Must.....do......right.....thing.....

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
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Jan 26, 2007
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Groveport, OH
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Display name:
David
Here I am at 8:25AM EST and its cloudy. Doing pattern work with my student today at 11:00AM and the current ceiling is OVC012 at the airport and it looks solid around my place. The temptation is to fly it anyway but I know as a CFI, I must set the proper example and be legal for cloud clearance in the Class E. Student is just about to solo so I dfinitely don't want to set him up to get busted either and would never let that happen in my power.

ITS KILLING ME! But, I will do the right thing and wait a while for it to get higher, hopefully, and then give it up if necessary. Another 300 feet would do it.

Anybody else ever get into this situation and feel the pressure? Doing the right thing is always the good thing to do. Not giving into temptation is the hard thing to do.

David
 
Are you always so conflicted adhering to regulations?
 
You are 100% doing the right thing.

Students learn by example as much as anything else. Pilots with a loosey goosey take on regs and procedures and Limitations often had the seed planted by watching their instructors.

I remember a case of an instructor showing a student a loop in a Diamond out of N. Perry in Hollywood, FL. That's just one egregious example of sowing the seed for future disregard for Limitations and Regs in a student's mind.

Anyway, good on you if you "do the right thing".
 
Captain said:
Are you always so conflicted adhering to regulations?
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Nah, just haven't flown in a couple weeks, so wanna get up in the air. Not a difficult decision for me but I know other pilots at same airport would just fly the pattern lower. I have done that once and was uncomfortable. I am for certain not going to do it with a student.

I take this responsibility very seriously in fact.

David

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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warthog1984 said:
Is it E around your airport? Because G mins are ridiculous if your TPA allows it.
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The E is a large area including a lot more than just the airport. I think it is large because of the C airspace nearby. That is the way it looks to me since it abuts the C. There is a lot of what you would think would be G airspace that is E on the surface.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/kvta

David
 
flhrci said:
The E is a large area including a lot more than just the airport. I think it is large because of the C airspace nearby. That is the way it looks to me since it abuts the C. There is a lot of what you would think would be G airspace that is E on the surface.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/kvta

David
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E to 700AGL, G below that. Bummer for the 1000AGL pattern.
 
warthog1984 said:
E to 700AGL, G below that. Bummer for the 1000AGL pattern.
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Yup, but its OVC015 20 miles away in the C and about another 50 miles west of there OVC1100. I am hoping at least for OVC015 soon. Going to go to the airport anyway for now. When my student gets the airspace lecture, I will give him the talk about scud running, but right now its off the table. Should be right after I sign him off for solo and during x-c/towered airport training.

David
 
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I have sat at FBOs trying to will the clouds up a few hundred feet.
Sometimes it works
 
Teach him about sitting around the FBO while waiting for the weather to get better.:lol: He'll get plenty of practice.
 
I cancelled an instrument cross-country lesson because there was a SIGMET for moderate turbulence below 18,000 feet. Clear blue sky....but I didn't want my student to thing that SIGMETs could be ignored.

Bob Gardner
 
Is it a towered airport? You could give him a lesson in using SVFR... :D
 
I think you're showing your student good decision making. CFIs that try to stretch the limits with their students are doing them a disservice.
 
I would change the lesson plan. Here's the perfect time to demonstrate IMC without the silly foggles. It's and entirely different experience. If the winds are benign, file IFR and take a trip to a nearby airport. Of course this assumes mins are high enough to land at your home drome.
 
You are experiencing go-for-it-itis. A close cousin to get=there-itis and just as deadly.

-Skip
 
This is one I'm on the conservative side of. Students will do what they see done by their CFI. Saying 'don't do this but...' Doesn't work. Teach them to enjoy burnt fbo coffee and vending machine snacks.
 
flhrci said:
...but I know as a CFI, I must set the proper example and be legal for cloud clearance in the Class E.
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Lots of pressures on an instructor in such a case, and while one would be most unusual not to feel the pressures to break the rules, it's good that you recognize your professional responsibility to teach adherence to those rules.
 
bobmrg said:
I cancelled an instrument cross-country lesson because there was a SIGMET for moderate turbulence below 18,000 feet. Clear blue sky....but I didn't want my student to thing that SIGMETs could be ignored.
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You sure that SIGMET wasn't for severe turbulence? Or maybe you just need another cup of morning joe?
c. SIGMET (WS)
1. A SIGMET advises of non-convective weather that is potentially hazardous to all aircraft. SIGMETs are unscheduled products that are valid for 4 hours. However, conditions that are associated with hurricanes are valid for 6 hours. Unscheduled updates and corrections are issued as necessary. In the conterminous U.S., SIGMETs are issued when the following phenomena occur or are expected to occur:
...
(b) Severe or extreme turbulence or clear air turbulence (CAT) not associated with thunderstorms.
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(b) AIRMET Tango describes moderate turbulence, sustained surface winds of 30 knots or greater, and/or nonconvective low-level wind shear.
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murphey said:
I would change the lesson plan. Here's the perfect time to demonstrate IMC without the silly foggles. It's and entirely different experience. If the winds are benign, file IFR and take a trip to a nearby airport. Of course this assumes mins are high enough to land at your home drome.
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Maybe he is flying a non FIKI airplane with freezing temps?
 
I assume before posting this you made the student make the decision. I actually agree with Henning, if he can't make up his mind meet him at the airport and make him or her stare at the clouds and make the decision, leading the decision toward "no go" with leading questions. You want those questions coming back to his or her mind someday in your wise voice when they're waiting s by themselves.
 
murphey said:
I would change the lesson plan. Here's the perfect time to demonstrate IMC without the silly foggles. It's and entirely different experience. If the winds are benign, file IFR and take a trip to a nearby airport. Of course this assumes mins are high enough to land at your home drome.
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Would love to but not instrument current. Can't afford to keep that up.

David
 
JasonM said:
Maybe he is flying a non FIKI airplane with freezing temps?
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That to. 172S in fact. One guy that was out about the time we were came back with ice on his elevator. he had been out for an hour or two before us when the ceilings were lower. He only flew VFR. When I got to the airport it was OVC017 and went to BKN017 and OVC070.

David
 
denverpilot said:
I assume before posting this you made the student make the decision. I actually agree with Henning, if he can't make up his mind meet him at the airport and make him or her stare at the clouds and make the decision, leading the decision toward "no go" with leading questions. You want those questions coming back to his or her mind someday in your wise voice when they're waiting s by themselves.
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Actually, I normally have them make the decision but the ceilings were trending upwards enough to go to the airport. My drive is around 50 mins and his about 30 so I usually call him ahead of time if there is any question and he and I make the decision on the phone.

But several times he has called me either the day before or day of and questioned the weather and made the decision not to go. He watches the weather a few days out prior to flying to see what is happening, like I do. This guy is living and breathing flying. He is reading and watching as much as he can. Wants to learn. He is one of those rare students CFI's hope for. 8.8 hours as of today with 7 flights and nearly ready to solo. Still landing a little rough today to solo but close.


David
 
I'd have him come to the airport and work the go/no go decision as ground school.

It is possible at some airports to get special VFR even if there isn't a tower by getting it from flight service.
 
flhrci said:
That has happened as the weather changed on us. This is Ohio in the winter. Weather subject to change a lot.

David
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I learned 30 minutes south, along the Ohio River. I flew once with my instructor in January, and solo once in February. Lessons began in early October, checkride in mid May. Knocked out all of my XC requirements in March.

You never know what the winter weather will be.

Good luck to your student, and kudos for teaching skills and judgement together.
 
Ron Levy said:
Lots of pressures on an instructor in such a case, and while one would be most unusual not to feel the pressures to break the rules, it's good that you recognize your professional responsibility to teach adherence to those rules.
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Must...say...right...thing...gnngh..
OK..while Ron's quote is prime, especially with new impressionable students, it is also our responsibility to go beyond prime when the time is right.
After solo, during x/c and pp prep, I consider it appropriate training to fly a traffic pattern at about 600'.
Usually that gets you into class g, clear of clouds and 1 mi vis.
1) for the student to be familiar with lowering wx conditions, to be proficient and legal.
2) to be able to continue training in these conditions.
3) to actually reference the circling minimums of the airport, and apply that pattern altitude.
Of course, the instructor must apply these procedures at the appropriate time to so the student is aware that it is not "normal", but "what if" training .
 
flhrci said:
Actually, I normally have them make the decision but the ceilings were trending upwards enough to go to the airport. My drive is around 50 mins and his about 30 so I usually call him ahead of time if there is any question and he and I make the decision on the phone.

But several times he has called me either the day before or day of and questioned the weather and made the decision not to go. He watches the weather a few days out prior to flying to see what is happening, like I do. This guy is living and breathing flying. He is reading and watching as much as he can. Wants to learn. He is one of those rare students CFI's hope for. 8.8 hours as of today with 7 flights and nearly ready to solo. Still landing a little rough today to solo but close.


David
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Good stuff. I still hear every instructor asking me something on every flight and I've been at it long enough to know its not like those other voices in my head. Heh heh. :) :) :)
 
flhrci said:
Wow! Unusual!

David
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Ground ref maneuvers are to be done at altitudes of 600 to 1000 agl .
Most students are only exposed to 1000' because that is the normal TPA .
But per the FTH, we should practice them at lower altitudes because some patterns are lower and gaining the ability/competency to remain clear of clouds in class g.
 
That's still VFR, albeit MVFR.

So flying a 1k pattern is a REG?

Yeah, not the best example to set.

Too bad you can't get him some IMC time, oh well, grab a beer and tell him to hit the books.
 
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