My checkride update

Tristar

Pattern Altitude
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Tristar
The initial CFI checkride admittedly is one of the hardest checkrides to pass but rightfully so. You're asking someone to sign his name off that you're competent enough to teach someone to fly. Thats a huge responsibility for both the CFI candidate as well as the examiner. But this can be a huge learning experience as well.

I will start off by saying no I did not get through the ground portion of my CFI checkride thus was unable to do the flight too but before you go "aww, I'm sorry" let me explain.

I woke up at 6:30 this morning to have the airplane and me down at Wiley Post by 8. My examiner got caught in a traffic jam so we didnt get to start until 9.

The first things we go over are pretty basic to every checkride, paperwork. So we went over 8710s, all the 100hrs, annuals, transponder checks, ADs, etc and how long they're good for. What are the required instruments for flight (TOMATOFLAAMES). He was really impressed with my written grades of 100 and 87.

Next was FOI. I actually did great on that. For those who are wondering, the examiner picks and chooses what he wants to test you over. If you're better at the fundamentals of learning than the teaching process, he sticks with the fundamentals of learning (REEPIR, characteristics of learning), the other required portion is instructor professionalism. Thats easy enough to answer because you just ask yourself, "what would you define as a professional?" Well they have to act like one. So basically this means wear something appropriate, don't use foul language, do your research, etc. That's it! FOI is done. Task 1 done.

Next was Technical Subject areas. We did aeromedical factors first. The DE tends to make scenarios with this such as "if I lost an arm and I came up to you and wanted to fly, can I?" The correct answer is you would be happy to teach him however he needs to go to an AME to get a medical. It is not your right to tell him he can't, you just smashed his hopes if you did. So the AME will probably give him a SODA. SODA is the key word. Next was "what is hypoxia and its symptoms." That was easy enough from the altitude chamber experience. Cyanosis, dizziness, fat people get tired quicker (that was his, ;) ). Then, "what is spatial disorientation." He also asked me about scuba diving. I didn't have to go into what causes the bends just what does the FAA say the recommended times are for decompression/non decompression stop dives (24, 12 hrs above 8,000 ). If you notice, the DE doesn't go down the list but more picks and chooses his questions from each topic. If you're doing good, he moves on.

The next big topic was Principals of flight, or in his terms, "how does an airplane fly?" So I drew out on the board an airplane with "lift weight, thrust and drag" and said I would describe each individually. Lift was the first. I stated Newtons laws that were the biggest factors (1st and 3rd) then I explained Bernoulli's as well as drawing the pinched tube, explaining "increase in velocity, decrease in pressure" I cut the pinched tube in half to demonstrate that its actually a wing. The examiner was impressed with my correlation with that. Then I made the airfoil bigger and explained how newtons laws effect the wing with downwash as well as air deflected downwards, and of course bernoulli all in one drawing. This easily demonstrates how Newton and Bernoulli are all working together. He really liked this. He briefly asked me what kind of flaps are on my airplane (slot type) and what the purpose of flaps are (increase in descent without an increase in airspeed). I was also the first recent candidate to mention that they help with takeoff as well. I was not asked to describe drag, weight, or thrust. This concluded technical subjects.

We moved onto task 3. This is the one that got me. The questions were, "what are the characteristics of an AFT and forward CG." I rattled out a few but I couldn't think of enough of them. I answered the questions for Max gross CG okay but I got the forward CG mixed with max which confused me on forward. He also gave me a scenario question that, "if we the weather was 600 scattered and 4 miles, can we go?" I said no, and then changed my answer. Unfortunately I defined scattered as broken. The one that I absolutely knew better but didn't think to review was what was the most important Vspeeds. I got Vne, Vno, and Vfe. So huge lesson of the day is they're not kidding when they say, "look something up if you don't know it." However, no one defines how much you can look things up and the DE is not going to tell you whether to look something up or not or how much. If you get to the point where he's not happy, it's a quick and automatic "sorry, you're not up to PTS standards." It's frustrating since I was doing great up to that point but just hit a bump and didn't think to look it up.

The Brighter note:
The flight home was absolutely beautiful, I dont think I've seen it that nice in a very long time. No winds, clear skies, 40 minute flight where I could see stillwater half way home. It made the day better.

When I got back, my flight instructor was there so we talked through what I did. I assumed that I hadn't even gotten halfway through my oral since IMO we didn't talk about as much as I had expected. But we looked through the PTS and realized that I didn't have much left at all. The DE called my instructor while I was there. I couldn't believe what he said. The DE said I was a top notch candidate, had great communication skills, I really knew my stuff and would be an awesome CFI and quote, "a great addition to our staff down here." I was thinking, "wow!" He said that I just got caught on a few things that I should have looked up but didn't and that all I needed to do was go over the things that I missed and come back for the rest of the ground and the flight. Apparently that's a huge thing to get a bunch of compliments like that straight from the DE. So although I didn't get what I had hoped for meaning the CFI ticket, I did get some great compliments to work off of and just try again.

We decided that our course of action was to take a few days off and relax and let me work on some homework I need to catch up on. I'll call later this week and we'll meet up to work on the things that I missed and probably a flight to keep things sharp. After that, we'll try again.
 
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Tristan - thank you for posting your update. I've learned a lot from your posts and was wondering how things were going for you today.
I know from your posts that you value the "process" (and not just the outcome) - from that, I know that you will 1) make the most of this learning experience; and 2) make an awesome instructor.
 
Hello Tristar,

That reads to me like you will be a great CFI! My opinion only, but I just think you were trying to do too much too quickly. Good to have a few more fun breaks in there now and then. I am sure you will breeze through next time. Hope to meet you at Gastons.

Rick
 
Tristan, I know you must be disappointed but it's a good learning experience. That's what they always say, anyway. :dunno: Unfortunately we sometimes don't get what we want the first time but persistence is the key. I'm sure you'll do better next time. :yes:
 
Nice write up. Sounds like you'll be a CFI soon!! I know when I was doing my PP oral that it felt strange to grab for the book or some other prop for fear of being stopped right there but I never was.
 
I have to say that my PP oral was more in depth than my CFI oral and I passed my private. Seems strange but in private they really nail sectionals and the FARs. In CFI, its more about the airplane and how it works as well as teaching. Although granted every oral is different.
 
Everything in life - weather it be good or bad - ends up being a learning experience for us.

Even the DE himself said it Tristar - you'll make a great instructor. And that came straight from the DE! You should be proud of the compliments you received.. I know I would be!

By the way you carry yourself on here, I have no doubt that getting back up on the horse won't be an issue here. Congrats on your progress thus far and don't sweat it.. afterall, CFI is probably the toughest ticket the FAA issues. Take some time, RELAX, and give it another shot. I wish you the best of luck!

Oh.. and thanks a bunch for the details on your ground portion, every bit helps me in what to expect 2 weeks from now on my checkride.
 
Tristan,

Thanks for sharing the details of your experiences today--I always enjoy your write-ups, and learn something from them... you're already an 'instructor', even if the ticket doesn't yet say "CFI"; it will soon!

Oh, and one more thing. When the DE called, you didn't "get a compliment"--you EARNED it! Can't wait to hear the next write up!
 
thanks for the report tristan. always nice to de-brief regardless of the outcome. you'll rock it next time around!
 
Tristan, we are all rooting for you. We know you can nail it the next time. You go, girl!

-Skip
 
Maybe my next flight review, Tristan, you can administer. You'll be ready a year and 2 months early, too.

You'll kick booty!
 
You are staying positive. That is the right thing to do. That certificate has an extremely hard pass rate. I am glad. It needs to be. I am proud of how far you have come and so should you. Congradulations on how well you did!
 
Hello Tristar,

That reads to me like you will be a great CFI! My opinion only, but I just think you were trying to do too much too quickly. Good to have a few more fun breaks in there now and then. I am sure you will breeze through next time. Hope to meet you at Gastons.

Rick
Unlike the end of course where we had breaks every 30min to an hour, the only break he mentioned was for lunch. However I'm sure if I needed to use the bathroom, he wouldn't have complained.
 
Maybe my next flight review, Tristan, you can administer. You'll be ready a year and 2 months early, too.

You'll kick booty!
You'd spoil me with a flight review in the Bo? I'm liking this already!
 
Sounds like a good learning experience, which a checkride should always be, IMO. Not that the examiner should "teach", but there's always opportunity to learn things.

Just to pick nits...was it a DE or an FAA examiner?

Fly safe!

David
 
Tristan, it sounds like you did great! Yeah, you stumbled, but have already learned what to do next time (hint: look it up! :)) and all who know you realize that you're a great instructor!
 
I completely agree Brent, instructor is a very important rating. You're not just flying yourself or taking passengers, you're teaching someone who doesn't even know what an aileron is. There's nothing wrong with that but it does put the responsibility of safety as well as correct teaching all on my shoulders. I don't think instructors quite get the thanks they deserve at times, this is hard work! I'm not complaining though, I really want to be a good instructor.

FYI, I've heard that the pass rate is around 50% for CFI. No stress for everybody, its just serious business. But let's "emphasis the positive," flying is still fun!
 
Tristar, try to remember that CFI is not about flying. It's about knowing where to find the source document, It's about teaching.

Your first reaction if you're not hitting it, is, "I know right where to find it...."
Some of use even tabbed our AC-8083 so we could find things in a hurry. The AIM, too.

Hang in there.
 
Sounds like a good learning experience, which a checkride should always be, IMO. Not that the examiner should "teach", but there's always opportunity to learn things.

Just to pick nits...was it a DE or an FAA examiner?

Fly safe!

David

Okay now its your turn to teach. It was actually an FAA examiner. The FAA has an office at Wiley Post, ok where I did my checkride. What is the difference between an FAA examiner and a DE other than $600?
 
Okay now its your turn to teach. It was actually an FAA examiner. The FAA has an office at Wiley Post, ok where I did my checkride. What is the difference between an FAA examiner and a DE other than $600?
A late thought. From how your description is written, I suspect when he asked a question, you launched.

The right approach is to query a bit as to which direction he wants to launch, have him respond, then feed him a bit, and see where he wants to go.

What you want to do is answer as a consultant would, rather than open fire with a 0.50 cal machine gun. Remember, the guy asking the questions has many many more answers than you could possibly.

If you know an area solidly, be especially slow to develop that area. Otherwise he'll sense a BRICK WALL of knowledge and rapidly move on.

As it turned out, on my CFI basic oral, the Insepctor asked me to teach a 10 minute lesson on high altitude flight. I asked, High altitude as in 38,000 feet, or high altitude as in 16,000 feet (e.g, GA). He responded the latter. I never in the whole discussion let on that I had a federal appointment in that very area. I turned it into a discussion not only of medical aspects, but of planning into the final 20% of an aircraft's capability. This went on for 25 minutes.

Be cagey. He only found out after the 1.1 flight when he asked me for my pilot cert. Right behind it was my AME appointment card.
 
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A late thought. From how your description is written, I suspect when he asked a question, you launched.

The right approach is to query a bit as to which direction he wants to launch, have him respond, then feed him a bit, and see where he wants to go.

What you want to do is answer as a consultant would, rather than open fire with a 0.50 cal machine gun. Remember, the guy asking the questions has many many more answers than you could possibly.

Reminds me of point #14 in Captain Ron's Excellent Checkride Advice:

Ron said:
14. Avoid this conversation:
Examiner - Q: Do you have a pencil?
Applicant - A: I have a #2, a mechanical, a red one...
Examiner - Q: Do you have a pencil?
Applicant - A: I also have an assortment of pens, and some highlighters...
Examiner - Q: Do you have a pencil?
Applicant - A: Yes.
Examiner - Thank you.

One of the hardest things to do when you’re nervous and pumped up is to shut up and answer the question. I've watched people talk themselves into a corner by incorrectly answering a question that was never asked, or by adding an incorrect appendix to the correct answer to the question that was. If the examiner wants more, he'll tell you.

Be cagey.

Well said!
 
I'm signed up for the CFI refresher seminar in 3 weeks. Based on the attendance two years ago, most of the attendees are geezer-goats like me who have forgotten more than theyll ever know and were never as good as they used to be.

I'm going to read the stuff on your oral and ask how many of them could answer the questions. Or even hear them. Or understand them if they did. Or remember what they were supposed to be talking about. Or looking up. In the book they forgot to bring with them to the oral. Because they couldn't find it. Even though it was right there last night. Or left it in the car. Or on the workbench in the garage when they put down their coffee to open the door. Never mind, sounds like you have it figured out.
 
Why, of all the mean-spirited things! You send that examiner our way, Tristan - and we will get together a posse of your POA brethren to set him straight!
 
It sounds like ya got off to a good start and set a great tone with the guy. On top of that, you must feel a huge burden lifted with regard to your knowledge.

Go knock out the rest and get that ticket. You've worked hard and deserve it.
 
Haha! Troy that sounds like my explanation after he asked what do I do if I have someone come up to me with no arm. He just wanted "SODA." I'm thinking, "yea but, theres more to it!"
 
Bruce,

I encountered something similar although he didn't ask me to teach 10 minutes worth. During my ground, I created lessons that were based on everything in the PTS. So when he asked me for oxygen requirements, I gave him everything up to 15,000 and that was it. In reality, I know up to 40,000. It's one of those, "only say just enough and if he wants more, give him more." It seriously works. It's also interesting learning how to say things correctly such as my original statement was, "if you're above 12,500 longer than 30 minutes, you must have oxygen, above 14,000 all required crew must be on oxygen at all times and obove 15,000 passengers must have oxygen available to them" He said, "so you're telling me that I can fly at 18,000 ft as long as its less than 30 minutes?" "Well, no, thats between 12,500 and 14,000" "yes, but thats not what you said." I guess I assumed too much when I said, "above 14,000 all required crew must be on oxygen at all times" and figured people could subtract.
 
I'm signed up for the CFI refresher seminar in 3 weeks. Based on the attendance two years ago, most of the attendees are geezer-goats like me who have forgotten more than theyll ever know and were never as good as they used to be.

I'm going to read the stuff on your oral and ask how many of them could answer the questions. Or even hear them. Or understand them if they did. Or remember what they were supposed to be talking about. Or looking up. In the book they forgot to bring with them to the oral. Because they couldn't find it. Even though it was right there last night. Or left it in the car. Or on the workbench in the garage when they put down their coffee to open the door. Never mind, sounds like you have it figured out.
Just make sure and give them credit if they brought a current FAR/AIM. :)
 
Be cagey.

I have a different perspective. I had my instrument checkride a few weeks ago, and I wanted to fail. Well, technically, I wanted to pass -- but I regarded the examiner as quality control -- if they could find a hole in my skills or knowledge which might affect my ability to fly safely, I wanted them to find it and fail me.

I'd rather learn what I don't know on a test than in the air, any day of the week. As a result, I was more than open about sharing what I knew on the test, and hoping he would find things I haven't learned yet.

Chris
 
Okay now its your turn to teach. It was actually an FAA examiner. The FAA has an office at Wiley Post, ok where I did my checkride. What is the difference between an FAA examiner and a DE other than $600?
Your first Instructor checkride has to be with the FAA, not a DE. Any additional instructor ratings (II, MEI) can be with a DE. From a content and conduct of the checkride perspective, they should be the same, but with the DE there is that minor detail of $$$.
Your first instructor certificate doesn't have to be a CFI either - you can get your CFII first (with the FAA), and add a CFI later (with a DE) for instance.
 
Well, its too bad Tristan, but take this for every bit of heartfelt meaning I can put into text:

You obviously have the right attitude, because you recognized what you did well, and what you need to do better. I've seen people fail checkrides and blame the DE. You didn't do that.

Bravo!
 
Your first Instructor checkride has to be with the FAA, not a DE.
Not true. The FAA can assign a DPE for the initial CFI checkride. You simply can't go pick one on your own.

I'm about to take my CFI-SP checkride. It'll be with a DPE - not only because that's who the FAA assigned, but also because she's the only examiner who does CFI-SP checkrides in the region, period. Not even the FAA does those here.
 
Hey Tris,

To keep yourself tuned up, why don't you post all those memory gouges you included in your first post and others you can remember. I can remember the one about POTATOPASTE or whatever, but not the others.
 
It's all technicalities. For your initial CFI, whichever that might be, you're supposed to go to an FAA examiner. Its more quality control for them. I dont mind it because it saves me $600. However, one problem we're running across is they don't have enough time for us. Think of how many people are graduating around here, we have Oklahoma State university, University of Oklahoma, Southern Oklahoma State, Spartan Aeronautics, and many others all in Oklahoma with aviation programs! The FAA is big, but its still difficult to squeeze all of those applicants into the last month before graduation. For this reason, sometimes the FAA gives the local DEs permission to lighten the load...for their own cost of $600 of course. This is especially true when time is of the essence.

I get to think of it differently though. For our program, completing the CFI EOC (end of course) ride which we fly with our chief instructor also completes every aviation requirement I have at Oklahoma State. So now although I still have to finish the checkride, I can walk across the stage with my Bachelors in Aviation Sciences in May!
 
Wayne that would be a long list. You can make an acronym out of about anything. I haven't heard of POTATOPASTE. TOMATO FLAAMES and FLAPS are the VFR day and night equipment requirements you find in 91.205. REEPIR is the Laws of learning for the FOI. If you want an extensive list, there are a great number of resources out there on the internet. If you cannot find what you're looking for let me know and I'll help you but my acronym list is not on a PDF document. BTW, not everyone recommends it but those ASA oral books are pretty good.
 
Wayne that would be a long list. You can make an acronym out of about anything. I haven't heard of POTATOPASTE. TOMATO FLAAMES and FLAPS are the VFR day and night equipment requirements you find in 91.205. REEPIR is the Laws of learning for the FOI. If you want an extensive list, there are a great number of resources out there on the internet. If you cannot find what you're looking for let me know and I'll help you but my acronym list is not on a PDF document. BTW, not everyone recommends it but those ASA oral books are pretty good.

Tristan, Wayne was just looking for an excuse to type "POTATOPASTE."
 
Sounds like it could be his new nickname, :D. I think TOMATOFLAAMES is cooler. It's more interesting to picture having a flaming tomato, think of the possibilities! POTATOPASTE sounds more like what Jesse left in his fridge for months! :rofl:
 
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Shhh! Just checking to see if she was paying attention.


Wayne, Tristan may be a pretty face, but she is most certainly not *just* another pretty face.

I am confident, however, that she is the smallest pilot I know.
 
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