Mountain Flying Training near Denver

Thanks Clark - I am meeting Mari (hopefully) in October! When I see her I will ask.
OK, I'll be expecting the question. :D

I actually did my mountain checkout in California. I remember going from Oakland to South Lake Tahoe and some other places I can't remember in a C150.
 
I'm sure I would have survived my first trip into the heart of the Rockies without a mountain checkout. After all, I read the books. Had the theories down cold. But the chance to go out there and do it, land on runways I'd never have attempted otherwise, identify survivable landing spots miles from the nearest runway, know what a properly-leaned-for-takeoff engine sounds like, prove to myself that I could put in 40* of flaps, fly frighteningly close to a canyon wall, turn the little airplane on its edge, and squeak out of there unscathed, deal with interesting downdrafts when there's a lot of real estate above me, see with a native what I would see with my kids in the back seat the following day, was an amazing experience for me. Maybe not necessary for most people, but I found it worth every dime and every minute... but then, I don't get to see real mountains very often.
 
Also, Kim, if you go to Lake Tahoe- which might be Truckee?? Be sure to check out the noise abatement procedures there , it's annoying and fairly complex. at least it seemed that way to me. I fly off a field with 4500 elevation and it's not magic so much as knowing about leaning properly and a few other things -some already mentioned. Sparkys book is good, flying with an experienced pilot in addition to reading better. The pilot doesn't necessarily have to be a CFI.
 
I'm assuming this week. Depends how long Paul will be in the area. Thursday? Friday?

I'm at BJC waiting for a ride to Denver right now. Had a great day driving in the mountains: out through Golden, then Nederland, Gold Hill, and finally to the airport via Boulder. The aspen colors are turning. The weather is perfect. I see now why people move here.

Ground school is tomorrow morning with John along with a short local flight in the afternoon. Mountain flying on Thursday.

I'm staying with a college friend who lives in Denver near the southwest corner of City Park as best I can tell (sorry, not familiar with the local geography). I haven't had a chance to sort out the plan with him, so I'm nit sure when I'd be free, yet.

Cheers,
Paul
 
Tell John "Hey" from me, too! btw, sleepy feet will not be tolerated.
 
From coffin corner? <insert maniacal laugh here>

Yup, weather has been nice - no wind to speak of in the mountains - and I was stuck in Wyoming.

It's still in the corner, but it's the only airplane in there now. Got the battery cables replaced, the annual has been started, and R&B (or B&R) are inventoring all the parts that came along. We discovered that the overhaul shop forgot the new fuel lines and the oil cooler.

On the positive side, I trashed the 13 pounds of old insulation & interior.
 
Denverites on this board always like to scare us up with the crash stories, but 90% of the time it's the same thing, over and over again: suicide. Flew into a narrow canyon under cloud cover, in howling winds, made a wrong turn, *splat*. Whyyyyyyy!

Pete -
Nope - lots of time it's a clear, sunny day with mild winds and people still die. It's knowing which canyons are flyable and which aren't. It's knowing which passes are flyable and which aren't. It's understanding density altitude and weight & balance issues.

Why do so many of us Denverites (more correctly, us Coloradoans?) repeatedly take mountain flying courses? I just finished the ground (can't do the flying until I get the engine installed) for the 3rd time in 10 years. I'm not the only one who believes in a periodic refresher course.

And it's not suicide. Suicide is intentional. What you describe is merely stupidity.
 
x2 ... I've taken the ground 3 times as well. From different instructors each time, intentionally, to gain as much knowledge as possible. The rocks are unforgiving of ignorance or inattentiveness.
 
Also, Kim, if you go to Lake Tahoe- which might be Truckee?? Be sure to check out the noise abatement procedures there , it's annoying and fairly complex. at least it seemed that way to me. I fly off a field with 4500 elevation and it's not magic so much as knowing about leaning properly and a few other things -some already mentioned. Sparkys book is good, flying with an experienced pilot in addition to reading better. The pilot doesn't necessarily have to be a CFI.
South Lake Tahoe and Truckee are two different airports although they are both near the Lake. South Lake Tahoe is obviously near the South Shore. Truckee is northwest, not too far from Squaw Valley.
 
Thanks Mari, I think it was Truckee that I flew out of with a CFI getting started on my comm in a 172RG. I just remember the noise abatement procedures as seeming overwhelming at the time.

Course out here we don't have anything like that.
 
Denverites on this board always like to scare us up with the crash stories, but 90% of the time it's the same thing, over and over again: suicide. Flew into a narrow canyon under cloud cover, in howling winds, made a wrong turn, *splat*. Whyyyyyyy!

The NTSB record nor the searches I've been on back that statement up.

(Far, far less in recent years, thankfully -- but that's probably because far fewer pilots are flying in general and we see less and less out of state pilots showing up in non-high-performance light aircraft these days, due to the waning pilot population, the economy, and generally high prices for long cross-countries.)

Citation needed, as they say on Wikipedia. If you've got data that shows a majority of mountain crashes here are suicides, I'd love to see it.

Here's a nice sunny day in the Colorado mountains mixed with a couple of bad decisions:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=316_1249535759

The video will take you all the way to the stall/spin and crash and death of both people on board.

Aircraft and what was left of the people wasn't found for years. Video was on old-fashioned videotape that was spliced together to see if it'd play. It did.

There's nothing truly difficult about Mountain Flying, it's about reading/knowing the weather, and knowing the performance of your aircraft right up against the maximum performance lines on the charts and graphs in the POH.

Fly around all day at 65% power at sea-level even for takeoff, and it's a weak but interesting simulation.

As other's have said, a good mountain instructor can show you the ropes, check to make sure you're not making any egregious mental mistakes from habits developed at sea-level (lean for takeoff, for example... never full rich... just as one small example) and then you'll know you're thinking about the right things.

If you're lucky, and there's a little bit of wind on your training flight day, and you'll get to see the up/downdrafts visualize the wind flowing over the ridge lines and where the lift will be and where the sink will be, etc... and see just how fast they can overpower a light aircraft.

You also learn and have a bit of drill by the instructor in "always leave yourself an out"... when climb performance is marginal, you always need lower terrain to turn towards. If you're aimed at the high terrain, that's a 180... if you point at an oblique angle (the 45 degree ridge-crossing "rule") you have less turn to go away from the high rocks.

I don't know if I'd call this "lucky" or just say "whoa" but a really lucky pilot would have just enough wind and bumps to have to actually *execute* their "out" plan at at least one ridge line and go back into a valley and do more climbing.

Groundspeeds are faster. You get a chance with someone else aboard to see what a 20% or more increase in landing groundspeed looks like. Your eyes will tell your brain "too fast!" but your airspeed indicator won't lie.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Many pilots just don't have a lot of experience operating their aircraft at the edges of their performance envelope. Every time they've pushed the throttle up, they've been able to climb.

Until you've seen the throttle full forward, and you can't go up anymore, and there's terrain out climbing you ahead, you kinda just think it's all safe and happy. Sadly, some people "scare" themselves to death. Other's just scare themselves, and live to fly another day, and learn to read the POH and calculate Density Altitude.

Is everything you *should* need to know about mountain flying covered in a Private Pilot's license? Perhaps... other than maybe learning about local weather phenomena and how to read the winds.

How many Private Pilots remember katabatic and adiabatic winds from your Private Pilot Meteorology study, for example? They're a very real phenomenon at mountain airports, and sometimes very strong! Other examples abound.

People who spend a lot of time in the mountains on the ground probably are aware of those very acutely... someone coming from the flat-land read that part of their meteorology book 10 years ago, and promptly forgot it.

I've searched for enough missing airplanes, and while we SAR folks always appreciate a little government-funded flight time, we really would prefer not to go looking in the first place.

Here's this year's crash... no suicide here. Father and daughter. They survived.

Here's some inside-baseball on this one. There was no reason to risk ground assets in the rugged backcountry overnight after dark on this search, right up until the guy in the right-seat of the CAP aircraft's photo of the area was analyzed -- and SAR experts realized the fire was a CAMP fire and not a fire caused as a result of the crash.

It would have been a very long, cold, night and part of the next day.. but at least they had a fire going.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15481874

They were pulled out just before dawn instead of hours and hours later.

"There have been seven aircraft crashes, with 11 fatalities, in the park since 1948. The last fatal crash was in 2000 near Comanche Peak, with two deaths, Patterson said." That's JUST Rocky Mountain National Park.
 
Oh by the way, Sparky's original book was just called "Mountain Flying" which was why it was so hard to remember. ;)

4b94241c-a680-1f80.jpg


He signed my copy March 31, 1992 in his amazingly neat penmanship.

4b94241c-a6cd-5ca2.jpg


The Mountain Flying Bible and further titles still available on his website, now really sold by his wife and the company following his death, came along later after he moved to Idaho.

http://www.mountainflying.com/

Scare tactics, maybe. But my first CFI got called out on a search mission for one of his good friends. Iced up a twin between Laramie, WY and Cheyenne, WY and couldn't outclimb the ridgeline, IMC. It seriously sucks to search for someone you know personally hours later when the weather clears in 30F weather. Because if the crash doesn't kill you, exposure will.

I would prefer not to recognize the pilot's name on the private briefing information we get prior to launching a C-182 to go look for a missing aircraft. Definitely not one from PoA who came here to enjoy themselves on a vacation with their airplane.
 
I have to assume by "suicide" Pete meant "accidental death brought on by ignorance or complacency"
 
Great day today. We did all the ground training in the morning and flew to Longmont for a couple of touch-and-goes. I've never experienced density altitudes like these; it was over 87 degrees today. Started out with a long takeoff roll. The increased ground speed got me a little bit on landing. My crosswind technique also needs some real work, but it was a lot of fun.

The plan for tomorrow morning if the weather cooperates is:

Jeffco
Kenosha Pass
Weston Pass
Leadville (LXV)
Hagerman Pass
Glenwood (GWS)
Steamboat Springs (SBS)
Jeffco

It will be an adventure.

P.S. I relayed all of your Hello's.
 
I have to assume by "suicide" Pete meant "accidental death brought on by ignorance or complacency"


Yeah, Pete, nothing really to be scared of flying in those mountains. :rolleyes:
 
I have to assume by "suicide" Pete meant "accidental death brought on by ignorance or complacency"
Maybe. Maybe not. It's generally much easier to think that anyone who gets smashed in an air crash is stupid - the alternative is to acknowledge that it can happen to oneself.
 
The plan for tomorrow morning if the weather cooperates is:

Jeffco
Kenosha Pass
Weston Pass
Leadville (LXV)
Hagerman Pass
Glenwood (GWS)
Steamboat Springs (SBS)
Jeffco

It will be an adventure.

P.S. I relayed all of your Hello's.

Cool. That's "backwards" from CPA's route (counter-clockwise instead of clockwise) but generally the same idea.

Looks like John wants to get Leadville done before it gets too hot up there. We've been somewhat unseasonably warm for the end of Seltember. So KLXV first. Also gives you more time to climb coming out of KBJC south-bound along the foothills.

Have him point out Red Rocks amphitheater along the way. Pretty from the air.

Winter's going to come as a shock to all when it hits at the end of October.

All stations with TAFs are showing few clouds - 10,000 AGL tomorrow morning and afternoon which doesn't give a ton of cloud clearance room at the ridgelines above the valleys, but as long as it stays few/scattered it looks flyable.

Nice High pressure you ordered up on the charts, there. ;) Could be a touch bumpy. Just right for an initial mountain training ride as long as those clouds behave.

Didn't look at the pressures on the West side or the jet stream, but you might get some mild west to east wind action from those tomorrow. Maybe a light lenticular or two. That high should keep the Jet north of us though, so probably not much.

KBJC showing 5000 scattered is probably the beginnings of our usual trough along the Eastern Slope.

That's a pain because you'll need to be higher than that to cross Corona/Rollins Pass between KSBS and KBJC. Again as long as it stays few/scattered and you can go up through it, you're good.

You may have also lucked out and gotten one of the few times of the year that Rabbit Ears Pass east of KSBS isn't a cloud-covered mess. ;)

The Aspens are changing to gold and orange. It should be an absolutely gorgeous flight sightseeing-wise. I'm jealous.

My bird's leaving for South Dakota for a week. Otherwise I'd be watching the weekend forecast for a nice mountain tree peeping flight. Jealous!

Have fun! Don't forget to get your landing certificate at KLXV!
 
Cool. That's "backwards" from CPA's route (counter-clockwise instead of clockwise) but generally the same idea.
The CPA's "standard" route is meant to be a progression. Depending on the airplane, Corona/Rollins pass may require a shuttle climb to get up from ple plains. Kremmling or Granby are "typical" in that there are ins and outs, moderate elevation and "1-way" airports. GWS is the mild canyon airport, Aspen (as does GWS depending on how you come in) has a blind approach. Leadville shows the effects of pure D-alt in what appears to be an otherwise wide open area.

There's obviously no rule that says you can't do it a different way to highlight different things, but that's the general CPA route philosophy for the initial mountain training/familiarization flight.

The described flight sounds like a great one.
 
So the next question - dinner today (thurs) or tomorrow? Paul - friends and such are always invited!
 
GWS is the mild canyon airport, Aspen (as does GWS depending on how you come in) has a blind approach. Leadville shows the effects of pure D-alt in what appears to be an otherwise wide open area.

Yup, I didn't have time to go into philosophy last night. I had a maintenance window starting in a few minutes after I posted that. :)

Most of their CFIs are doing the "round the mountain" into GWS, so it kind'a breaks the "medium canyon" airport thought and makes it a touch harder... you go from super-easy at 20V to "don't hit the wingtip into the mountain, make a right, and there's the runway" at KGWS now... ;)

But the idea was good when most folks went down-valley over the town to get into GWS. With the complaints of noise from the town, it's probably better to go around and make the right-base behind the hill.

Folks do still go both ways though, as you've pointed out. Gotta watch out for folks coming base-to-final from different directions there nowadays.

For those unaware, Dick, the airport manager at KGWS, publishes a newsletter roughly monthly, that he calls the "GWS Bugsmasher".

Sometimes his viewpoint is fun to read... you sometimes see how long it takes stuff more "connected to the Net" folks to get to a mountain airport manager who's not a total computer geek... and the trials and tribulations of running a little mountain airport.

They hurt for fuel sales there. Lots of folks tanker in and fly out. No fees, they're trying to keep it that way.

I joked with Dick in e-mail that with CPA and others *ALWAYS* using GWS as a training stop, they should probably tack $10 onto their courses and pass it directly on to GWS. Probably should do it to the other airports also.

I think he's too modest to ask any group/organization to do that. To me, it seems like the right thing to do... :dunno:
 
So the next question - dinner today (thurs) or tomorrow? Paul - friends and such are always invited!
Getting a little late for today but it would be OK. Tomorrow too, probably.
 
So the next question - dinner today (thurs) or tomorrow? Paul - friends and such are always invited!

I have to be at the house near the radio at 19:00 to be the Grand Poobah... er, Net Control Station, which usually lasts about 15 minutes or so.

Then I'm free after that.
 
The CPA's "standard" route is meant to be a progression. Depending on the airplane, Corona/Rollins pass may require a shuttle climb to get up from ple plains. Kremmling or Granby are "typical" in that there are ins and outs, moderate elevation and "1-way" airports. GWS is the mild canyon airport, Aspen (as does GWS depending on how you come in) has a blind approach. Leadville shows the effects of pure D-alt in what appears to be an otherwise wide open area.

There's obviously no rule that says you can't do it a different way to highlight different things, but that's the general CPA route philosophy for the initial mountain training/familiarization flight.

The described flight sounds like a great one.

I didn't know that! Learn something new every day!
 
The overcast layer over BJC out to the continental divide was low enough this morning that it we scrubbed the mountain flight. We're going to try again tomorrow morning, same route.

I did get to go up and play student with soon-to-be CFI Gordon in a C182RG hopped up with an O-540 engine. I learned how eights on pylons are done. Lots of fun. This trip has been a blast.

So the next question - dinner today (thurs) or tomorrow? Paul - friends and such are always invited!

Getting a little late for today but it would be OK. Tomorrow too, probably.

I have to be at the house near the radio at 19:00 to be the Grand Poobah... er, Net Control Station, which usually lasts about 15 minutes or so.

Then I'm free after that.

I can't meet for dinner Friday. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to make firm plans--they have been changing by the minute. I'm at my buddy's place on the west side of City Park in Denver now. I could probably meet anywhere around there, if someone wanted to get together for a bite to eat. I know it is short notice, so no worries if it is too late. I don't know when, but there is no doubt that I will be back :)

BTW, John B's band is playing a gig at 7pm this evening (they are the first act). I believe he said it was the Toad Tavern but I'm not 100% sure.
 
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My schedule just changed by a minimum of 15 minutes, and a maximum of... [open ended if something goes wrong].

Company wants to make some changes to public DNS that points to the company VPN servers tonight. Normally goes without a hitch.

Obviously if it doesn't, oh... you know... the whole company goes off-line... since the vast majority of our employees work from home. (VPN's kinda important. GRIN!)

So... I'll be doing that at 19:15. If it goes well, I'll be done around 19:30. If it goes down the tubes, I'll be working on it until it works or until the company goes under sometime tomorrow morning. HAHAHA... kidding. Maybe. HA. :)

In general though... tonight's probably "bad" for me. Friday I have the same 19:00 limitation I had today. That ends Sunday and won't roll around again for about 9 weeks. :)
 
Yesterday's flight was amazing. The weather could not have been more perfect and the fall colors were indescribably beautiful. By far, that was the coolest flight this flatlander has made to date. We flew the route mentioned previously, putting 4.1 hours on hobbs meter.

The winds aloft were good and created plenty of "surf"--orographic lift--to climb in. There were thermals popping in late morning/afternoon, too. This was the first time I've ever been ridge soaring in an airplane (or a glider for that matter). Out of Leadville, I saw climb rates close to 1,000 fpm in the lift, so we easily sailed over Hagerman Pass. The lift also made it possible to get over Corona/Rollins Pass without scratching.

The weather was benign yesterday. I had expected to get the sh*t beaten out of me, but it wasn't rough. We hit only isolated patches of turbulence, pretty much where you'd expect it, such as the beginning of the dive through Corona Pass--we preemptively cinched down the safety belts before making that crossing. John pointed out the pilot's side glare shield that had been broken by some poor soul's head, so I'm sure it can get sporty.

We had a great lunch with Tony, David, and family in Steamboat. Nice to meet you all!

I made plenty of mistakes and my flying was embarrassingly sloppy. I had to go-around at Glenwood Springs after setting up way too high and every landing on the trip was ugly. I missed the turn up the valley on the way to Steamboat and got disoriented. The descent into Steamboat was a power-off 1,500+ fpm deal due to my stellar navigational skills.

John is an incredible instructor and I can't begin to list all the things I learned during the time I spent with him. He and Kip treated me like family. He immediately zeroed-in on my bad habits, sloppy technique, and stuff that I haven't successfully un-learned, yet, and left me with good things to practice. I'm impressed with Western Air and I'm contemplating coming back to work on my instrument rating when I can fund that effort.
 
Another style of "license to learn", eh?

Congrats!

You got some great experience there.

Going up the wrong drainage/valley is usually reserved for later when solo or just as PIC where you can scare the heck out of yourself. Doing it with a CFI is umm... Less lethal. ;)

Interesting how easy it is to get turned around up there, isn't it?

Ridge lift at Hagerman on the LXV side. I'll be darned. Usually it's westerly winds there and the rotors and downdrafts are on the LXV side.

You caught some interesting "backwards" weather for your "backwards" flight! Neat. I'm a little jealous.

Any feelings of hypoxia at Hagerman? That's the high one on your route.

Glenwood "snuck up on you" eh? Heh heh. It does that. It's hard to convince oneself that you need to descend on base leg when you can't even see the runway yet, eh? ;)

Fun stuff!
 
Yesterday's flight was amazing. The weather could not have been more perfect and the fall colors were indescribably beautiful.
Glad you had a good time. I was up in the mountains last weekend and was guessing that this weekend and possibly next would be the peak of the fall colors.
 
Glad you had a good time. I was up in the mountains last weekend and was guessing that this weekend and possibly next would be the peak of the fall colors.

Colors are peaking here in Jackson Hole.......
Strange year though,,, it is running at least two weeks late as usually the leaves are on the ground by now.:dunno::dunno:..

Ben.
 
You may have also lucked out and gotten one of the few times of the year that Rabbit Ears Pass east of KSBS isn't a cloud-covered mess. ;)

Nate, I am not sure where you got the idea that Rabbit Ears is always socked in, but as a local I can assure you that the opposite is true. Most days Rabbit ears is VMC, of course in the winter, if there is a storm, it will be cloudy, but no more so than any other mtn pass in CO.
 
Paul, it was very cool meeting you. Your landing at SBS looked good from the ramp! Your timing was impecable for the aspens turning. Here is a picture I took that same morning on a flight from Durango to Steamboat.

P9300304.jpg
 
Colors are peaking here in Jackson Hole.......
Strange year though,,, it is running at least two weeks late as usually the leaves are on the ground by now.:dunno::dunno:..
We've had a very long, dry, warm, indian summer this year.
 
Nate, I am not sure where you got the idea that Rabbit Ears is always socked in, but as a local I can assure you that the opposite is true. Most days Rabbit ears is VMC, of course in the winter, if there is a storm, it will be cloudy, but no more so than any other mtn pass in CO.

Hmm interesting. I must admit I don't make it up to SBS enough. Just based on the whining of ex-Rocky pilots. ;)

Your explanation makes more sense. Another OPT (Old Pilot's Tale) debunked. ;)
 
Ridge lift at Hagerman on the LXV side. I'll be darned. Usually it's westerly winds there and the rotors and downdrafts are on the LXV side.

Any feelings of hypoxia at Hagerman? That's the high one on your route.

Glenwood "snuck up on you" eh? Heh heh. It does that. It's hard to convince oneself that you need to descend on base leg when you can't even see the runway yet, eh? ;)

Fun stuff!
The winds were roughly from the west. We flew along a rock formation north of Leadville to climb before turning toward Hagerman pass. The lift got a little stronger as we climbed up the ridge and it was fairly constant, so I think it was ridge lift vs. thermals. There were thermals in the valley that helped, too.

The recommendation to take the course in the least powerful airplane you can find is a good one. I should have done it in John's Cessna 150.

I really misjudged the approach into GWS. The go-around was interesting, too. Despite making sure to raise the flaps slowly, the airplane still settled for a second or two when I took out the last 10 degrees of flap due to the DA. And that drop off at the end of rwy 32 seemed to create an optical illusion: for some reason, it looked like I was lower on final approach than I really was.

I thought I could feel the altitude when we were over 13,000 feet, but it wasn't too bad. I was a little loopy on the ramp immediately after landing in Steamboat, but the rapid descent is more likely the cause than altitude. I intended to buy one of those fingertip pulse oximeters so that I could see the effect of altitude, but forgot.

It was a great course. I'd like to do it again on a day when it would be challenging to get over some of the passes.
 
The winds were roughly from the west. We flew along a rock formation north of Leadville to climb before turning toward Hagerman pass. The lift got a little stronger as we climbed up the ridge and it was fairly constant, so I think it was ridge lift vs. thermals. There were thermals in the valley that helped, too.

The recommendation to take the course in the least powerful airplane you can find is a good one. I should have done it in John's Cessna 150.

I really misjudged the approach into GWS. The go-around was interesting, too. Despite making sure to raise the flaps slowly, the airplane still settled for a second or two when I took out the last 10 degrees of flap due to the DA. And that drop off at the end of rwy 32 seemed to create an optical illusion: for some reason, it looked like I was lower on final approach than I really was.

I thought I could feel the altitude when we were over 13,000 feet, but it wasn't too bad. I was a little loopy on the ramp immediately after landing in Steamboat, but the rapid descent is more likely the cause than altitude. I intended to buy one of those fingertip pulse oximeters so that I could see the effect of altitude, but forgot.

It was a great course. I'd like to do it again on a day when it would be challenging to get over some of the passes.

Welcome to the world of high altitude flying..:yesnod::yesnod::idea::wink2:...

Ben.
 
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