murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ground is usually at KBJC in the large conference room. Number of hotels in the area.
Mountain Flying Course
- Thread starter murphey
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2016
- Messages
- 4,578
- Display Name
Display name:
Ari
Thanks. That answers this:
Fly to KBJC, which is not a "mountain" flight from any direction but southwest.
TimRF79
Pre-takeoff checklist
But the ground school and 2nd day of flying is at an airport in a mountain area right?
So how can someone get their safely without mountain experience to a course in a mountain airport?
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you're SW, then head for ABQ then follow I-25 north (watch out for the R just south of KCOS) then just north of KCOS, head NNW to KBJC. Never need to go above 9500 and most of it is flatland, cruise along at 7500-8500 msl.Thanks. That answers this:
Fly to KBJC, which is not a "mountain" flight from any direction but southwest.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Not sure what you’re asking.
People fly into a front range airport (not mountain).
Do a ground school there.
Then depart from there (weather permitting etc) the day after to fly TO mountain airports with a qualified mountain instructor.
Round robin flight plan returning the same day after multiple mountain airports (and practice with mountain terrain flying, weather, pilotage, and such along the way) to the front range area airport because that’s where everybody left their cars and their hotel rooms.
Does that help?
It’s not 100 hours of mountain time or anything but it’ll cover basics that’ll serve well for further adventures and learning. And help alleviate the biggest mistakes with high/fatal consequences.
TimRF79
Pre-takeoff checklist
Interesting... coming from sea level in Texas, I consider this a Mountain airport.Thanks. That answers this:
Fly to KBJC, which is not a "mountain" flight from any direction but southwest.
Doesn't the prximity to the Rocky's give this AP some Mountain weather?
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
From Houston..follow I-35 to just south of Dallas/Ft Worth, take I-20 west to I-25, north to Denver area.
Oh wait, I forgot. Houston is below sea level. You're not used to flying above 2500 MSL.
Don't worry, I'll loan you my O2 tank. I only use it when I'm above 12.5
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yup. But only on a windy day. An option - park at KCFO (30 miles from the hills) or KAPA (25 miles from the hills) and rent a car or take an Uber to the class. Then on fly day, arrange with the CFI to meet you at KCFO or KAPA. Then learn how to land/take off at BJC on your way to the rest of the flight.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2016
- Messages
- 4,578
- Display Name
Display name:
Ari
I flew my Arrow to KBJC in July 2018. The field elevation of 5673 can be a little intimidating, especially if it's hot out and the DA is significantly higher. But the runway is almost 2 miles long and I just followed the rule that your groundspeed may be higher but the plane will approach and land at the same indicated airspeed. The only drama on that trip came from my iPad overheating while I preflighted for my afternoon departure so I couldn't load the taxi diagram.
I don't think KBJC counts as a mountain airport, just a high-elevation one. For me, mountain flying implies nearby terrain above the wing, and there isn't any such terrain within the KBJC class D airspace.
I don't think KBJC counts as a mountain airport, just a high-elevation one. For me, mountain flying implies nearby terrain above the wing, and there isn't any such terrain within the KBJC class D airspace.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Ha. Loaded question.
BJC suffers from “downslope” winds coming off the Rockies on heavy westerly wind days, and is of course solidly in the category of “high density altitude” airports, but the mountain airports can... and do... see worse than BJC.
Usually the course is planned not to be held at BJC during Spring and Fall “wind” months — where yeah, they sometimes clock winds there and nearby at the weather station on the Rocky Flats facility at 100 MPH.
But generally... most folks can plan a flight into BJC and execute it with their existing skill set and POH for performance numbers.
The only hint I might add is that with groundspeed being higher than their home airport at sea level for the same indicated airspeed, don’t let the runway coming up a bit quicker fool your brain — use your ASI on final and know it’ll look and feel a bit fast.
Lots of folks successfully visit BJC, APA, BDU, FNL, FTG, etc... without any special training or skill. Once here the ground school and the instructor can talk to finer points like starting persnickety engines at high DA, operation of mixture for best power, the groundspeed thing... etc... definitely covered in the course material along with the actual mountain flying techniques.
And to reiterate — it is not a “backcountry” course. Instructors are independent contractors and not directly associated with the ground school, so if someone does have an airplane capable of such and one of the instructors is willing, something like that can be added, but it isn’t the focus of the course. The focus is on operation from regular mountain airports.
(And honestly we have a lot fewer off airport and unimproved airports here compared to say, the Idaho backcountry schools that specialize in that.)
You arrive scared to death, risking life and limb and you leave a confident mountain man aviator (in the same conditions).
How's that for not overthinking it?
denverpilot
Tied Down
P.S. You’re already showing more skill than SOME @TimRF79 by noticing BJCs altitude and proximity to the rocks.
Just wanted to say... good job!
Being aware of the difference in performance at high DA... is more than half the battle with SOME pilots! Haha.
Not too many. But there’s always a few. Hahaha.
Just wanted to say... good job!
Being aware of the difference in performance at high DA... is more than half the battle with SOME pilots! Haha.
Not too many. But there’s always a few. Hahaha.
cowtowner
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2009
- Messages
- 568
- Display Name
Display name:
Cowtowner
I flew from Fort Worth to BJC three months after I got my ticket. It’s a long runway.
when I left with full tanks, I left early in the AM (it was June) thinking I’d beat the DA and the crowds. I was number 8 to takeoff after a bunch of students. They get up early to fly there!!
It’s a great airport. Signature treated me well and had my rental car waiting for me. First big cross country with my Cherokee and right in the middle of Covid.
I flew up another time but went to APA as BJC didn’t have any affordable rental cars. Didn’t get treated near as nice. By then things had started to open up a lot more and the big boys were packed on the ramp.
when I left with full tanks, I left early in the AM (it was June) thinking I’d beat the DA and the crowds. I was number 8 to takeoff after a bunch of students. They get up early to fly there!!
It’s a great airport. Signature treated me well and had my rental car waiting for me. First big cross country with my Cherokee and right in the middle of Covid.
I flew up another time but went to APA as BJC didn’t have any affordable rental cars. Didn’t get treated near as nice. By then things had started to open up a lot more and the big boys were packed on the ramp.
Attachments
Sierra_Hotel
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2019
- Messages
- 985
- Display Name
Display name:
Sierra_Hotel
Correction, I-45 north from Houston
Also, 20 to 25 takes you through Raton Pass. US-287 south of DFW takes you across the plains straight to Denver.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
z
arg...it’s been more than 10 yrs since I drove it. Used to drive Phoenix-Austin twice a year. Only did the Houston trip couple times.Correction, I-45 north from Houston
Sierra_Hotel
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2019
- Messages
- 985
- Display Name
Display name:
Sierra_Hotel
Spent a few years driving between south of Houston and C-Springs. Got to be very familiar with all of the route options.
Snowmass
Line Up and Wait
I love flying the Mountain West, the most beautiful part of the country in my opinion. It's great that many will take such a course; however, if your plane has a high ceiling (mine is 21K) and you land at airports with long runways and stick to very good WX it's safe for a flatlander to fly without special training.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,268
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Just look at the course as not a requirement but a refresher. Just like an IFR pilot who attends an IFR workshop. You’re qualified but the course enhances your pilot abilities.
The Army’s high altitude course (HAMETS) is out there (Ft Carson). I never attended it when I was in but I still deployed to mountainous areas. It’s nothing more than a nice to have but not required to operate safely in the mountains.
woodchucker
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
- Messages
- 1,840
- Display Name
Display name:
woodchucker
Ha. I hired an instructor to take me to Glenwood when I was parked at Rifle for a ski trip. White knuckle experience. I can’t do August but perhaps next year if June is offered I could participate.
denverpilot
Tied Down
One of the things I like about the CPA coursework is it tries to eliminate the fear of not knowing what to expect. Example, the GWS section has photos, discussion of local quirks like the nearly ever-present sink over the river on short final, and of course the typically one-way ops.
It's the old "prepare the student, don't scare them" stuff that should be done by a CFI, long before cranking the engine.
Learning is supposed to be enjoyable. Foreknowledge goes a long way in turning "white knuckle" into "pleasantly surprised". Of course everyone will have their own personal emotional reaction level too, but a trip into GWS on a nice day shouldn't feel quite that nerve-wracking, IMHO. I'd try not to make it feel like that, anyway.
Healthly nervousness, maybe. Just that "I'm wide awake and paying close attention since this has some added risk" feeling.
Skip Miller
Final Approach
Wagondriver
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2020
- Messages
- 638
- Display Name
Display name:
375Taylor
If someone up for it is in the area (KGWS), I'll take them up and over to Marble. Its really not that scary. But, I have been making the 180 degree turn from downwind to final at GWS and suddenly had airspeed down to the stall horn WHILE already descending, but that was 3:00 in the afternoon and it was gusty AND swirly. I just added some power and pointed the nose to the ground, all good! Got to be on your toes at that time of day!
If its late afternoon and rough, go over to EGE, long runway and usually not swirly winds.
If its late afternoon and rough, go over to EGE, long runway and usually not swirly winds.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes and no. No, it's not "mountain," but yes, as you mentioned, it's still high density altitude. They come together in the Rockies but they really are separate things with their own challenges. Pilots get in trouble in the lower mountains of the east, even with the extra power and airfoil performance of relatively low density altitude. And there have been density altitude takeoff and landing accidents in the flatlands of the Front Range for reason from running full rich to not understanding the performance effects. I once flew with a visitor who tried his best to induce a real departure stall out of KAPA by insisting it was perfectly ok to pull that 172 into the same pitch attitude as he did in the lowlands, despite the deteriorating airspeed.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I did assume they have the skill set required of the certifcate! Lol.
and said "most"...
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Truth is, you don't really understand density altitude until you experience density altitude. I think the problem is less the knowledge/skill one brings to the table than understanding where their gaps are.I did assume they have the skill set required of the certifcate! Lol.and said "most"...
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yeah I know. I got a message once from acquaintances participating in a literal cross country thing before I was a CFI asking what they did wrong ... They couldn't get the airplane started at APA and said it had started spewing fuel on the ramp the more they cranked...
Heh. They just horribly flooded it of course. Forgot what they both knew. As soon as someone said "It's summertime in Denver. Quit priming the silly thing... Way too much fuel..."
The lightbulb went on.
So I guess we say, like you did, "Expect higher ground speed, lower performance, and fly airspeed no matter what you see out the window... And you'll likely land at a Front Range airport just fine. Try not to make your first experience when it's above 80F or so..."
Do be aware and cautious but don't necessarily be scared. Just pay attention. Heh.
And BJC specific, just avoid the place in high winds unless you're awfully comfortable with gusts and can add in that airspeed / groundspeed awareness above at the same time. Ha. When that place is windy it just kicks your butt.
There's some cool photos today of airliners and commercial jets just tooling along around the tornado that tracked across N CO a couple days ago. Ha. One corp jet pilot even asked if anyone caught one with her jet in it in a photo group. Haha.
"Just flying around this tornado... Got places to be..." Hahaha.
Big azz rope tornado that had nearly zero obscuration by clouds or precip for 100 miles under it. Everybody just giving it a wife berth and staring at it. Haha.
Best shots of it and biggest size was as it passed through Platteville if you wanna search for photos. DEN actually landed and took off 7 and 8 for a bit, and you know how rare that is. Ha.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
My version of that one. I was in line for departure at APA. A Cherokee was ahead of me. When cleared for takeoff, the Cherokee moved forward about 5 feet and stopped. "Tower, our engine just quit."
I keyed the mic. "Tower, You might ask if the Cherokee leaned for takeoff."
Cherokee: "oh yeah, I forgot about that."
Last edited:
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2019
- Messages
- 2,285
- Location
- Chicagoland
- Display Name
Display name:
The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
I just got home from this seminar. It was fantastic! Kudos to the Colorado Pilots Association for hosting it. We made two attempts at the flight portion but had to scrub each day - Sunday and Monday. Smoke was wicked bad on Monday. I’ll try to make it back next month or so for it.
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
You can get a taste of it even living in the flatlands when you try to climb a 160 Piper PA-28 at max gross to 10,000 ft on a hot summer afternoon — up 100 ft, down 50, up 200, down 150, ...