Must Safety Pilot Have Complex Endorsement?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by MBDiagMan, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. mkosmo

    mkosmo Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    A bit of a tangent... but has anybody here actually bothered to log SIC in that case? I just don't see the value in putting it in my logbook unless it was something cool and unusual that I would want to document for the purposes of storytelling.
     
  2. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Don't hold back Ed. How do you really feel?

    And welcome back.
    John
     
  3. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I've never logged SIC. If I'm not (logging) PIC or getting instruction received, it doesn't go in.
     
  4. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If only there were a link to such an FAQ.
     
  5. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It was Congress, not the FAA, that made that rule. The FAA had to follow the language of the statute exactly in order to meet the deadline in the statute; otherwise, they would have had to go through the NPRM notice-and-comment process, which would have seriously delayed its implementation. From the first answer in the FAQ:

    "The FAA did not develop these requirements. The requirements are from the U.S.
    Congress, which enacted the FAA Extension, Safety, and Security Act of 2016 (PL 114-
    190) (FESSA) on July 15, 2016. Section 2307 of FESSA, Medical Certification of
    Certain Small Aircraft Pilots, directed the FAA to “issue or revise regulations to ensure
    that an individual may operate as pilot in command of a covered aircraft” if the pilot and
    aircraft meet certain prescribed conditions as outlined in FESSA. The FAA regulations
    implement the provisions in § 2307 of FESSA."

     
  6. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    The "they" is referring to the safety pilot. The safety pilot can neither act as nor log PIC in a complex aircraft without a complex endorsement. Therefore, his statement is completely true.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  7. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    I saw quite a few logbooks with significant SIC time in Arrows back when I was instructing near a college aviation program.

    Didn't think much of it at the time, either, based on those pilots' ability (or lack thereof) to fly a complex airplane.
     
  8. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The link was included in 20,000+ posts of mine until I realized it wasn't being used because the same questions kept coming up over and over, and I said screw it. If you're too stupid to read, you're too stupid to educate. (the general you, not the personal you)

    As far as Congress/FAA. The FAA could have easily had Congress word it correctly. I still place the blame squarely on the FAA.
     
  9. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Basic Med can be used for safety piloting, but only if the Basic Med safety pilot is PIC too.

    Basic Med was the add-on, and a lot of the other regs still refer to medical requirements.
    Maybe, someday real soon now, the other regs will be re-written to simplify things. Or, maybe, Basic Med might be re-written so it isn't limited to PIC roles.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_68-1A.pdf

    >>
    5.2.2 Status of Required Flightcrew Members

    5.2.2.1

    ...

    A pilot acting as a safety pilot per part 91, § 91.109(c), however, would be a required pilot flightcrew member by regulation rather than a passenger. Section 91.109(c) provides that no person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless the other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown. Because a safety pilot is a required pilot flightcrew member, the safety pilot is required to hold a valid and appropriate medical certificate in accordance with § 61.3(a). BasicMed privileges can only be exercised by a person acting as safety pilot when that person is also acting as PIC. BasicMed privileges do not extend to anyone other than the person acting as PIC.
    <<
     
  10. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The personal me would find it convenient not to have to search through 20,000+ old posts to find the link when I need it. Also, wasn't that link in the signature line of those posts? Deleting something from your sig line deletes it from the sig line of all your previous posts on this forum as well.
     
  11. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, once. SIC time is still good towards total time, and I didn't yet have 1500 hours at that point so total time was still worth something.

    I did not misquote him, and I did not change anything. I clicked "Quote". In fact, if you go back to the post I quoted, it still says HP there too, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about.
     
  12. mkosmo

    mkosmo Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I have no professional aspirations, so I didn't even think about using it for TT.
     
  13. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Which is why I used the past tense, of was and not the present tense of is. It was around for almost 10 years, and easily discovered. When I realized absolutely no one was looking it up, before asking a stupid question (OK, there are not stupidquestions, just stupid people that ask questions) about logging PIC, I said eff it. A sticky was requested of the mods numerous times, along with a sticky for this thread but we see how well management listened.
     
  14. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I didn't either, but I figured that it might be nice to get higher certificates for fun someday.

    I got the commercial for fun. I've used it exactly twice. I was going to get the ATP, but they changed the rules and made it prohibitively expensive.
     
  15. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Which does no good when someone wants/needs to go shoot approaches in a Comanche/Bonanza/182/Toga/Lance/etc...and the only people available only have BasicMed and no HP and/or complex endorsement, or they aren't passenger current. The FAA could have easily had congress word it to say something to the effect of "...BasicMed is an appropriate substitute for third class medical in all instances where a third class medical required provided the aircraft is under 6000, operated under 18000 feet..." etc. But no, because, well, the FAA.
     
  16. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    I was mistaken, he was the one that changed "complex" to "HP". Still does not change the fact that the "they" is referring to the safety pilot. The safety pilot can only log PIC if they act as PIC, and in order to act as PIC you need to meet all the requirements of doing so.
     
  17. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    They did? Its been a while since I've paid attention. What changed?
     
  18. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Thanks for the link.
     
  19. labbadabba

    labbadabba Pattern Altitude

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    Correct, I stated HP, I meant complex. Either way the reasoning is the same. For a SP you must have the appropriate Category and Class so that's fine but if the SP wants to log it as PIC time they will need the endorsement for complex or HP if in a HP or complex aircraft. You can't be a PIC of a complex or HP plane without the endorsement. Seems fairly cut and dry to me.
     
  20. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe, having been a pilot for 15+ years and having been on online aviation forums for longer than that, I'm a bit sensitive to anything that brings up these arguments again, but if you had said it the way you said it here the first time, I wouldn't have made a peep. Your first statement, taken on its own, can easily perpetuate the myth that you have to be endorsed to log PIC, period.
     
  21. labbadabba

    labbadabba Pattern Altitude

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    None taken. Safety pilot and PIC debates are why I became a pilot in the first place.
     
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  22. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Now, before taking the written, you have to take the "ATP-CTP" course, with 30 hours of ground school and 10 hours in a Level C or higher sim representing a multiengine turbine airplane with a MTOW of >40,000 pounds. From what I've heard, that sim time isn't cheap (like $1500/hr), not to mention the class plus sim time means probably taking a week of vacation to do it.

    That kind of time and money puts it well outside the realm of things I would do for "fun".
     
  23. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    The CTP is about 5k, let the employer pay for it.
     
  24. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What employer? That's the problem, you can't do the ATP just for fun and to improve your skills any more. I fly for myself, not anyone else.

    It does sound like it's a lot cheaper than it was predicted to be, though. Pan Am International Flight Academy has it for $4K. I remember that the initial estimates were for it to be in the $30K-$40K range.

    I did take the written a few days before the rule change, but I wasn't able to get enough AMEL time in time to do the checkride. The only twin for rent here locally is $450/hr. :(
     
  25. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    You could always get the single-engine ATP...doesn’t require the CTP course.
     
  26. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    You can still do it, you just can't get the plastic. YOu can get the plastic for SEL, and do whatever you want with a CFI, or a DPE acting as an instructor.

    I didn't have the total time, so I didn't take the written during the 2 year grace period.

    If there is no employer, than there isn't much use in learning the CTP stuff. Most of that would be covered by insurance requirements if you were flying something big, wouldn't it?
     
  27. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Not really...here’s what’s required in the CTP course...
    It’s all covered to some degree in initial type training, but when it has to get crammed into a systems course that’s pretty much filled up with “systems stuff”, it’s pretty tough to get in depth on any of it.

    Things like “turbine engines” used to be taught more “on the job”...you had a significant amount of time in the right seat (hours and/or years) to gain knowlege from the guys next to you, as well as reading a few years’ worth of Pro Pilot articles in the pilot lounge. That’s decreased tremendously.

    Overall, I think if it was taken seriously by the instructors, the CTP course would be a very good thing. I’m not hearing much that indicates that many of the programs’ instructors are doing that, however. One of these years I’m going to get my company to let me audit our CTP course, so at least I have a really good idea what I can expect from the applicants. The new ATP ACS draft looks like it’s going to require significantly more on the oral for that stuff, too.
     
  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I thought he was correct, in context - the safety pilot. Just to be sure we are on the same page.

    The private pilot flying may log PIC without the endorsements. He is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he is rated for under 61.51(e)(1)(i). Nothing else required.

    But the safety pilot, the required pilot not flying, logs PIC time under a different subsection, 61.51(e)(1)(iii), which requires the safety pilot to be acting as PIC in order to log PIC time. And, in order to act as PIC, a pilot must be qualified to do so, which includes applicable endorsements. It is one of the times "acting" and "logging" intersect.
     
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  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Stupid but sadly accurate. This obvious dumbetry was a combination of the way the statute was written and the FAA/DOT decision to adopt it almost verbatim rather than writing its own.
     
  30. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    It's a dumb rule, not a dumb FAQ answer. The answer is almost completely accurate, right down to explaining that the reason is the statutory language. The only thing missing is an explanation that "we didn't want to go through the NPRM process to clean up this idiotic language", but this being the FAA, they weren't going to say that anyway.
     
  31. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It counts toward FAA total flight time requirements, such as

    §61.129 Aeronautical experience.
    (a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

    (1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.​

    Not surprising to see it used in a college aviation program.

     
  32. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think you misunderstood DMS's statement. He's talking about a safety pilot. If a safety pilot is PIC, he needs the endorsement and he can log PIC time.
    If the safety pilot is not PIC (not required), than they can't log PIC because they don't fit any of the 61.51(e) requirements (sole manipulator, PIC in a multipilot op, instructor, ...).
     
  33. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Holy Toledo! :eek: If/when I bought a plane I always figured I'd do the ATP just to do it. Guess it'll have to be single engine if it happens at all.
     
  34. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    That's very easy to do when a correct reading hinges on a single word or phrase, in this case, "safety pilot". The fault is not entirely on the reader's side. I was guilty of it too, over on the Red Board, when I said that you can't do the physical exam as a consultation before the AME enters the MedXPress code into the system. Cap'n Ron went after me on that even though he agrees with my point, saying that you can certainly do a consultation prior to the live exam. The point of contention was really the word "the" (as in THE physical exam), and I have to admit that I was being a bit cryptic.

    Same thing here, I think. DMS's statement was factually correct, but it only applies to the safety pilot in his role as safety pilot, and that distinction could easily be missed in a casual reading.
     
  35. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    My statements all had the words "safety pilot" in them. Plus the thread title is "Must Safety Pilot Have Complex Endorsement?"
     
  36. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Yeah, checking back, *yours* did, sorry. The unclear statement was by a different poster, something to the effect that without an endorsement, "they" can't log PIC in a complex aircraft. True in context, but not as a general statement.
     
  37. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

    I wouldn’t want to be PIC of any plane I couldn’t PIC on my own.
     
  38. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    If the reason you can't be PIC on your own is an FAA reg, that's automatic. But it's a good policy even if there are non-FAA reasons..
     
  39. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You can also fly a ultralight with zero training.

    Thing is people who need rules to tell them obvious things are why some people need rules
     
  40. labbadabba

    labbadabba Pattern Altitude

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    Again, my bad... I'll more clearerer next time.