My First Annual - What to fix?

F

FlyingElvii

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Jun 24, 2016
Messages
797
Display Name
Display name:
flyingElvii
In the middle of my first annual for the airplane I became a partner in last year, and I get to be the one dealing with it. I have a few questions about it I thought the veterans of this stuff could help me with.

This airplane was not very active until another guy and myself bought into the club, and the previous annuals seem to have been done on the cheap. Luckily, there are only a couple of airworthiness items, and they seem to be inexpensive fixes. The engine was overhauled by a reputable shop last year, and we don't have to deal with the recent Lycoming AD, either.

However, we seem to be encountering a laundry list of small fixes, most of which were deferred from previous annuals. My first impression is to fix everything, but a couple of the others just want to get out of it as cheaply as possible. (Wires not bound, shroud, worn out cabin vent fan, old lines on the master cylinders, etc.). And, we will have to deal with the main gear donuts soon, it seems.

It is adding up in AMU's

What say the experts?
 
Annual inspection dictates airworthiness items to be corrected. Additional repairs are optional. The difference between an old beater and a nice airplane is generally a measure of optional maintenance. Find your own comfort level.
 
Welcome to club life!

Three types of members in many clubs:
Those that pinch every penny like it is theirs.
Those that manage every dollar like it is theirs.
Those that spend every dollar like is is someone else's.

I'm the guy in the middle. Literally, I'm the Treasurer.

If it's airworthiness and/or safety related - Do it. No questions.
That cabin vent fan I would want to see fixed Comfort... and we're in Texas. Might not care up North.
Cosmetics I put at the bottom of the list.

Beware of the feeling that the club is flush with cash. We were having a happy feeling. Spent ~$3k on repainting the cowling, gear doors, touching up leading edges, a bunch of cosmetic stuff. And THEN we got the news from Lycoming and that plane is being inspected as we speak.

So there ya go.
 
Fix everything that is a safety item. No exceptions.

If you give us the make and the assembled multitude of POA advice givers may be able to offer some insight for a first annual.

Myself, I would think of the failure scenarios that could make the plane unairworthy, and if there are any indicators of final failure that would lead to a safety problem, and pay attention to those. when you observe such indicator, ground the plane and call your AMT.

Such as Wires not bound: can they get near something critical if unbound? Start a monthly program to inspect.

Vent fan noisy? meh...

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Fix everything that is a safety item. No exceptions.

If you give us the make and the assembled multitude of POA advice givers may be able to offer some insight for a first annual.

Myself, I would think of the failure scenarios that could make the plane unairworthy, and if there are any indicators of final failure that would lead to a safety problem, and pay attention to those. when you observe such indicator, ground the plane and call your AMT.

Such as Wires not bound: can they get near something critical if unbound? Start a monthly program to inspect.

Vent fan noisy? meh...

-Skip
Click to expand...
Sundowner
 
Ravioli said:
Welcome to club life!

Three types of members in many clubs:
Those that pinch every penny like it is theirs.
Those that manage every dollar like it is theirs.
Those that spend every dollar like is is someone else's.

I'm the guy in the middle. Literally, I'm the Treasurer.

If it's airworthiness and/or safety related - Do it. No questions.
That cabin vent fan I would want to see fixed Comfort... and we're in Texas. Might not care up North.
Cosmetics I put at the bottom of the list.

Beware of the feeling that the club is flush with cash. We were having a happy feeling. Spent ~$3k on repainting the cowling, gear doors, touching up leading edges, a bunch of cosmetic stuff. And THEN we got the news from Lycoming and that plane is being inspected as we speak.

So there ya go.
Click to expand...
The club is not flush with cash, especially after the overhaul, but that is by design. We budgeted for the annual and a couple of extras, but anything over that will require an assessment.
 
Stewartb said:
Annual inspection dictates airworthiness items to be corrected. Additional repairs are optional. The difference between an old beater and a nice airplane is generally a measure of optional maintenance. Find your own comfort level.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

The "small stuff" gets deferred and eventually piles up to the point it's "too expensive" to fix everything.
Nothing says you have to make these repairs only after the annual inspection. Spread the cost to the partnership a bit at a time over the year and tackle some of the non-airworthy items. "Old lines on master cylinders" is not the sort of thing to ignore until one fails.
 
In that case I'd only consider extras that are less expensive to do "while you're already in there." Defer the rest, and maybe adjust dues or usage fees to have a little bigger maintenance kitty. (uh-oh, I just invited the cat pictures)
 
Fix them...they're not going to fix themselves. You're in a club to share costs, not to diffuse blame if a small problem becomes big.
 
Ravioli said:
In that case I'd only consider extras that are less expensive to do "while you're already in there." Defer the rest, and maybe adjust dues or usage fees to have a little bigger maintenance kitty. (uh-oh, I just invited the cat pictures)
Click to expand...

IMG_0284.JPG
 
Those minor items are not expensive. Unbound wires (does that mean not properly laced?), hydraulic hoses, fan? Set aside $500 and see how many of the items you can get repaired. I'm guessing you could do some of it by yourself. For instance, lacing wires, ordering the parts, etc? The mechanic bills for doing that work. You could do if for "free"...
 
A few solutions I have seen (never been part of a club, so no personal experience).
Set a budget before starting.
Anything airworthy, fix regardless of budget. Any money left over after airworthy items can go to any additional repairs the person managing it decides.
A few variations I have seen have been deal with such as setting the optional repair budget which is above any airworthy items, split budgets between cosmetics, general non-safety repairs, and upgrades.

Good luck,

Tim
 
FlyingElvii said:
In the middle of my first annual for the airplane I became a partner in last year, and I get to be the one dealing with it. I have a few questions about it I thought the veterans of this stuff could help me with.

This airplane was not very active until another guy and myself bought into the club, and the previous annuals seem to have been done on the cheap. Luckily, there are only a couple of airworthiness items, and they seem to be inexpensive fixes. The engine was overhauled by a reputable shop last year, and we don't have to deal with the recent Lycoming AD, either.

However, we seem to be encountering a laundry list of small fixes, most of which were deferred from previous annuals. My first impression is to fix everything, but a couple of the others just want to get out of it as cheaply as possible. (Wires not bound, shroud, worn out cabin vent fan, old lines on the master cylinders, etc.). And, we will have to deal with the main gear donuts soon, it seems.

It is adding up in AMU's

What say the experts?
Click to expand...
Make a list of all the items. After each item put a yes or no. Give a copy to each member and tell em to vote. Could be this simple. Do you have an odd or even number of members?
 
FlyingElvii said:
...This airplane was not very active until another guy and myself bought into the club, and the previous annuals seem to have been done on the cheap...
Click to expand...

This becomes a problem in any partnership. Although it can be a bonus in terms of availability when you want to fly, the danger of having partners that don't use the plane is they lose interest, don't want to spend any money on it, and the plane starts being maintained to "the lowest common denominator". At that point it's good to have a comprehensive partnership agreement to fall back on and/or try to persuade the dis-interested owner(s) they need to sell and put their share in the hands of somebody who really wants it.
 
I rent a hanger for a month to do annuals and other maintenance. We can do the annual in 3 days if we work 8hrs/day. Each year I have a list of things I would like to repair, replace or install. I try not to defer things as my hanger time is normally limited to the month of the annual.
 
Even on nice, well maintained airplanes the amount of ongoing work to keep them nice can be quite high. It sounds like you're already behind the game, thanks to your cheapskate partners.

My opinion would be to fix as many of the problems as you can afford to. They're not going to fix themselves and the airplane is only going to slip further into disrepair the more it is used without addressing the problems.
 
^^^ it was in a condition satisfactory to buy in, wasn't it? You of course had a mechanic go over the plane and logs before you wrote the check, right?

Buying into a partnership or equity club requires the same diligence as a sole ownership buy.

If the "stuff" has been deferred since before you bought, you would have known that.

Trust me, I've had to search through the logs and explain stuff to new members buying in to our club. Very few come along who don't bring an A&P before they commit.
 
Pay me now or pay me later,when you defer small fixes,they only get bigger and more expensive.
 
There's a concept here you can bring back to the club and see the members temperature on...

Rentals are often beaters.

People join clubs or partnerships often because they're tired of flying beaters. It's often the biggest draw of a well run club or partnership.

If your members joined to not fly beaters, tell them not flying a beater costs what it costs.

If they joined to "save money", you'll soon have beaters and be no better than renting the clapped out Skyhawk at the FBO.

Now that said, it helps if what constitutes a "beater" to the majority is not in doubt. Our airplane probably needs an interior replacement. It's close to time. The interior is functional and not torn up other than one headrest which is covered up well, and plastic stuff busted in small areas. The stuff gets brittle. The carpet is 40 years old, not perfect and a hideous original color, but it's not "nasty". "Functional and dated" is the condition. But...

We'd rather put $20,000 into the panel soon than into carpet and upholstery. The ADS-B mandate and the world going to GPS is somewhat forcing our hand, but we agree on this. We are shooting for a functional and safe aircraft above all else with reasonable dispatch reliability. The airplane takes us places. That's its first job. Looking good is a plus but not mandatory unless we decide to sell it. Because... many people buy looks. Not mechanical soundness. Sad, but true.

If it's going to ground the airplane it gets done. If it's adding safety it gets done. If it's the somewhat ugly interior it's deferred right now. But we still hunted down a new panel cover and installed it when the cracking plastic became too annoying. We LOOK at that. My butt can't see the lovely "goldenrod" upholstery when I'm sitting on it.

Find out if your club members want, functional but ugly, functional and nice looking, or better than a beater rental in every possible way. Make sure they know where everyone stands on that question. That allows everyone to start from a mutual respect position of knowing exactly where all parties stand in their "needs" vs "wants" for the aircraft.
 
Not everybody has the same thoughts on what constitutes an airworthiness item. Could one become overcome from fumes if a vent fan fails? Unsecured wiring may seem like nothing, but it is hanging out there vibrating and slowly work hardening.
 
FlyingElvii said:
I
What say the experts?
Click to expand...

read
91.405 Maintenance required.
Each owner or operator of an aircraft—

(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;
 
Tom-D said:
read 91.405 Maintenance required.
Each owner or operator of an aircraft—
(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;
Click to expand...
So, what does (c) allow?
Here it is:
(c) Shall have any inoperative instrument or item of equipment, permitted to be inoperative by §91.213(d)(2) of this part, repaired, replaced, removed, or inspected at the next required inspection; and
(d) When listed discrepancies include inoperative instruments or equipment, shall ensure that a placard has been installed as required by §43.11 of this chapter.
 
Last edited:
And...
Tom-D said:
... have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;
Click to expand...
43.11 (7) (b) Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or §135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends, that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies. For those items permitted to be inoperative under §91.213(d)(2) of this chapter, that person shall place a placard, that meets the aircraft's airworthiness certification regulations, on each inoperative instrument and the cockpit control of each item of inoperative equipment, marking it “Inoperative,” and shall add the items to the signed and dated list of discrepancies given to the owner or lessee.
 
And, Tom, before you say; But, the Sundowner doesn't have a MEL/MMEL, FAR 91.213 (d) has it covered:
(d) Except for operations conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) or (c) of this section, a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided—

(1) The flight operation is conducted in a—

(i) Rotorcraft, non-turbine-powered airplane, glider, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft, for which a master minimum equipment list has not been developed; or

(ii) Small rotorcraft, nonturbine-powered small airplane, glider, or lighter-than-air aircraft for which a Master Minimum Equipment List has been developed; and

(2) The inoperative instruments and equipment are not—

(i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated;

(ii) Indicated as required on the aircraft's equipment list, or on the Kinds of Operations Equipment List for the kind of flight operation being conducted;

(iii) Required by §91.205 or any other rule of this part for the specific kind of flight operation being conducted; or

(iv) Required to be operational by an airworthiness directive; and

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are—

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with §43.9 of this chapter; or

(ii) Deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft.
 
There was a Mooney M20G partnership for sale about the time I was looking. Dog Mooney, but still a 135 knot ship. Would have been way cheaper than buying one myself. But the airplane was tied up outside while hangars were available elsewhere, and it was covered in bird excrement and a mess. Clearly, no one was taking responsibility for keeping it nice. I passed, and am glad I did.
 
Update:
Annual is going to cost somewhere between $7,000 -$10,000 at this point.

Only $200 bucks of it forward of the firewall. A three-page laundry list of mostly smaller issues that need to be addressed.

Damn glad I have a few other folks to help pay for it!
 
What the ???

How long has this club been operating this plane?

You previously said the cash reserves were low and the @GRG55 Maintenance Kitty wasn't necessarily "purring."

Seems to me you guys have some thinking to do when the plane is back on-line and the checks are cleared to plan for this kind of stuff.
 
Ravioli said:
What the ???

How long has this club been operating this plane?

You previously said the cash reserves were low and the @GRG55 Maintenance Kitty wasn't necessarily "purring."

Seems to me you guys have some thinking to do when the plane is back on-line and the checks are cleared to plan for this kind of stuff.
Click to expand...

A group of lawyers started this club 30 years ago. 3 of the original 6 are still partners. They use "Pay-as-you- go, zero balance accounting" to avoid paying taxes.

Largely, it is almost all small issues deferred at previous annuals. The small stuff has now piled up into bigger stuff, most of it can be considered safety now. Some flight control stuff, gear, etc.
 
Seems like they use "pay as we find some new guy to screw over" accounting.

Don't get me wrong, lawyers are great when you need one. But who the hell is managing the books on a partnership with $7-10k annual on a $50k plane?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top