Most efficient way to build multi-time?

[rookie1255]

I have zero hours multi-engine time and I was curious as to the most efficient way to get a multi-engine rating, MEI, and 100 hours of multi-time.

ATP flight school would cost about $35,000 for multi-engine rating, MEI, and time building. Lodging cost is included in that.

http://aviator.edu/ would cost about $29,000, lodging not included.

As an alternative, buying a twin commanche off ebay or barnstormers might be the way to go. Say acquisition cost is about 40k and training takes a year. 3k for insurance, 3k annual, 1k tie down, 7k fuel cost, and 1k independent CFI. Sell plane at 3k loss to get it sold. Total cost is 18k.

I didn't count costs of checkrides and the like because those are the same for the different options.

A few concerns I have:
These time building programs would probably play the "under the hood/safety pilot PIC" game, so the experience might not be as good as owning my own twin.

If it was as simple as my made up numbers then obviously buying a twin would be the way to go, but I have my doubts. I tried to do the same thing to save money with my primary training. I bought a 150, got an auto fuel STC and by lugging 5 gallon gas cans around I flew for $25 an hour. However, when all was said and done I didn't really save a whole lot compared to if I had just rented and did my training that way. Do you think that this would also be likely to happen with twin time building?

A $10,000 gap is certainly nothing to scoff at. In theory, I could do the whole safety pilot thing myself and split the cost then the time building only costs 9k. In reality, I don't see anyone willing to pay that much up front and I would likely be flying alone or letting someone sit right seat for free. If I let people sit right seat for free then I'm sure there'd be no shortage of takers.

Before someone says that I should beg to sit right seat in someone else's twin, or work as a MEI, I would like to clarify the situation. No one doing MEI training at my home field since there has been no demand and the flight school got rid of their twin. That, combined with 6 month winters here mean that it would take forever to build time even as an instructor.

Also, for those who think it's somehow unethical or a financially bad decision to pay for time building, I would say that if paying to get it done shaves years off of struggling to build time for free, and/or it gets one into a decent paying job years sooner, it's worth it.

I'm sure people have lots of stories of the struggles and time they had to spend to crack the multi-time nut. I'm looking for most efficient/cheapest/what would you do differently if you could do it over for that multi-engine time.

 

[Kritchlow]

I have zero hours multi-engine time and I was curious as to the most efficient way to get a multi-engine rating, MEI, and 100 hours of multi-time.

ATP flight school would cost about $35,000 for multi-engine rating, MEI, and time building. Lodging cost is included in that.

http://aviator.edu/ would cost about $29,000, lodging not included.

As an alternative, buying a twin commanche off ebay or barnstormers might be the way to go. Say acquisition cost is about 40k and training takes a year. 3k for insurance, 3k annual, 1k tie down, 7k fuel cost, and 1k independent CFI. Sell plane at 3k loss to get it sold. Total cost is 18k.

I didn't count costs of checkrides and the like because those are the same for the different options.

A few concerns I have:
These time building programs would probably play the "under the hood/safety pilot PIC" game, so the experience might not be as good as owning my own twin.

If it was as simple as my made up numbers then obviously buying a twin would be the way to go, but I have my doubts. I tried to do the same thing to save money with my primary training. I bought a 150, got an auto fuel STC and by lugging 5 gallon gas cans around I flew for $25 an hour. However, when all was said and done I didn't really save a whole lot compared to if I had just rented and did my training that way. Do you think that this would also be likely to happen with twin time building?

A $10,000 gap is certainly nothing to scoff at. In theory, I could do the whole safety pilot thing myself and split the cost then the time building only costs 9k. In reality, I don't see anyone willing to pay that much up front and I would likely be flying alone or letting someone sit right seat for free. If I let people sit right seat for free then I'm sure there'd be no shortage of takers.

Before someone says that I should beg to sit right seat in someone else's twin, or work as a MEI, I would like to clarify the situation. No one doing MEI training at my home field since there has been no demand and the flight school got rid of their twin. That, combined with 6 month winters here mean that it would take forever to build time even as an instructor.

Also, for those who think it's somehow unethical or a financially bad decision to pay for time building, I would say that if paying to get it done shaves years off of struggling to build time for free, and/or it gets one into a decent paying job years sooner, it's worth it.

I'm sure people have lots of stories of the struggles and time they had to spend to crack the multi-time nut. I'm looking for most efficient/cheapest/what would you do differently if you could do it over for that multi-engine time.

A couple things jump out at me..

1) A year to complete training? Probably three days should do it. How long it takes to build 100 hours is up to you, but if you're in a hurry, and it seems as though you are, I think you could advertise the airplane for sale as soon as you buy it.

2) What decent paying flying job will you get with 100 multi?

 

[JHW]

...I bought a 150, got an auto fuel STC and by lugging 5 gallon gas cans around I flew for $25 an hour. However, when all was said and done I didn't really save a whole lot compared to if I had just rented and did my training that way. Do you think that this would also be likely to happen with twin time building?

Do exactly the same thing except with an apache. Put 500 hours on it and then sell it to someone looking to do the same thing.

 

[SkyDog58]

As an alternative, buying a twin commanche off ebay ...

Ebay would not be a prime choice in my opinion. Trade-a-Plane, Controller and Barnstormer (which you mention) would be much better.

I think buying your own plane could be a solid idea. You might also consider contacting the former MEI at the flight school that sold their twin. He may want to go in on it with you so that he can provide training in it. There may be other pilots in you area that would like to get their ME ticket or who have it but want to maintain currency / build hours. Insurance would be something to pay close attention to in this case.

Time buying is something that a lot of people have done but before paying a flight school for it, I'd go the ownership route in a heartbeat.

 

[rookie1255]

The organized programs take about a month. I have a hard time scheduling lessons at the local FBO, so I figure it'd take at least that much time to do it on my own.

As for getting a job, ok, maybe no decent job with 100 multi, but as least A job. Cape Air is always hiring. I have a college degree. Rumor has it 100 multi is enough. However, I'm not too excited about the $9 hourly pay to sit right seat in a Cessna 402. You are guaranteed 40 hours a week though. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/cape_air

I was thinking twin comanche over apache due to fuel burn and maintenance costs. The reason I say Ebay is that you are more likely to pay closer to market value since an auction better represents market value. In ads people just ask for whatever they feel like their planes are worth. Plus, I hate the haggle game where you try to get a good deal and/or have to lowball someone with some ridiculous offer because you feel they listed their plane too high. In an ebay auction, one should have an easier time reselling the airplane for close to what was paid for it in a short amount of time. In a classified ad that plane could sit there stagnant for a long time with an asking price while trying to resell it after training.

 

[frfly172]

Get your rating from one of the schools that specializes in multi ratings over a weekend. Then go out and buy an Apache ,and fly .I did miy time in a beech Travelair,that I owned.

 

[pilottim]

What's your current experience level/hours flown? Are you trying to stay where you are located, or willing to move?

 

[NJP_MAN]

Fun fact. Cape Air will hire you with a fresh multi. Trust me I know.

 

[Fearless Tower]

With the current twin market, I think you would be best off getting the ME rating and then buying a cheap twin and flying the crap out if it. I don't think you will find a decent a Twin Comanche for $40k. Probably going to pay double that for a PA30.

I'd suggest looking for an Apache or Travel Air. Might even be able to get into an early model 310.

Just don't expect that you will be able to sell your twin for what you paid for it and factor that into your cost comparison.

 

[Fearless Tower]

2) What decent paying flying job will you get with 100 multi?

No one is going to get a 'decent' job with 100ME, but you can at least get a paying job with that time so you aren't compelled to continue paying for time-building.

 

[Henning]

With the current twin market, I think you would be best off getting the ME rating and then buying a cheap twin and flying the crap out if it. I don't think you will find a decent a Twin Comanche for $40k. Probably going to pay double that for a PA30.

I'd suggest looking for an Apache or Travel Air. Might even be able to get into an early model 310.

Just don't expect that you will be able to sell your twin for what you paid for it and factor that into your cost comparison.

You're actually better off to buy the plane first and do your multi in it, it helps your insurance rates.

 

[poadeleted20]

Get a job as an instructor with an operator which runs a flight school including ME training as well as a charter operation. Company instructors usually get cut-rate ME rating training, and once you get the rating, you can be designated an SIC for their charters. As a designated SIC, you can ride along on charters when there's a seat available even if only one pilot is required You will get ME PIC time whenever you're flying the twins at someone else's expense (like from the right seat every other leg with pax/cargo, or on empty legs where you can be in the left seat).

 

[Art VanDelay]

Do exactly the same thing except with an apache. Put 500 hours on it and then sell it to someone looking to do the same thing.

My thoughts exactly !

 

[James331]

The organized programs take about a month. I have a hard time scheduling lessons at the local FBO, so I figure it'd take at least that much time to do it on my own.

As for getting a job, ok, maybe no decent job with 100 multi, but as least A job. Cape Air is always hiring. I have a college degree. Rumor has it 100 multi is enough. However, I'm not too excited about the $9 hourly pay to sit right seat in a Cessna 402. You are guaranteed 40 hours a week though. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/cape_air

I was thinking twin comanche over apache due to fuel burn and maintenance costs. The reason I say Ebay is that you are more likely to pay closer to market value since an auction better represents market value. In ads people just ask for whatever they feel like their planes are worth. Plus, I hate the haggle game where you try to get a good deal and/or have to lowball someone with some ridiculous offer because you feel they listed their plane too high. In an ebay auction, one should have an easier time reselling the airplane for close to what was paid for it in a short amount of time. In a classified ad that plane could sit there stagnant for a long time with an asking price while trying to resell it after training.

Meh, cape air as well as the regional will take someone with a fresh multi rating if they have the TT and all the other ATP mins.

Heck they'll take a ATP with 15hrs of multi if you apply.

Same with the regionals.

Personally I hear cape is a nice gig once you make capt, which I hear is a super quick upgrade.

Most turbine drop zones will put you left seat in a king air, twotter or skyvan with 100tt and a fresh multi, you'll log way more time than at cape and it'll be twin turbine PIC, plus probably could clear 35k a year with free housing.

There are also plenty of high paying jobs which don't give a hoot about multi time, just as long as you have turbine time, pic time, etc.

If it were me I would not, not now not ever, pay to log time (outside of personal flying) after my CPL.

 

[ChemGuy]

I live near Atlanta, GA. The local school I use wants >$300/hr for a Twin Commanche. I think I will be going here for my Multi. The cost per hour difference would pay for the trip and then some.
http://rmflight.com/N2882C.html

Multi time build at $189/hr sounds better than owning. If you fly some hours with a safety pilot/time builder its really cheap.

 

[Henning]

I live near Atlanta, GA. The local school I use wants >$300/hr for a Twin Commanche. I think I will be going here for my Multi. The cost per hour difference would pay for the trip and then some.
http://rmflight.com/N2882C.html

Multi time build at $189/hr sounds better than owning. If you fly some hours with a safety pilot/time builder its really cheap.

You can operate a Travelair or Apache for that, charge others that, and build your time for free.

 

[ChemGuy]

I agree with that Henning. If you had, or could get, the capitol to buy one and were willing to keep up with the maintenance. If all you wanted to do was get some multi time, $189/hr wet for a twin is the best deal I have found.

 

[bobmrg]

If you can afford it, do it! Great airplane. I did my MEL in a Twinkie and have many hours of Part135 flying in them.

Bob Gardner

 

[Kritchlow]

Fun fact. Cape Air will hire you with a fresh multi. Trust me I know.

I can't remember... You are with Cape Air, correct?
It seems this is indeed the best way to go. Get paid, get REAL experience, and have an opportunity to upgrade at the airline.

 

[NJP_MAN]

I can't remember... You are with Cape Air, correct?
It seems this is indeed the best way to go. Get paid, get REAL experience, and have an opportunity to upgrade at the airline.

I was. However training is so slow at the moment due to lack of instructors and captains in general. I was offered a position flying a citation so I had to jump on it. The culture at 9k was second to none and it's a shame they are suffering from the regionals ability to take all the 1500 hr pilots.

 

[Blueangel]

Best of luck for your success in the training for ME time. If starting pay was decent I would get my ATP and MEI in a heartbeat.

 

[Kritchlow]

I was. However training is so slow at the moment due to lack of instructors and captains in general. I was offered a position flying a citation so I had to jump on it. The culture at 9k was second to none and it's a shame they are suffering from the regionals ability to take all the 1500 hr pilots.

Ahh... Okay, well good luck with the Citation! I flew them for many years.. 550, 560XL, 680, and 750.
Good airplanes in so many ways.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Ahh... Okay, well good luck with the Citation! I flew them for many years.. 550, 560XL, 680, and 750.
Good airplanes in so many ways.

Thanks. I'm in a 525 (M2) and a P180 Avanti.

 

[Kritchlow]

Thanks. I'm in a 525 (M2) and a P180 Avanti.

The 525 is one I've never flown.. I believe the 525 encompasses several in the CJ family, right? The CJ4 I heard is a completely different animal but the same type.

Anyway, good luck!!

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread...

 

[NJP_MAN]

The 525 is one I've never flown.. I believe the 525 encompasses several in the CJ family, right? The CJ4 I heard is a completely different animal but the same type.

Anyway, good luck!!

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread...

I like the Garmin G3000. Owner might be getting a 3+ down the line so the 3000 in the m2 is good experience

 

[uncreative]

...
Most turbine drop zones will put you left seat in a king air, twotter or skyvan with 100tt and a fresh multi, you'll log way more time than at cape and it'll be twin turbine PIC, plus probably could clear 35k a year with free housing.

....

Is that a typo, or is there some exemption to needing a CPL (and the requisite 250 hours) to fly skydivers. This is extremely relevant to my current situation.

 

[Henning]

Is that a typo, or is there some exemption to needing a CPL (and the requisite 250 hours) to fly skydivers. This is extremely relevant to my current situation.

There are exemptions on the CPL issue for skydiving and glider clubs, but there is no way in hell you'll be flying a turbine twin with less than 1000tt just due to insurability. You'll be flying a 182 or 205 or similar that is uninsured.

 

[JHW]

if I think back to college days, here's how it works. If you turn up near a drop zone with enough turbine time to meet their insurance mins, a special drop zone pilot detector rings inside their building. The owner then sends a cute girl who works for him to find you and cajole you into wasting all your sundays giving elevator rides in their old king air.