Multiple Nav / GPS Failures...Lesson Learned

[VWGhiaBob]

Be over-prepared for anything in the air is my motto. But sometimes even the over-preparation leaves you in challenging situations.

The flight: Van Nuys to Palm Springs using flight following and common GPS waypoints. Planned using Garmin 530, Foreflight (with same flight plan as b/u for situational awareness), with some VOR as back-up.

What happened: 2 of the three nav aids failed, leaving only dead reckoning and a not-that-well-planned VOR routing that had to be revised in the air using VORS in an unfamiliar plane. I had never been to Palm Springs before, so the visuals were unfamiliar.

The Garmin 530 database got corrupted on the ground, so it was useless other than controlling the radio. I decided to go anyway, given I had Foreflight for situational awareness and traditional VOR's.

Then, Foreflight failed after takeoff due not to Foreflight, but due to overheating the iPad. Yes, it came back 20 minutes later when it cooled off, but it was useless during the most difficult portions of the flight.

So there we were...in complex LA Airspace, with only our sectionals and a VOR plan that was sketchy at best. We spent the first few minutes figuring out the VOR's and planning a better routing, all while talking (as usual) to multiple ATC folks.

Lessons Learned:

* iPads are not certified for navigation for a reason...they don't pass the rigid temperature requirements that other instruments must meet

* S*&( happens; I know we've all heard it before, but sometimes it's easy for me to just rely on instruments that may or may not work

* If you rent a lot of planes like I do, even a good pilot can get confused; make sure you know the details of every plane

* When navigating complex airspace and talking to controllers, doing simultaneous route re-planning is possible, but challenging, especially without autopilot

No...we were probably not in extrene danger. But this was a lesson for me. I'm sure as I start IFR I'll have to handle in-flight re-routing in much more complex circumstances.

Still, this one was an eye-opener.

 

[Sac Arrow]

That's why I carry paper charts with me even though I have an Ipad. Happens.

 

[MAKG1]

Definitely, s**t happens.

I don't trust my tablet anywhere near as far as I can throw it. It's a ground planning tool. I've had multiple problems with it that ended up as non issues because I didn't trust it.

Most recently, the tablet crashed suddenly right before a handoff to Santa Rosa Tower. I had written the tower (and ATIS and ground) frequency down because I didn't trust it. I also had a paper A/FD, paper sectional, and current contact with Oakland Center in case that written frequency was wrong (it wasn't).

Where it gets real fun is when China Lake starts playing games and GPS gives wrong but rather compelling positions. That's GPS itself, so you can't use another GPS receiver to cross-check; it will give the same wrong answer.

The usual IFR rules of thumb apply. Use the 530 to navigate, but tune in all available navaids to support. You can follow VOR routes (not necessarily airways) or you can use the crossed-VOR method.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Good advice. And yes, I had paper with me...always do...sits next to my portable back-up radio.

Also I carry a second iPad as a back-up. Trouble is, I forgot it on this flight.

 

[MachFly]

* iPads are not certified for navigation for a reason...they don't pass the rigid temperature requirements that other instruments must meet

Wish people would realize that and stop relaying on the damn ipad that much.

 

[frfly172]

Sorry like the I pad with the 430.530 garmin .you can also look out the window.

 

[gismo]

Wish people would realize that and stop relaying on the damn ipad that much.

I've been using Foreflight on an iPad for approach charts and backup to my panel mounted GPS for several years and have never had a failure on the iPad. I have had failures of the IFR certified navigator so IME the certified stuff isn't all that more reliable than the cheap stuff. For that matter I have experienced a "failure" or two with paper charts. I also have FF on my cellphone as backup to the iPad for approaches and backup to the backup for enroute. I haven't carried paper charts for a long time and don't plan to in the future. Worst case I can get any information I need from ATC if everything else fails.

 

[tehmightypirate]

For that matter I have experienced a "failure" or two with paper charts.

Did they fly out the window?

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Glad your iPad hasn't failed. For many of us, it has, and more than once for me (and NOT for dead batteries...which is also a point of failure).

Having a back up iPad or iPhone is a good plan. I just like having the paper too. Of course the one and only time I needed a back up iPad, I didn't have it! The paper was extremely useful when all else failed.

 

[MachFly]

I've been using Foreflight on an iPad for approach charts and backup to my panel mounted GPS for several years and have never had a failure on the iPad. I have had failures of the IFR certified navigator so IME the certified stuff isn't all that more reliable than the cheap stuff. For that matter I have experienced a "failure" or two with paper charts. I also have FF on my cellphone as backup to the iPad for approaches and backup to the backup for enroute. I haven't carried paper charts for a long time and don't plan to in the future. Worst case I can get any information I need from ATC if everything else fails.

I've had my ipad overheat a few times, twice when I actually needed it.
I have another copy of foreflight on my phone, as well as another database in the plane's GPS. So I don't really use paper either. However if I go on an a flight which is planned to be in IMC, where I'd need to fly the approach to the minimums, I print out the paper plates.

Did they fly out the window?

Same question.

 

[gismo]

Did they fly out the window?

Spilled liquid. I have lost at least one VFR sectional out of an open cockpit though.

 

[gismo]

I've had my ipad overheat a few times, twice when I actually needed it.
I have another copy of foreflight on my phone, as well as another database in the plane's GPS. So I don't really use paper either. However if I go on an a flight which is planned to be in IMC, where I'd need to fly the approach to the minimums, I print out the paper plates.

I did manage to overheat my iPad once but that was in the car, not the airplane. Since then I'm careful to not leave it in the hot sun very long and haven't had a problem. This is an iPad2 which AFaIK is somewhat less susceptible to the overheating issue.

 

[yakdriver]

I learned to fly at SNA in the mid 70s. I flew all over the LA basin and the southwest with just a sectional and most of the time without any nav equipment on board. If you know how to read a map you are never lost. iGismo, I used to carry two of each Sectionals in the N3N. I flew that airplane all over the northwest and it didn't even have an electrical system. Always have the sectional open on your lap even with flying with GPS and follow along on it so you know exactly where you are. Don

 

[CT4ME]

Garmin 296 & paper charts. Plus ipad mini, nexus 7, 2 smartphones... all loaded with updated EFB programs.
I have experienced an iPad temp event (iPad one)

 

[us AAirways]

Garmin 296 & paper charts. Plus ipad mini, nexus 7, 2 smartphones... all loaded with updated EFB programs.
I have experienced an iPad temp event (iPad one)

I have one nav/com and paper charts.

 

[jhinman]

I learned to fly at SNA in the mid 70s. I flew all over the LA basin and the southwest with just a sectional and most of the time without any nav equipment on board. If you know how to read a map you are never lost. iGismo, I used to carry two of each Sectionals in the N3N. I flew that airplane all over the northwest and it didn't even have an electrical system. Always have the sectional open on your lap even with flying with GPS and follow along on it so you know exactly where you are. Don

And we had to walk uphill in the snow, both ways!

 

[jordane93]

I'm glad everything worked out! For me, I just have a 430W and my sectional/terminal

 

[MAKG1]

I'm glad everything worked out! For me, I just have a 430W and my sectional/terminal

That will do it.

It's VERY important to mix up the media. I know nothing of this sort should surprise me, but I get shocked at how little people understand that redundancy depends critically on independence, and there are single point failures between 12 iPhones.

I always carry paper charts. Usually my tablet (and I use it as backup in the air -- I don't trust it), and sometimes a 430 as well. The 430 always takes precedence over the tablet when it's present.

 

[Baron2PG]

FWIW: ATC is there to help if you really needed it. I was good that you were able to sort it out with VORs; however, don't hesitate to ask for assistance if you need it. Fly the plane 1st. Been too many accidents where the pilot was distracted with an issue such as the one you had.

FYI - Garmin WAAS units have a history of antenna failures. The WAAS antenna will act like a jammer and render all of your GPS system useless. If you start randomly drop GPS satellites be forewarned that an antenna failure may be coming. If you lose GPS satellites on the WAAS unit and your IPad or other back also dies; you must turn off the Garmin 5xx 4xx. This has happened to me twice, two different airplanes.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Agree completely. In this case, the 430 (actually 530) didn't work. Paper is cheap, and for me, current charts (Sectional and TAC) are always in the pocket. No charts, no flight.

 

[somorris]

Kinda makes you wonder about the airline pilots who can now use an iPad and not have to carry the charts. I like having the paper, but I use the technology.

 

[MAKG1]

Kinda makes you wonder about the airline pilots who can now use an iPad and not have to carry the charts. I like having the paper, but I use the technology.

No it doesn't.

Airliners use EFBs (not necessarily iPads) for documentation alone, not navigation, and keep multiple forms on board. They do NOT use them like GA pilots would like to believe.

 

[SoloEqs]

* When navigating complex airspace and talking to controllers, doing simultaneous route re-planning is possible, but challenging, especially without autopilot

When I fly, I have the freqs for all airfields, VORs and MOA control centers within 100 miles each way of planned course in hard copy on my kneeboard. I also have the paper chart (sometimes even a CURRENT one, but always SOMETHING). I also have my checkpoints, courses and commo freqs and points on paper clipped to the yoke.

Your trip was more or less local, but still . . .

 

[ethank]

I use the iPad with Garmin Pilot in flight. I learned -- especially with the DA20 -- to point the vent at the back of the iPad during flight when possible. The only way to "cool" an iPad is to radiate heat from the metal portion on the rear.

Also typically I'll use iPad, GNS430 and a backup Nav log with sectionals in the plane. Often I print the Nav log out from Garmin or Foreflight's web interface.

 

[trackersocha]

how hot was it to shut down the iPad? I have had mine in the truck in the middle of the summer with no problems.

 

[BillTIZ]

So there we were...in complex LA Airspace, with only our sectionals and a VOR plan that was sketchy at best. We spent the first few minutes figuring out the VOR's and planning a better routing, all while talking (as usual) to multiple ATC folks.

Lessons Learned:

Still, this one was an eye-opener.

Welcome to pilotage 101. The way it was done before GPS and touch pad tablets.

It's becoming a lost art.

 

[yakdriver]

I looked at the route and it's not that big a deal to do with just pilotage if it's VFR.

 

[MAKG1]

I looked at the route and it's not that big a deal to do with just pilotage if it's VFR.

LA is very easy to pilot "I Follow Roads." There are some 50 freeways there.

There are also a ton of good landmarks, mountain ranges to follow, and so on.

 

[yakdriver]

It is tough on a smoggy hazey day. I learned how to navigate looking straight down. If you know the freeway system it is pretty easy to navigate. Don't get me wrong, I love my GPS but if it fritzes out on a cross country it is a non event. Don

 

[yakdriver]

And we had to walk uphill in the snow, both ways!

And hand prop to start, actually look out the window to navigate and watch for traffic, use a stopwatch to figure out how much fuel we had left. :wink2: I really like technology, my RV7 had glass with no round instruments, but you still have to have good pilotage skills. Don

 

[MAKG1]

It is tough on a smoggy hazey day. I learned how to navigate looking straight down. If you know the freeway system it is pretty easy to navigate. Don't get me wrong, I love my GPS but if it fritzes out on a cross country it is a non event. Don

That's true, but the air quality really has been a lot better in recent years. Every time I've been in the Valley lately, I've gotten a nice view of the Hollywood Hills from Newhall Pass. That used to be impossible.

 

[yakdriver]

Yes it has. My parents started flying in 1961 and I remember a lot more smoggy days. I got my PPL in 1976 at SNA and again there was a lot of 3 mile vis days. I fly down a couple times a year and it has always been pretty good VFR. Don