determining the type plane and what kind of panel I feel I need to spill it, as it were.)

Previously I had sought advice on avenues for transitioning into a flying career, aka, being paid to fly. After much research and careful consideration my very supportive & loving wife and I have decided I will spend up to 13 months making personal flights to build my time. Included in this time period will be my attainment of my CFII and other dual instruction flights as they become necessary. This will become my full time occupation, hence I will quit my current business to concentrate solely and completely on this aviation plan.

The time period will commence within one or two months after I finish up some things currently in progress. The immediate goal is a pilot position in high performance multi eingine aircraft. The 3 year goal is Part 135 capt in mutliengine turbine or jet.

I've sold the Stinson so I can direct my attention towards an IFR capable single engine time builder. I have two friends who both own light twins and they have agreed I will be able to fly their aircraft for direct operating expenses only. I will provide my own ins and after ins required checkout I will be able to make solo flights in their a/c.

My chief concern at this time is identifying the 'most correct' aircraft for my intended purpose. Minimum requirements of such aircraft are:

--IFR panel. One VOR/GS is unacceptable. I read the links provided by Bruce Cameron and while I agree with such minimalist views I think I require more because my goal is also to develop the competency with advanced instruments the 135 operators want to see.

--Less than 10 gph. This is a starting point. It makes fiscal sense to minimize costs during this time period. I'd like complex/HP but do not believe those features are required for my plan. Besides, going fast is contrary to building time. My friend's twins could fill in for the complex and HP.

--Minimal purchase price. Speaks for itself. However, I belong to the, "buy a cheap tool you buy it twice" school. I have no problem paying for value but I have to answer the question is it a need or a want. That's where y'all come in with your knowledge and wonderful advice.

--Ease of Mx. Again, fiscal sense, but I don't want significant down time and/or multiple or recurrent ADs. I also want to be A&P friendly.

--KI not required, RG not required.

So there you have it. I really need to hear what y'all have to say because you would be helping me to define my plan. Please do not disqualify yourself because you are uncertain you have anything of value to say, have minimal experience, or that you may think you would look foolish in saying.

One way or the other, I will remain on my time schedule. Please accept my invitation to come along.

 

[poadeleted3]

Well, how bout instead of a Super Mouse, you look instead at the Beech Sports if you like the comfiness of a Beech? Being as they were primarily intended to be trainers, there are a fair number around already IFR ready for about the same cost as a C-152, or just a little more.

They are cheap to buy, with a Lyc O-320 150 hp engine they are cheap to fly. They are roomy, comfortable and have four seats, though not a bunch of useful load (750 lbs seems to be a pretty common number when I've asked.) They aren't fast, bout the same as a 152, but you said speed isn't a primary concern. They carry up to 60 gal of fuel, so you can stay up pretty much as long as your bladder can take it for some of those longer trips. And you can get them ready for what you want to do, and get to flying, instead of waiting for your plane to come out of the shop.

There is also an awfully nice Cherokee 140 on sale on ASO, with a very nice Appollo avionics panel including GX-60 IFR cert gps/comm, SL-30 nav-comm, autopilot, 160 hp engine, engine monitors, cd player, etc. But they are asking a VERY premium price for a Cherokee 140 at $55K. Still, that's about what you'd spend on that Super Mouse by the time you got the panel upgraded, and it's ready to fly now.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Instead of spending the money to buy the plane spend the money on one of the professional pilot schools.

Len

 

[poadeleted3]

Instead of spending the money to buy the plane spend the money on one of the professional pilot schools.

Len

$40K for the school? That's what they ran a few years ago when I first started flying and was considering a loan to get where I wanted. Why not spend that money on the plane, fly the snot out of it, and sell it when you are done. You'll get your money back on the plane, and instead of being out $40K you are only out the price of gas, tiedowns, a year's worth of insurance, and whatever mx just had to be done.

In the end, spend maybe $20K and have a bunch more hours than you'll get at one of the certificate mills. And you don't have to get your hours instructing, which you do have to do at the mill schools, and which some folks just don't want to do.

 

[Richard]

Well, how bout instead of a Super Mouse, you look instead at the Beech Sports if you like the comfiness of a Beech? Being as they were primarily intended to be trainers, there are a fair number around already IFR ready for about the same cost as a C-152, or just a little more.

They are cheap to buy, with a Lyc O-320 150 hp engine they are cheap to fly. They are roomy, comfortable and have four seats, though not a bunch of useful load (750 lbs seems to be a pretty common number when I've asked.) They aren't fast, bout the same as a 152, but you said speed isn't a primary concern. They carry up to 60 gal of fuel, so you can stay up pretty much as long as your bladder can take it for some of those longer trips. And you can get them ready for what you want to do, and get to flying, instead of waiting for your plane to come out of the shop.

There is also an awfully nice Cherokee 140 on sale on ASO, with a very nice Appollo avionics panel including GX-60 IFR cert gps/comm, SL-30 nav-comm, autopilot, 160 hp engine, engine monitors, cd player, etc. But they are asking a VERY premium price for a Cherokee 140 at $55K. Still, that's about what you'd spend on that Super Mouse by the time you got the panel upgraded, and it's ready to fly now.

Thank you, Joe. Actually, I've never flown a Beech, well, once rode along sharing duties in a V-tail on short x/c but can't really count that.

Something just ocurred to me. I would want some excess power when flying IFR. Some route segments have pretty high MEAs.

BTW: I tried to give you a + rep point but it says I have to spread it around 1st. Problem is, it says that for everyone I've tried to give a point too. It's because you really know the perf data for many a/c. Good job.

 

[Richard]

Instead of spending the money to buy the plane spend the money on one of the professional pilot schools.

Len

Flying my own plane is all PIC. I don't want to get into it, but I don't trust the schools to actually do what they say. There are other issues too. And it's my money.

 

[AdamZ]

Richard:

1) I admire your plan or at least the fact that you actually have a plan.

2) You can't give Joe + rep points cause the system only lets Joe receive neg rep points. Sorry Joe I just could't resist.

3) The sport or the Sundowner does seem like a good plane for your mission. Since cost is a major factor as it is for anyone and it dosent seem like you need anything fancy other than an IFR panel.

The AA-1B is a neat little trainer, slow and fun. This one has an IFR panel and a 430 for a decent price. http://tappix.com/740688 [SIZE=-1]Performance Specs[/SIZE]

Or either of these two Cherokees

http://www.rowellair.com/Cherokee/index.htm

http://tappix.com/742689 [SIZE=-1]Performance Specs[/SIZE]

both are in the 30k range and look like they will fill your bill. Ironically in searching TAP for planes up to 50K with an IFR panel the vast majority that showed up were as just a Joe suggested Beech Sundowners or Sports. Please keep us informed on how your plan progresses.

 

[bbchien]

180 hp Arrow. You need to have complex time, it'll make multi transition (PRICEY) much shorter and easier, and you'll need it for commercial. Burn=8.5 gph at training settings. Keeps it's value, too, and most have nice panels.

Richard:

1) I admire your plan or at least the fact that you actually have a plan.

2) You can't give Joe + rep points cause the system only lets Joe receive neg rep points. Sorry Joe I just could't resist.

3) The sport or the Sundowner does seem like a good plane for your mission. Since cost is a major factor as it is for anyone and it dosent seem like you need anything fancy other than an IFR panel.

The AA-1B is a neat little trainer, slow and fun. This one has an IFR panel and a 430 for a decent price. http://tappix.com/740688 [SIZE=-1]Performance Specs[/SIZE]

Or either of these two Cherokees

http://www.rowellair.com/Cherokee/index.htm

http://tappix.com/742689 [SIZE=-1]Performance Specs[/SIZE]

both are in the 30k range and look like they will fill your bill. Ironically in searching TAP for planes up to 50K with an IFR panel the vast majority that showed up were as just a Joe suggested Beech Sundowners or Sports. Please keep us informed on how your plan progresses.

 

[Henning]

After much research and careful consideration my very supportive & loving wife and I have decided I will spend up to 13 months making personal flights to build my time. Included in this time period will be my attainment of my CFII and other dual instruction flights as they become necessary. This will become my full time occupation, hence I will quit my current business to concentrate solely and completely on this aviation plan.

The time period will commence within one or two months after I finish up some things currently in progress. The immediate goal is a pilot position in high performance multi eingine aircraft. The 3 year goal is Part 135 capt in mutliengine turbine or jet.

I've sold the Stinson so I can direct my attention towards an IFR capable single engine time builder.

And that is where you went wrong when considering your path objectives. You need a twin. A Travel Air (preferably Turbo) will do the job and do it economically. You get your MEI as well, and just do multi ratings with it and time building runs on other peoples dime. You might even come out on top monetarily if you buy the right plane. A 55 Baron would also work. An A&P could afford to do it with a 310. The thing is, everyone goes in with about the same time, so amongst your competition for these jobs, at the interview stage, all other things equal, the guy with the most multi time wins. You'll also be more ready and proficient for the next phase, the sim check. Do yourself a favor and get an HSI. It really makes life much easier, and you will be using one on your eval, so know how to use it to full advantage. I figure I got $144,000 worth of multi time (compared to the then $120hr rates for Seminole/Dutchess and Seneca rental) out of my Travel Air, and all in all, it cost me about $27k. YMMV Plus it's a wonderfull travelling plane especially with Turbos and O2.

 

[Eamon]

I changed careers a few years ago. It took about 3 years to get from 0 - to hireable.

My first plane was a 68 C-150. I picked it up the day after I got my PPL. I put 2 radios in it & used it to get my IR & build time. I flew it for 800 hrs while working my regular job.



5.5 gph of auto fuel... yea baby


I now work as a commercial pilot & I never had to get my CFI.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

...You need a twin. ...You get your MEI as well, and just do multi ratings with it and time building runs on other peoples dime. You might even come out on top monetarily if you buy the right plane. A 55 Baron would also work. An A&P could afford to do it with a 310. The thing is, everyone goes in with about the same time, so amongst your competition for these jobs, at the interview stage, all other things equal, the guy with the most multi time wins.

Amen. The only thing I would add to Henning's excellent advice would be to put a Grumman Cougar on the list of potential twins to consider.

FWIW, if my son or daughter walked up to me today and told me s/he wanted to fly for the airlines when s/he gets out of college the Mooney would be listed in Trade-A-Plan by morning and we'd be shopping for a twin because, as Henning wrote, "the guy with the most multi time wins".

Find the cheapest, most economical to operate twin and start flying it.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Sure is a bold undertaking Richard. I can identify having changes careers in the late 80s. Took a long time to get ahead again, but it's pretty good now.

Keep us up with what you decide. Complex single or light twin sound like excellent advice. If you do the single, you'll eventually need the twin. Any jet activity in your neighborhood? Some CFIs I know have been able to get some sim and right see time with local freight haulers. Crap hours and pay, but it is jet time. If you stay active and network with lots of folks, I'm sure you'll get a helping hand from some!!

Dave

 

[AdamZ]

Ya know Richard, some of us including myself jumped in with recomendations of aircraft based upon what you stated your mission was. Of course I should have realized that others with more, much more experience might suggest a different track than what you though appropriate. Bruce, Henning and Ed G are really the ones to listen to here.

 

[Henning]

Amen. The only thing I would add to Henning's excellent advice would be to put a Grumman Cougar on the list of potential twins to consider.

FWIW, if my son or daughter walked up to me today and told me s/he wanted to fly for the airlines when s/he gets out of college the Mooney would be listed in Trade-A-Plan by morning and we'd be shopping for a twin because, as Henning wrote, "the guy with the most multi time wins".

Find the cheapest, most economical to operate twin and start flying it.

Twin Comanches are nice as well, but more expensive.

 

[Henning]

Instead of spending the money to buy the plane spend the money on one of the professional pilot schools.

Len

If one has the capital to buy a plane, it is an economic waste to use one of those schools. We're talking about 1000 hrs of flying time which means you'll be working as a CFI for them and will Maybe accrue a couple hundred multi in your first 1200 hrs. This is what most the competition is showing up with as well because they wen't through the same program. Now, get your MEI and an economical twin, teach and do time building flights independently out of an ad in Trade A Plane, now you've flown a bunch of your 1000 hr block on someone elses dime and being paid for ratings. When you have your 1200 hrs together and go on that interview, you'll have 1000 hrs listed multi where as everyone else has 200. The most Multi Time wins.... Best thing, when you get that job, You have an assett you can sell rather than $100,000 worth of debt.

 

[Richard]

Ya know Richard, some of us including myself jumped in with recomendations of aircraft based upon what you stated your mission was. Of course I should have realized that others with more, much more experience might suggest a different track than what you though appropriate. Bruce, Henning and Ed G are really the ones to listen to here.

Adam, while there is much truth in what you say I would hasten to remind you that you should not hesitate to offer your advice. One reason for you to do so is because not everyone has the same perspective. Often, it is out of the mouths of babes which provocative thought doth flow.

I'm currently reading and rereading what has so far been proffered in order to respond. I have some questions but as yet they are not fully formed. Mostly in the realm of having already established a budget for the time period in question, how to stay within/under budget.

Budget is up to $100K (actually prefer 70% of that or less) which includes initial purchase, ins, instruction flights, living expenses--basically everything you can think of for up to 13 months for one adult*. That is why I was looking at least expensive plane. Perhaps if I could join up with a like minded time builder....

*Budget is for my aviation plan only. Anything else is or will be set up to take care of itself during my 13 month plan.

 

[Richard]

If one has the capital to buy a plane, it is an economic waste to use one of those schools. We're talking about 1000 hrs of flying time which means you'll be working as a CFI for them and will Maybe accrue a couple hundred multi in your first 1200 hrs. This is what most the competition is showing up with as well because they wen't through the same program. Now, get your MEI and an economical twin, teach and do time building flights independently out of an ad in Trade A Plane, now you've flown a bunch of your 1000 hr block on someone elses dime and being paid for ratings. When you have your 1200 hrs together and go on that interview, you'll have 1000 hrs listed multi where as everyone else has 200. The most Multi Time wins.... Best thing, when you get that job, You have an assett you can sell rather than $100,000 worth of debt.

Yeah!!! Getting my CFI would allow me to recoup or otherwise offset my actual costs. Think of it as hamburger helper for my budget because it would stretch my dollar that much more. But of course, the CFI is much more valuable than that.

Part of my plan involves scheduling BFRs and other instructional flights. Maybe I'll hire Michael to set up an online scheduling system for me. Anyway, it's not quite hatched yet so I'm not counting that egg.

 

[Henning]

Budget is up to $100K (actually prefer 70% of that or less) which includes initial purchase, ins, instruction flights, living expenses--basically everything you can think of for up to 13 months for one adult*. That is why I was looking at least expensive plane. Perhaps if I could join up with a like minded time builder....

*Budget is for my aviation plan only. Anything else is or will be set up to take care of itself during my 13 month plan.

It can be done with a multi for less than $100,000k budget to get 1000 hrs in a year. That you get a chunk back when (if, your choice, depends on your financial circumstance) you're done and sold the plane off, is a nice bonus. The trick is to find a good plane in good condition. Basically Travel Airs and Geronimos will get this job done for the least money. I would be hesitant to use a 160 hp Apache, but one with 180hp or better will do, but why when Beech makes a much nicer flying and performing plane for the same money. If you have a Really sweet maint deal maybe an old 310 with a modern panel and first semester engines, although it requires the really sweet maint deal, otherwise forget it.

With 1000 hrs of multi in the next year, especially if you are giving Multi IFR instruction in it, will have both you and your log book ready to walk into any interview for a right seat. Depending on your age, education and background, you might drop your resume at the majors as well as the minors. If you can swing a 310, 310 time counts as premium multi multi time. If you have a higher investment budget, you can do the same thing with a 340 (although you'll probably have to have one of the other twins first for a couple hundred hours). That's pressurized cabin time and you can add high altitude endorsements and training. This probably won't matter to larger operations, but for a Small Air Taxi guy operating a Lear and a King Air or two, or if the VLJ revolution ever comes about, this will be high value time. It would make you considerably more valueable to the operator. If you are spot on set for the airlines, I think 310 time would meet the top of the gradient for value/cost, but I don't think you need to go that far, and the Travel Air will get you in the seat. It worked for me anyway, I just thought the job sucked and I wasn't in a position to take a $55,000 a year pay hit. I basically simultaniously built two career paths, and the maritime paid much better. If it's what you want, do it.

For maximum benefit for your dollar, but the most work: You buy the cheapest 310 you can with a fresh annual at purchase (inspect the wings carefully behind the engines). Top both engines right off the bat if there is any question. While the juggs are off, renew the rod bearings and rod bolts. Do this yourself. All maint work from this point on will be done by you, so buy all the relevent manuals and disks for that plane, a good supply of tools & buddy up with an A&P quick. Next, if it hasn't been done yet set up a panel, this is where you adjust the value of "cheapest".

You want decent radios and an HSI in a standard T scan panel. No shotgun panel allowed. In 1 year and 1000 hrs, you don't want to be changing your scan and instruments for an intervier check flight. Get that right right off the bat.

If you've done well, you're in this plane under $50,000 with a panel and resonable engines. You pull back on the plane and you can get it around 20gph at altitude 24 over all on a time building flight. Figure you've got another $5-10K in maint to keep it flying for the year. Liability insurance only and you make the students/time builders have a policy to cover you and your plane for their errors. The $40k will buy you about 600 hrs worth of fuel. If you MEI and sell time building block flights cross country, you can pretty much get the other 400 hrs in without marketing too hard, and if you went hard at it, you could even eat well down into that $40k. At the end of the year, if it passes annual, fine, if it doesn't, take it apart fror salvage. If you have a reasonably straight and running 310, you have $60k in parts in front of you.

 

[Richard]

Dang, Henning! I mean, thanks for all that but it'll be awhile before I can respond because that's a lot for me to absorb. The only thing I can say right now is I have no desire to get into a 121 slot. Again, thanks for your informative post.

I'm pretty mx inclined but I am not sure of my abilities to discern what a really sweet deal is when it comes to a/c mx. When the time comes I'll be open to referalls.

 

[Henning]

Dang, Henning! I mean, thanks for all that but it'll be awhile before I can respond because that's a lot for me to absorb. The only thing I can say right now is I have no desire to get into a 121 slot. Again, thanks for your informative post.

I'm pretty mx inclined but I am not sure of my abilities to discern what a really sweet deal is when it comes to a/c mx. When the time comes I'll be open to referalls.

Sorry, let me quantify that better then, "Really Sweet Maint Deal" means you get parts at Jobber pricing or better and signatures and advice cost beer and a hand with another of his projects when he needs some umph. If you have ever picked up a manual and fixed your car, you can pick up a manual and fix your plane. I don't care what you turn wrenches on, turning the wrench is always the same. Between the manual and being able to ask some questions, it is not particularly difficult to maintain airplanes for any mechanic. There are skills most mechanics don't have dealing with sheet metal, but these skills really don't take long to aquire (a few hours really for basic skill and technique) if you have someone to show you the techniques. Really Sweet could also be an A&P who wants to fly and build time to trade out maint for hours and training. You might even make a disposal deal with them.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You have your medical issues that I think you've mentioned before wrapped up, Richard?

If so and you have not one, but two twins as I recall, available for operating expenses only* then WT_ are you you even considering all these other purchase/commitment routes for? Why not blast through whatever ratings you need in the cheapest or most interesting thing to you flying that the instructors will fly in with you and start blasting through your logging of twin time? In your case, getting insurance to do CFI in a twin not affiliated with a flight school may be impossible (call an insurance company if you haven't already) but, your twin flying arrangements aforementioned would appear to make that point moot in so far as simply accumulating your multi-hours in the amounts that could conceivably make you marketable.

OTOH, if you just got all your ratings and bought your own multi for your own company, who would be writing the steeenking hours requirements then?

*I blundered into a generous old pilot/owner that let me fly CFI and pleasure flights in his Cherokee 180 for gas & oil $ and I'm here to tell you those deals are GOOD!

 

[poadeleted3]

snip

BTW: I tried to give you a + rep point but it says I have to spread it around 1st. Problem is, it says that for everyone I've tried to give a point too. It's because you really know the perf data for many a/c. Good job.

Well, thank you very much anyway

 

[poadeleted3]

Amen. The only thing I would add to Henning's excellent advice would be to put a Grumman Cougar on the list of potential twins to consider.

FWIW, if my son or daughter walked up to me today and told me s/he wanted to fly for the airlines when s/he gets out of college the Mooney would be listed in Trade-A-Plan by morning and we'd be shopping for a twin because, as Henning wrote, "the guy with the most multi time wins".

Find the cheapest, most economical to operate twin and start flying it.

Lots of Apaches around for cheap. Gotta be careful, though, because lots of the ones I've seen look kind of clobbered.

 

[wsuffa]

Twin Comanches are nice as well, but more expensive.

When I was at the Pilot Shoppe the other day (buying a new logbook, mine is filled...), I noticed an ad on the bulletin board for a Turbo TwinCo, $115,000. Engines are midtime, avionics include Garmin 430 + HSI.

Were I currently employed, I might consider it, except for the part where it is not certified for K-Ice.

 

[Eamon]

Dang, Henning! I mean, thanks for all that but it'll be awhile before I can respond because that's a lot for me to absorb. The only thing I can say right now is I have no desire to get into a 121 slot. Again, thanks for your informative post.

I'm pretty mx inclined but I am not sure of my abilities to discern what a really sweet deal is when it comes to a/c mx. When the time comes I'll be open to referalls.

If you don't want to wind up in a 121 job, don't worry about the twin time. Buying a twin is a VERY expensive risk. Get a cheap single & if you ever need twin time rent a twin with a friend & fly 50, 100 or 200 hrs.

There are places in Fl & AZ that will pair you up with another pilot and let you shoot approaches for a week or so to build cheap time.

You can get a job at a cargo company that will move you into a twin having very little twin time.

You can get a job flying a Caravan with no twin time.

 

[TMetzinger]

If the three year goal is to fly a jet or turboprop for a 135 operator, and not be flying a Caravan, then twin time will be a big factor.

I agree that getting a twin and flying the snot out of it is the best way to get the aeronautical experience.

Then when you have the time, get a type rating and the ATP in a single ride. Then you'll be in a decent position to compete with the fired/furloughed Independence Air and other airline pilots for a job flying bizjets.

Even the cargo operators like Ameristar look for lots of multi time and prefer it be turbine.