MV-22B Osprey down, SoCal, Fatal

[Velocity173]

The two bolded sentences I quoted contradict each other, as most hospital facilities have the bare minimum for an LZ.

Not pad to pad. At 16,000 lbs and 60 ft diameter, that would eliminate most elevated hospital pads. But there are plenty of times we go to hospitals that don’t have pads or the pad is occupied and we land in the parking lot or an open field next to the hospital. In that case, it would be easy to set up a large enough LZ at the hospital “door.” Now, some scene sites like below, they’re not fitting in there.

 

[Bell206]

as most hospital facilities have the bare minimum for an LZ.

As noted, operationally the 609 would replace the fixed-wing IFT vs the rotor side IFTs. However, even that is doubtful at their supposed price tag of $30M a copy. You could buy 5 PC-12s for that and not to mention the huge difference in DOCs.

 

[Velocity173]

EMS needs a coaxial pusher. All the benefits of a helicopter and speed of a fixed wing without the restrictions of a tilt rotor.

 

[Albany Tom]

I'm not a helicopter guy, but I think part of the problem might be the lights in most parking lots. When we had the tropical storms come through SE NY state a few years ago, they staged supply flights at a state run ski center, in part because the ski center was too cheap to have lights for the parking lots. (Belleayre Mtn) So they were open enough to fly in Chinooks. From talking with the pilots, they said can't land in most lots because of the lights. Betting that if they can't fit in, the Osprey can't either.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm not a helicopter guy, but I think part of the problem might be the lights in most parking lots. When we had the tropical storms come through SE NY state a few years ago, they staged supply flights at a state run ski center, in part because the ski center was too cheap to have lights for the parking lots. (Belleayre Mtn) So they were open enough to fly in Chinooks. From talking with the pilots, they said can't land in most lots because of the lights. Betting that if they can't fit in, the Osprey can't either.

Lights as far as obstructions or lights affecting NVG? Obstruction wise, they’re no different than anything else. You have SOP (mil) / GOM (civ) criteria for LZ size so if it’s within policy, they’re good to go. NVG wise, lights really aren’t a problem. Personally, I like the darker the better but flood lights generally don’t washout the NVGs.

If something like the AW609 entered in service, it would be similar to the adaptations of the V-22. Not sure about the exhaust of the AW609 but if it’s like the V-22, it’ll melt pavement. So, you install a metal or concrete pad in the parking lot. If that’s not practical you land in a grass field. The hospital I serve does the exact thing with NG Black Hawks transporting patients to our hospital. Our pad is only rated to 12,000 lbs, therefore they have to land in a grass field right by the hospital. Not optimal but better than landing miles away at an airport.

This is all theoretical of course but if something like an AW609 (it wouldn’t) entered service in air ambulance, they could adapt LZs and procedures for it. But as stated above, no air ambulance provider could afford such an aircraft.

 

[3393RP]

While I realize the downwash from an AW609 won't be this bad, this may be illustrative of an issue that must be dealt with.

https://youtube.com/shorts/30tInboo9j4?feature=share

 

[Velocity173]

While in realize the downwash from an AW609 won't be this bad, this may be illustrative of an issue that must be dealt with.

https://youtube.com/shorts/30tInboo9j4?feature=share

I believe someone was injured in that. IP in our company used to fly Ospreys and he talked about all the restrictions they have with LZ size, downwash, heat damage etc. A lot more to think about than in his previous H-46 ride.

 

[Albany Tom]

Lights as far as obstructions or lights affecting NVG? Obstruction wise, they’re no different than anything else. You have SOP (mil) / GOM (civ) criteria for LZ size so if it’s within policy, they’re good to go. NVG wise, lights really aren’t a problem. Personally, I like the darker the better but flood lights generally don’t washout the NVGs.

If something like the AW609 entered in service, it would be similar to the adaptations of the V-22. Not sure about the exhaust of the AW609 but if it’s like the V-22, it’ll melt pavement. So, you install a metal or concrete pad in the parking lot. If that’s not practical you land in a grass field. The hospital I serve does the exact thing with NG Black Hawks transporting patients to our hospital. Our pad is only rated to 12,000 lbs, therefore they have to land in a grass field right by the hospital. Not optimal but better than landing miles away at an airport.

This is all theoretical of course but if something like an AW609 (it wouldn’t) entered service in air ambulance, they could adapt LZs and procedures for it. But as stated above, no air ambulance provider could afford such an aircraft.

Lights as obstructions. Because there weren't any light poles, it was basically a couple of open fields. They were flying daytime only, no NVGs. The parking lot was gravel/rock/dirt, so no harm on melting it, as long as the rocks didn't kick up and hurt anything. They were a good bunch of guys. They flew in food, and also worked to do road surveys to identify washed out roads, because they could report the GPS coordinates back to state DOT. That was a big concern, as at the time there was a danger of going around a curve going through the Catskills, and not having a road when you got around it. When one of the pilots heard I was headed back to Albany via car, he went out of his way to warn me about the conditions. Earlier we'd tried to help him get the second engine in his Blackhawk started, so he could get back home for the evening.

 

[Bell206]

this may be illustrative of an issue that must be dealt with

This is an issue already dealt with in various scenarios for the same reasons. Unfortunately, what happens is a larger helicopter enters the picture and the previous precautions are not good enough. In the UK, the coast guard switched to S-92s and on one urban landing area the rotorwash blew down 2 elderly women killing one. Never had that problem with the S-61s. There were studies done in the GOM back when the 609 first looked viable and the issues were more on the rotor footprint/landing weight than the rotorwash force.

 

[3393RP]

I believe someone was injured in that. IP in our company used to fly Ospreys and he talked about all the restrictions they have with LZ size, downwash, heat damage etc. A lot more to think about than in his previous H-46 ride.

This is an issue already dealt with in various scenarios for the same reasons. Unfortunately, what happens is a larger helicopter enters the picture and the previous precautions are not good enough. In the UK, the coast guard switched to S-92s and on one urban landing area the rotorwash blew down 2 elderly women killing one. Never had that problem with the S-61s. There were studies done in the GOM back when the 609 first looked viable and the issues were more on the rotor footprint/landing weight than the rotorwash force.

I really appreciate the contributions our rotary wing qualified members provide. I have a decent understanding of the basics, having received twenty-some hours of dual instruction in a Bell 206L and passing the written exam. However, that was a long time ago.

The detail you guys and others provide give critical insight to helicopter ops and helps explain the how and why of incidents and accidents. Thanks for that.