My long cross country for 1st solo

saracelica

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saracelica
Hi Forum readers -
Anyone like to chime in on my thoughts of going from KTDZ to KRID to I12? Seems like it's good to me, albeit a long one but that'd mean it'd be easier to get my solo xc hours,right? Or is such a long flight not good for a first one? (total of 253nm) I know it's my xc I should decide but I'd hate to do all the planning and have my CFI veto it for something not obvious to me.
 
When you consider the long XC is 200 nm (minimum) then your 253 nm isn't that big a deal. Does the CFI have a "suggested" route? Most do.

Besides, so what if you do all the planning and the CFI vetoes it? Still good practice for planning.
 
200nm is for Instrument. I'm still on my PPL. He suggested TDZ-KCQA-KAXV-KTDZ
 
I did a few extra long XC during my PP and didn't really need to. Sometimes checking the block is fine -- you can do all sorts of long XC once you have your ticket!
 
My long cross country was 76G - KAPN - (KTVC) - KMKG - 76G. TVC is in parens because I couldn't land due to an airshow, but I got as close to it as I legally could. It was a challenging and very fun trip, and I don't regret doing it for a minute.

I say do the longer route if your CFI will sign off on it, if it's what you want to do.
 
200nm is for Instrument. I'm still on my PPL. He suggested TDZ-KCQA-KAXV-KTDZ

Actually the instrument is 250nm, and the private is 150nm. I'm so used to the 100 nm distance around here (we've got a few "standard" long xc routes) that I assumed the 200 nm.

For example, take FTG/APA/COS/PUB/GLD/AKO/LIC/SNY and mix & match.

FTG-PUB-APA-FTG In any order this is 3 stops, at least one is 50 nm, total is a bit over 200 nm
 
Why not something along the lake, like Port Clinton or Sandusky? At least you'd have something to look at besides cornfields. If I recall, you only have to go 50nm. Besides, the lake is an awesome landmark.
 
the lake would be nice if it weren't for "lake effect snow" which is horrendous! At least this time of year. :)
 
You're not going to get away from that on a short cross country, and you'll need pretty clear weather to do it at all. I finished up my PPL about this time of year, and I recall the wx windows closing up fast. More importantly, T-town is usually in the lee of that stuff, if I recall correctly.
 
I won't send anyone out on a 253nm trip for their first solo XC. That's just too far with too much to go wrong for me to be comfortable with the risk. Typically, I will require the first solo XC to be on a route we've already flown together, usually about 60-75nm each way out and back. This provides better confidence for the trainee and assurance for me that the first solo will be a successful, positive experience. Even on their long solo XC, I am reluctant to send them much farther than 100nm from home, or more than four hours from departure to return, simply because of the time involved and the potential for conditions to change significantly en route. Perhaps I'm overly conservative, but it's just a case where I don't see the gain outweighing the increased risk.
 
Ron is on the money....nibble at your experiences, swallowing whole may not be in your best interests. I would be surprised if your CFI would sign off on such a long attempt on your first solo X-C. Believe me, you're gonna be super wound up after the solo X-C, not matter how far the flight. Like Ron said, why take on risks that are not necessary or wise at this point in your experience. Just my 2 cents.
 
I did all of my solo XC requirements in one day, and then came back and did the night takeoffs and landings portion. The first solo XC was to an airport about an hour away east and back that my instructor and I had gone to before. That felt good, so I hopped back in the plane and did my second one, which was a 3-legged triangle, about an hour west, hour northeast, and then hour southeast back home.

I would talk this over with your CFI first. Chances are, he'll want you to first go to an airport you've been to before and back. But if you find a good weather day to do all your solo XC hours and you're both comfortable with it, no reason not to.
 
My dad's first solo cross country was 296nm. 9D9-6D9-HTL-9C8-9D9 and I didn't allow him to use his GPS. Then again pretty hard to get lost in Michigan. Climb, and look for water. If you see a giant bay, you're near Saginaw, if the coastline is long and relatively straight you're on the west side of the state. Two large inland lakes with major highways on either side, you're near Houghton Lake. And most roads run e-w/n-s so it's pretty easy to figure out which direction you are going if your dg and compass crap out.
 
Okay, I missed that this was also your first solo XC. My first solo XC was to HTL, my long one was #2. Honestly I'm not sure that it matters much, if you've done lots of solo work in the practice area and are comfortable and proficient navigating with pilotage and whatever your plane is equipped with. Discuss it with your CFI and see what you're both comfortable with. Ultimately it's his decision to sign you off or not.

That said, I did all my solo student work at the height of summer, and it was close to nightfall when I got back from my long XC (I stopped for dinner at MKG). This time of year you have limited daylight. You do NOT want to be in the position of having to rush to make it back before sunset. Also, we seem to be in a very changeable (at best) weather pattern right now, and it might be a long wait for conditions good enough to do your trip of choice. You might want to plan two or three alternate routes in different directions, wait for a day when one of them is doable, and then get your CFI's approval and go get it done.

Good luck!
 
Sorry it's not my "first" XC. I mistyped it's my first long cross country trip. I was thinking first trip to it. I figure whatever my long xc is I'd just do it twice. I did my other solo trip but it wasn't a xc it was just a 25nm trip.
 
For a 1st solo xc, this time of year, it is a good idea to go South, away from the Lakes and their possible lake effect snow. Good choice.

For radio procedure work, I would try to head to a Class D or Class C airport for one of the stops.

Is there a requirement for leg length? When I got my PP-ASEL, my CFI wanted at least 50nm legs, and frankly, it isn't a bad idea... gives you a bit more en-route time to prepare for the next approach/landing.
 
Weather is the main reason to avoid long (all day) X/c's during your student phase.

Weather can turn on you like a wild animal that is normally a docile pet.

Be 100% sure that the weather will be nice for the next couple days before you venture more than a couple hundred miles. And plan on getting back waaay before dark.
 
For a 1st solo xc, this time of year, it is a good idea to go South, away from the Lakes and their possible lake effect snow. Good choice.

For radio procedure work, I would try to head to a Class D or Class C airport for one of the stops.

Is there a requirement for leg length? When I got my PP-ASEL, my CFI wanted at least 50nm legs, and frankly, it isn't a bad idea... gives you a bit more en-route time to prepare for the next approach/landing.

Yes, leg length required in 61.whatever. The long XC is 3-legs, 150 nm, one leg must be at least 50 nm. (Hawaii exempt)
 
I do not recommend a long flight for your first one. In fact, I'd recommend a flight barely long enough to qualify for a cross country.

Things can go south in a hurry, and as a student on a first solo cross country, if you get really lost in the wrong area, you might panic. I dont know, but I'd just recommend a shorter trip.

Gotta take baby steps, build up your confidence. If you take a long one, and something happens and destroys your confidence, you'll be even scared to take a short trip.
 
I do not recommend a long flight for your first one. In fact, I'd recommend a flight barely long enough to qualify for a cross country.

Things can go south in a hurry, and as a student on a first solo cross country, if you get really lost in the wrong area, you might panic. I dont know, but I'd just recommend a shorter trip.

Gotta take baby steps, build up your confidence. If you take a long one, and something happens and destroys your confidence, you'll be even scared to take a short trip.

Remember that everyone is different, so just because that works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone.

Things CAN go south in a hurry. But that's part of the CFI's job to help pick out an appropriate day. Nothing wrong with a longer trip for a first solo XC if the student and CFI feel that the student is ready for it. It's not like she's flying from NY to LA.
 
Remember that everyone is different, so just because that works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone.

Things CAN go south in a hurry. But that's part of the CFI's job to help pick out an appropriate day. Nothing wrong with a longer trip for a first solo XC if the student and CFI feel that the student is ready for it. It's not like she's flying from NY to LA.

Yep.

I'll wager the CFI in this situation knows what's possible and will counsel accordingly.
 
Sara -

Safety of flight is always the first consideration. Here are some of the factors for you to consider as you exercise this new position of command and for your instructor to consider, too.

Experience. How much experience do you have flying cross country? Are you able to pick out waypoints and checkpoints you have never seen before? Are you OK with navigating with VORs and GPS and all the aids that will be available to you? Are you experienced in using the radio for Flight Following?

Fuel. Will you have enough fuel for the flight and for getting lost? Do you know how to fuel the aircraft alone? Is fuel available at your stops? Do you faithfully monitor fuel consumption? At what point do you refuel?

Weather and Daylight. The further you fly, the more likely it is that the weather will change unexpectedly. Daylight fades earlier in the winter. Have you prepared for the contingency of losing weather and daylight during the trip?

Terrain. Is the terrain you will overfly hostile? uninhabited? overcrowded?

Planning. Call FSS with this flight plan over several days as though you will fly today until you are completely familiar with the route and what to expect from the weather and other planning considerations.

Student Pilot. Use Flight Following. Always use the words "student pilot" on the radio and with FSS. It is an amazing help. On my first cross-country, the approach controller assured me that I was never alone out there.

Personal well-being. Do you tire after two or three hours of flying? Have you ever flown for over six hours in one day? Do you know how well you do after getting tired? Be sure to eat and drink (and pee) before leaving. On such a long trip, you must also allow for eating and drinking along the way to keep your blood-sugar and hydration up. Check out the IMSAFE checklist at each stop. http://www.leftseat.com/imsafe.htm

Prepare for the worst. If you expect your flight to take four hours, plan what to do if it takes eight. If you expect your aircraft to perform perfectly, plan what to do if the alternator fails at the far point. Do you know which airports along the way have maintenance service? Have you figured out how you will land at those airports where you don't plan to land? You've practiced engine failures. Have you thought about what you do after you are sitting alone in a frozen field? Take along pajamas and any medication you may need for the next day. And a working flashlight.

Rescue. If you are unable to complete your flight, the school will need to come get you and the airplane. The further you are from the home base, the more expensive the rescue becomes. Don't make it be urgent, too.

It will be wonderful. This is one of the best confidence building exercises ever. After all the preparation I've suggested above, you'll probably find that none of it was needed. phew. It's great to know that you could handle anything.

If you consider all of these things, your instructor will be thoroughly impressed that you are not only prepared for this flight, you are prepared for the one I'm about to make. And that is what it is all about. Despite what Ted said, plan as though you are flying from NY to LA.
 
Just want to add, I'm glad to see you're so confident! That'll go along way. Just don't be over confident :)
 
Leslie's only solo XC was about 240NM. She said that she wouldn't really recommend making one that long and that she only did it because she was coming up against a (self-imposed) deadline, as she'd scheduled her check-ride and kept having XCs weathered out.
 
Leslie's only solo XC was about 240NM. She said that she wouldn't really recommend making one that long and that she only did it because she was coming up against a (self-imposed) deadline, as she'd scheduled her check-ride and kept having XCs weathered out.
The long solo cross-country requirement was shortened from 300 miles back in the 1990s, and back even further the requirement was for 3 legs of at least 100 miles each. I remember that being a challenge in California because you are limited by the ocean to the west and the Sierras to the east. The middle leg had to be pretty long.
 
You're learning how to be a private pilot and as a private pilot you'll want to do trips like that. If your instructor won't let you do it now as your long cross country then why would you suddenly be more qualified to do so once you passed the checkride?

There are plenty of instructors that would approve it. If they won't sign off on it - talk with them about why they won't. Chances are they are just trying to shove you through training while reducing all possible risk to them. If that is the kind of training they're providing then you might want to find one that'll teach you to be a pilot. Not a checkride monkey.

Too many private pilots that are terribly afraid of really using their certificate because their CFI never let them.
 
Too many private pilots that are terribly afraid of really using their certificate because their CFI never let them.

+1...
 
Sorry, Jesse, but I'm going to defer to this CFI's judgment before casting him/her into the "these CFIs ain't no good" pile.

How many certificated pilots do you know that remain "afraid" because their "CFI didn't let them" do some long XC? Sure, there may be a few who recently earned the ticket, but we all claim each certificate is a "license to learn."

Any pilot still active one year past the PP issuance is on his/ her own time. Afraid to do an XC? Sorry -- the pilot's problem. Can't blame the CFI anymore.

I plan to take a student out on a really marginal VFR day and do some scud running to see what can happen (and was blasted for it on here -- yawn). I also plan at least one approach in IMC, and require an XC over the Alleghenies. None of those are in the PTS, and it might add a few hours to the total, but I think if you're gonna fly in Pennsylvania you should know what you will encounter and how to fix (get the IR).

Some folks are timid and some are overconfident by nature.

It's the CFI's job to know the student well enough to determine what type he's dealing with and adjust accordingly.

But -- once the student becomes a pilot, the expectation is -- you're free to move about the country.
 
Sorry, Jesse, but I'm going to defer to this CFI's judgment before casting him/her into the "these CFIs ain't no good" pile.

I didn't see Jesse saying that, nor did the OP say her instructor was doing that. She was using PoA as a sounding board, and getting different opinions. Jesse was pointing out that as a possibility, which is correct.

How many certificated pilots do you know that remain "afraid" because their "CFI didn't let them" do some long XC? Sure, there may be a few who recently earned the ticket, but we all claim each certificate is a "license to learn."

The XC that our OP has talked about is not long at all. The fact that most people thing it is I think is a reflection on Jesse's point. I do know a number of private pilots who think that trips that long are nuts, and a good number on this forum. If you don't want to do them because that's not your goal in flying, that's fine. To not want to do them because you're afraid is indicative of a problem.

Any pilot still active one year past the PP issuance is on his/ her own time. Afraid to do an XC? Sorry -- the pilot's problem. Can't blame the CFI anymore.

There's a bit of both going on. How many students have you had to fix problems in because a bad CFI instilled fear or some other problem into the pilot? I've seen it more times than I care to count.

I plan to take a student out on a really marginal VFR day and do some scud running to see what can happen (and was blasted for it on here -- yawn). I also plan at least one approach in IMC, and require an XC over the Alleghenies. None of those are in the PTS, and it might add a few hours to the total, but I think if you're gonna fly in Pennsylvania you should know what you will encounter and how to fix (get the IR).

Some folks are timid and some are overconfident by nature.

It's the CFI's job to know the student well enough to determine what type he's dealing with and adjust accordingly.

But -- once the student becomes a pilot, the expectation is -- you're free to move about the country.

And there are a lot of people who don't, which I would attribute to a combination of attitude and training. The training should never restrict you.
 
My first long solo XC (3rd solo xc) as a student pilot was 290NM

Let me be the first to tell you: It was one of the best feelings I've ever had as a student pilot. It was like when you soloed, but this time you were hundreds of miles away and you knew you did it by yourself.

With that said: I think it was pretty intense for a me as a student pilot to do that because as a student pilot I told myself I will not use a GPS until I find myself lost, so I would turn off the GPS and I had to VOR/Pilotage all the way. It can get pretty exciting when you drift off for 2-3 minutes then you look for a private airstrip as it shows on your chart and when you find it down there you literally start screaming and yelling and congratulating yourself.

Leaving the GPS off for XC during my student pilot days was the best thing I ever did.

Do it, if you feel like you can sit in a plane for hours, but be prepared to stop at any of the landing spots and wait weather out.
 
The XC that our OP has talked about is not long at all. The fact that most people thing it is I think is a reflection on Jesse's point. I do know a number of private pilots who think that trips that long are nuts, and a good number on this forum. If you don't want to do them because that's not your goal in flying, that's fine. To not want to do them because you're afraid is indicative of a problem.

I'm not sure. Fear arises from many different motivations, some unreasonable, many inexplicable, but not all unfounded.

Flying airplanes increases risk to life, limb, and property -- pretending it doesn't is a disservice. Flying long distances VFR entails risk. So does flying low, aerobatics, IFR, pattern work, hand propping, and refueling.

CFIs can counsel, argue, cajole, and demonstrate, but ultimately the pilot must determine the level of risk he or she is willing to accept and the methods used to create a buffer between event and activity. Good old ADM and all that.

"Safety first" is an inane mantra -- if it really was "safety first" we wouldn't be flying -- we'd be safely ensconced on a couch.

There's a bit of both going on. How many students have you had to fix problems in because a bad CFI instilled fear or some other problem into the pilot? I've seen it more times than I care to count.

I've encountered a few CFIs, DPEs, and FAA ASIs that put out bad info, some inculcated unfounded fears, others had poor teaching skills, and more than one had poor judgment.

They're all people, and each has all sorts of motivations going on in the stew that makes people do what they do. I'm sure more than one pilot on this board approaches each flight with a sense of dread and only truly feels release when the flight is over -- and he/she may continue to fly just for that "Face the Dragon" sensation.

Others talk a good game -- "Yeah, I lost both engines in IMC and on the way down we iced up and then I slid it onto the interstate. So what?"

This is mere defense mechanism, honed by years of false bravado. This type needs to constantly prove himself, and fear most the inability to face down fear.

Others have varying degrees of anxiety -- some days the flight goes on like driving a bus, others there's nagging premonition of doom that only dissipates on the drive home.

We CFIs have to admit there's risk, help the fledgling learn to manage risk, and then accept the risk once the decision is made.

And there are a lot of people who don't, which I would attribute to a combination of attitude and training. The training should never restrict you.

Again, I think this is based on the individual. Some people lack the imagination required to admit something might go wrong. I'm sure you've seen these kick the tires, light the fires types in your travels -- these folks needed a bit more warning during training.

Instead they lope merrily along until the NTSB report.

Others are fearful and only learning to fly to face down that fear, or there's some other motivation that's forcing them to face the fear. Training and mentoring has to help these folks deflate the fear balloons to actual size.

I'm not arguing that the OP should or shouldn't go on this trip -- heck, my second long solo XC was across the Alleghenies in a clapped out 152 with no electric and I blithely flew along, enjoying the view.

Anyway, the CFI in this case knows the OP better than any of us do, and should be providing the best advice. The comments on here may be useful, interesting, or even perfectly correct -- but no poster here is signing the OPs logbook.
 
You're learning how to be a private pilot and as a private pilot you'll want to do trips like that. If your instructor won't let you do it now as your long cross country then why would you suddenly be more qualified to do so once you passed the checkride?
+1 This is where you really prove you are PILOT IN COMMAND.
 
Anyway, the CFI in this case knows the OP better than any of us do, and should be providing the best advice. The comments on here may be useful, interesting, or even perfectly correct -- but no poster here is signing the OPs logbook.

This is ultimately why I think most of the time, coming to this forum as a student looking for advice prior to talking to the CFI is not a good idea. Most people on here think they know the answer, and will ultimately confuse the student more than help. This is the reason why I stopped asking questions a month or two into my training on here, and stuck to asking my instructor. I realized that it wasn't helping me to get a bunch of conflicting answers, none of which ever really had much relevance to my training, from people who didn't know me, my instructor, or what my goals were. My instructor, on the other hand, knew and understood where I was going with flying, and did a good job of enabling it to happen.

Most students do themselves a good service by sticking to their instructor, and only coming here if they need a second opinion after the fact because they suspect the instructor is somehow doing the student a disservice.
 
Most students do themselves a good service by sticking to their instructor, and only coming here if they need a second opinion after the fact because they suspect the instructor is somehow doing the student a disservice.

Sure -- as long as they're asking to confirm or expand what they know as opposed to second-guess.

Some folks just like to be contrary -- they're not much fun to teach.
 
I won't send anyone out on a 253nm trip for their first solo XC. That's just too far with too much to go wrong for me to be comfortable with the risk. Typically, I will require the first solo XC to be on a route we've already flown together, usually about 60-75nm each way out and back. This provides better confidence for the trainee and assurance for me that the first solo will be a successful, positive experience.

This was my experience. Because we had done the entire KDTO-KDUA-KADM-KDTO route as dual, doing it solo was cake.

It made finding landmarks and the airports on my own much simpler because I already knew what to look for.

During the dual, we practiced quite a lot of what we had learned up to that point, so the time wasn't a complete "I'm just paying for you to sit there and enjoy the ride". The CFI used the time to ask lots of questions and quiz me on items that would (and did) apply to the checkride.


And as Peggy suggests, do make us of Flight Following with the words "Student Pilot" with your initial request. I lucked out and got an initial controller who was friendly and wasn't super busy. He took good care of me as I passed through his sector. The next controller was busier, but I still got all the information I needed from him to ensure safe flying and not feel like I was out in the middle of nowhere with no one to help me. Having someone occasionally call, "Diamond 9PA..." and provide some needed info was very comforting.
 
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Yes, leg length required in 61.whatever. The long XC is 3-legs, 150 nm, one leg must be at least 50 nm. (Hawaii exempt)

Not necessarily true. One landing must be at an airport at least 50 nm from the point of origin.

When I was a student pilot my CFI never signed off on a trip to an airport we hadn't been to together. The purpose of the XC flights wasn't to go exploring, it was to practice navigation to points farther away than you could see from over the home drome. His standard first XC was OLM (home) to KLS. 51 nm. IFR (I follow roads) down I-5 if you wanted to add a little distance. If you could get lost flying that trip you really needed to do something else with your time. But, VFR navigation around here is easy. Tall mountains to the east and north west. Water to the north (Puget Sound). Relatively flat land to the south (all the way to PDX after crossing the Columbia River). Long XC was OLM-PWT-KLS-OLM. Yeah, I know, right back over the home field on the PWT-KLS leg. In fact, the first attempt I aborted at OLM as the weather to the south didn't look like something I wanted to explore (clouds looked too low for comfort). Last XC hours for my private were gained with another shot down to KLS. I was a few 10ths short, so I grabbed the club's 150 (for the last time), flogged it down the KLS and back. Traffic on I-5 was passing me on the way down. Doesn't take much head wind in a 150 for that to happen.

Comments above about watching the weather and wanting a long window of good conditions are spot on. It can change in a hurry, and not for the better.

Have fun.
 
In my opinion every solo cross country should take into consideration the students skills, comfort level and geographic location. What seems like a huge cross country in a populated area of the country is trivial here in Wyoming. 30 years ago I took my solo X country down in Fla. It was, Apopka, to Tamiami, to Everglades City and back home. 300 + nm. It was new territory to me, had not been flown with my instructor on a dual flight. He quizzed me on my planning and felt comfortable with it. Nothing comes close to my first solo without the instructor sitting beside me but... That successful cross country added a ton of confidence for me... Flight following and proper planning will ease the whole deal. Keep in mind a sheltered student pilot will not grasp the complete concept of flying long distances. The other side of the coin is a unprepared student pilot can get into trouble fast so hopefully the instructor is on top of his/her game and will be able to logically and safely assess the students ability and act accordingly. To limit a student simply because it will minimize the instructors liability is not fair to the student pilot. To blindly release the student to fly when he/she is not ready is deadly. It is a fine line to balance..... Sara,,,, when you are ready..... YOU will know it...

Be safe...... But. ya need to push the envelope to learn..

Ben.
 
When I was a student pilot my CFI never signed off on a trip to an airport we hadn't been to together.
I know there are CFIs that feel the same way, but I was required to pick new airports for my solo cross countries and I required it of the students I had. It was presented to me as a bit of an adventure and that's how I approached it as a CFI too. I think that in many ways we take on the style of the CFI we had, at least if we thought they did a decent job.

I know there are as many opinions about things as there are pilots. Some students may find that confusing. I don't know what I would have thought because there was no internet in those days and I didn't know many (any) pilots personally until after I got my private. For that reason I think my CFI had a very large influence on me. I don't see any problem with pilots reading other opinions of things off the internet as long as they realize they are just opinions. The problems comes when someone tries to follow many conflicting versions of advice.
 
The long solo cross-country requirement was shortened from 300 miles back in the 1990s, and back even further the requirement was for 3 legs of at least 100 miles each.
I was an instructor back then, and remember all the problems we had with those comparatively long XC's, particularly with weather and daylight, especially in 85-knot training planes with 24-gallon fuel tanks which turned those XC's into all-day adventures. Those problems were what drove the FAA to cut the requirements back to what they are now. Instructors whose experience doesn't include those events may feel otherwise, but those experiences are what drive my thinking on the subject.

OTOH, I think cutting the solo experience requirement from 20 to 10 and the solo XC experience requirement from 10 to 5 were really bad ideas.
 
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OTOH, I think cutting the solo experience requirement from 20 to 10 and the solo XC experience requirement from 10 to 5 were really bad ideas.


I agree with that 100%
 
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